Think I might be in trouble.

[LadyG]

2 hours ago, Bee said:

This is a terrible tale of what happens all too frequently with boats. In the years that I have been boating the 'Professionals' have moved in. No longer is boating a do it yourself pastime, buying, selling, surveying, repairing, installing gas and electric, engine repairs, painting and much more is now entrusted to expensive 'Professionals' who advertise their expensive services to people who think the work is beyond them or even illegal to tackle and trust boatyards to do the work properly and on time. All too often the people doing the work are not that great or experienced, the jobs are complex, the original fit outs are not built with any future access in mind and some jobs can turn out much more difficult than the original estimate or quote allowed for. If the owner knew more about his or her boat and its systems some of this grief could be avoided. Most of the stuff that really matters with boats is not shiny or varnished - its rusty, greasy, oily and hidden so that really is the stuff to learn. 

Do you service your own car?

[Arthur Marshall]

On 29/08/2023 at 12:31, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

 So you seam quite happy to get ripped off and put up with a sub-standard job and not the one you paid for. Maybe it’s because of boaters like yourself that seam to just put up with these sub-standard yards, that these yards continue to rip people off and are allowed to do inferior work, a bit like the OP.

Sorry, I missed that particular stack of insults. You do seem rather fond of flinging them about. You obviously haven't much experience of boating, or, really, of dealing with any modern business which supposedly offers a service.

Maybe it's because they all got fed up with aggressive (if inexperienced) boaters like yourself that some of them decided it wasn't worth doing a decent job.

[Bee]

1 hour ago, LadyG said:

Do you service your own car?

Yes, and the rest of the family as well. There are a few things that I don't touch, timing belts are a bit too critical and really hard to get at, some electrical things I leave well alone but there's not very much that I don't do. Most people who grew up with old Morris Minors and the like and never had much money just naturally did stuff like that, some of us who are naturally mean still do.

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

2 hours ago, Arthur Marshall said:

Sorry, I missed that particular stack of insults. You do seem rather fond of flinging them about. You obviously haven't much experience of boating, or, really, of dealing with any modern business which supposedly offers a service.

Maybe it's because they all got fed up with aggressive (if inexperienced) boaters like yourself that some of them decided it wasn't worth doing a decent job.

Just saying your obviously happy putting up with sub standard work and paying for it, knowing it’s sub standard. Maybe they thought it wasn’t worth doing a decent job because they didn't need to, as boaters like yourself put up with it and were happy to put up with it. Nothing to do with experience of boating or dealing with modern business, it’s about not getting ripped off and being taken for a fool and who mentioned anything about getting aggressive, you just got to use the right people, treat them with respect and they’ll treat you the same and do a good job, when needed.

Edited August 30, 2023 by BoatinglifeupNorth

[LadyG]

6 hours ago, Bee said:

Yes, and the rest of the family as well. There are a few things that I don't touch, timing belts are a bit too critical and really hard to get at, some electrical things I leave well alone but there's not very much that I don't do. Most people who grew up with old Morris Minors and the like and never had much money just naturally did stuff like that, some of us who are naturally mean still do.

I think you will find most people don't, they take their cars to a garage where the equipment, tools and qualified personnel maintain them. They don't have garage full of tools or any experience of things mechanical. 

 

 

[blackrose]

3 hours ago, LadyG said:

I think you will find most people don't, they take their cars to a garage where the equipment, tools and qualified personnel maintain them. They don't have garage full of tools or any experience of things mechanical. 

 

 

 

That really depends on who you know. You don't really need a garage full of tools to do a basic service on a car. I know lots of people who who work on their own vehicles. But it has changed since the 60s and 70s partly because cars are more difficult to work on these days so what you describe is becoming the norm.

 

It's the same on boats, but not because they're particularly difficult to work on. I meet more and more people on boats who haven't got a clue and frankly just aren't interested. That's fine as long as they can find people to do the work, are happy with often substandard jobs (because nobody cares about your boat like you), and they don't mind paying through the nose for it.

Edited August 31, 2023 by blackrose

[Narc]

Sounds like a right dodgy company taking the absolute micky.

So sorry to hear this pal 

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

1 hour ago, blackrose said:

It's the same on boats, but not because they're particularly difficult to work on. I meet more and more people on boats who haven't got a clue and frankly just aren't interested. That's fine as long as they can find people to do the work, are happy with often substandard jobs (because nobody cares about your boat like you), and they don't mind paying through the nose for it.

Sometimes the boatyard/engineer/woodworker may not want the job due to the state of the boat, especially older boats with elderly owners, that haven’t been looked after and are filled with their clutter/belongings. Boatyards don't really want to work on boats like this, as they can see far more issues then the original job involves and know what the owner thinks is a 3 day fix could turn out to be a 3 month pain to do. This seams to be the case with some of the posters boats on here, when a boat and job like this are encountered they are often put to one side and become non priority and easier, quicker, jobs take priority to generate revenue.  

Edited August 31, 2023 by BoatinglifeupNorth

[Oddjob]

On 25/02/2023 at 19:39, david909 said:

So I bought a canal boat. A 60foot, 1994, trad' narrow boat. 
I'd not bought a boat before.
The brochure gave the appearance that the boat was in great shape. The survey I had done revealed a somewhat grittier picture, but I'd fallen in love and, on the strength of advice from the boat broker that the work that needed doing would cost me around £13-16k, I negotiated a stiff price reduction and went ahead with the purchase.
There was some serious mis-selling involved, which I will be looking to take action over. 
I took the boat to a nearby boatyard and was given a series of very reasonable figures for the various bits of work that needed doing that were beyond my skillset.
However, things have become nightmarish. They've already had £18,000 off me (because the hull needed completely replating instead of patching and apparently the steel cost £17k.) Everything they look at costs way more than originally stated or wasn't mentioned but "needs doing". New engine mounts. New propellor. I was told that a gasket set would cost a few hundred quid. That's now changed to £1800. I asked for a complete engine service and was told £380. THat's changed to "thousands if we go ahead with it, or put it back unserviced and take your chances". I'm looking at a final bill of around £30k+ for what amounts to hull replated with a single sheet of steel, and blacked, new anodes, engine mounts, a new propellor, the engine removed, cleaned, oil sump gasket replaced and engine replaced, a hatch into the diesel tank because "there's no other way of cleaning it out", and water tank cleaned and painted, and that's it. This makes the final cost of the boat north of £60k and the toilet still doesn't work and the inverter also doesn't work, despite both showing up as working in the survey I had done.
I'm on the verge of nervous collapse, if not actual bankruptcy over this.
Do these costs seem unusually high to anyone? (They do to me.) (This is not in London, or anywhere near London.)
I told them there was a strict budget involved but that has been ignored. I stand to lose somewhere around £50k on this as it stands.
I have no idea what to do or where to turn.

I had the engine removed due bad oil leak and poor access mounts replaced, leak fixed, new drive plate while engine out. Total bull £1300 inc parts labour and of course vat. While engine out I cleaned out bilge and 2 pack painted complete area paint supply in the £1300. The boat was 2003 I got her in April 2019 with 1995 hrs on engine sold 3 years later for same price and with 6010 hrs  on the engine. 
problem is there are sharks out there seeing your situation you are nothing more than a cash cow to keep bleeding dry. Our boat I did not do a survey as survey was there from 1 year before I went round checking what he had flagged up. Still the cheap sods Who I got her from still had me over over some minor issues. However Karma got them with the boat they brought within 2 weeks of me buying their old one was condemned by the surveyor as the gas locker completely rusted out survey before buying not after I thinks. couldn’t stop laughing for a week 

By the way complete engine service £ 400 tops plus gaskets as required not a complete set, if they charge for a set take from the left over gaskets as head gasket is very expensive if brought on its own so take back the left overs you paid for it it’s yours not theirs. 
hope it comes good for you

 

best regards Ken

[ditchcrawler]

2 hours ago, blackrose said:

 

That really depends on who you know. You don't really need a garage full of tools to do a basic service on a car. I know lots of people who who work on their own vehicles. But it has changed since the 60s and 70s partly because cars are more difficult to work on these days so what you describe is becoming the norm.

 

It's the same on boats, but not because they're particularly difficult to work on. I meet more and more people on boats who haven't got a clue and frankly just aren't interested. That's fine as long as they can find people to do the work, are happy with often substandard jobs (because nobody cares about your boat like you), and they don't mind paying through the nose for it.

I did until I said good by to the Land Rover BMC1300 and Diesel Chevette that needed monthly oil changes. Now its once a year MOT and service at the local garage.

[Paul C]

As I see it, many boats in the canal network are BER (beyond economic repair). After all, you don't see too many 1995 cars on the road any more, for a reason.

 

DIY ability, or maintaining a boat when uneconomical to do so, can stretch that but a lot of boats are in 'managed decline'.

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

8 minutes ago, Paul C said:

As I see it, many boats in the canal network are BER (beyond economic repair). After all, you don't see too many 1995 cars on the road any more, for a reason.

 

DIY ability, or maintaining a boat when uneconomical to do so, can stretch that but a lot of boats are in 'managed decline'.

Often the owners of these boats don't see this and they expect the repairer/engineer to be prepared to work in and around their mess and neglect. 

Edited August 31, 2023 by BoatinglifeupNorth

[Alan de Enfield]

16 minutes ago, Paul C said:

As I see it, many boats in the canal network are BER (beyond economic repair). After all, you don't see too many 1995 cars on the road any more, for a reason.

 

DIY ability, or maintaining a boat when uneconomical to do so, can stretch that but a lot of boats are in 'managed decline'.

 

Thats a pretty good analogy.

 

Our 'classic' 1997 Campeer van has just had to have £1000 spent on welding, we have just had a new clutch and cambelt which was another £1000 and she will be having her suspension 'lifted' (as she has sagged at the back end) when she has her MOT next week.

 

I cannot see that we will be spending any more big chunks of money on her as you get to the point of 'is it really worth it', but, on the other side of the coin is that we do a lot more miles in her than we do in the boat and the boat costs a lot more to 'run' and moor than the 'van' does.

 

[Paul C]

Good point about the relative mileage (or, relative hours used) but 1) some things seize up/etc from not being used eg batteries left to discharge; and 2) boats are sitting in water, so it's always a cooler, damper environment than average.

[magnetman]

Boat hulls are a lot thicker than car bodies and structural parts. 

 

 

One of the big issues with canal boats is that insurance companies seem to want to have 4mm remaining thickness on the underwater parts. 

 

This is actually a lot of steel. Much thinner than this will not result in sinking. 

 

Many boats will have been overplated unnecessarily because of this figure being used by surveyors.

 

When I was younger and far more cynical I was certain that surveyors are simply giving work to boatyards and getting kickbacks. 

 

I'm less cynical than I used to be but still go that way somewhat. 

 

 

[david909]

So, I am aboard.
Yesterday I moved the boat down to Fazeley, intending to carry on through to Birmingham today.

Now awaiting engineer to return with parts, to remedy the coolant reservoir having emptied completely.

They let me take the boat away with no mooring spikes and no water key!
What an adventure. It's a good job it's warm and sunny.
 

[john.k]

A boat is a hole in the water you pour money into............a very old saying.

[agg221]

49 minutes ago, david909 said:

So, I am aboard.

They let me take the boat away with no mooring spikes and no water key!
What an adventure. It's a good job it's warm and sunny.
 

That bit is quite normal - you are very much on your own when it comes to accessories. They either come with the boat or they don't and you certainly won't get given them by a broker or a boatyard.

 

However, the learning curve for such things is not very long or steep. Get yourself a CRT key, a hose for filling the water tank, the keys to undo the water and diesel filler caps, an anti-vandal key for locks, a couple of mooring spikes and a hammer and personally I would add a couple of goat chains for mooring to piling (I prefer them to nappy pins). That should be about it for now.

 

Oh and do check how much diesel you have in the tank!

 

On the plus side, you now have control of costs and any work that you need/want doing you can decide whether to do yourself or have done, or put it off until you can afford it.

 

Alec

Edited September 9, 2023 by agg221

[IanD]

1 hour ago, agg221 said:

That bit is quite normal - you are very much on your own when it comes to accessories. They either come with the boat or they don't and you certainly won't get given them by a broker or a boatyard.

 

However, the learning curve for such things is not very long or steep. Get yourself a CRT key, a hose for filling the water tank, the keys to undo the water and diesel filler caps, an anti-vandal key for locks, a couple of mooring spikes and a hammer and personally I would add a couple of goat chains for mooring to piling (I prefer them to nappy pins). That should be about it for now.

 

Oh and do check how much diesel you have in the tank!

 

On the plus side, you now have control of costs and any work that you need/want doing you can decide whether to do yourself or have done, or put it off until you can afford it.

 

Alec

 

Do the threaded tap connectors on hoses like this fit CRT water points, or are they non-standard? I know perfectly well what water point taps look like, but exact size matters...

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Hozelock-Ltd-B0056GUJ1I-Reel-Hose/dp/B0056GUJ1I/

 

(asking because I need to buy one...)

[cuthound]

1 hour ago, john.k said:

A boat is a hole in the water you pour money into............a very old saying.

 

And a marina is a hole in the water into which others pour money...

 

[LadyG]

Most CRT taps have a metal brass thread, male. My brass hose fitting fits them all,  sometimes you find someone has added an adaptor for a push fit connector, this may be removed or you may have the female on the other end of your hose.

Edited September 9, 2023 by LadyG

[Hudds Lad]

17 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

Do the threaded tap connectors on hoses like this fit CRT water points, or are they non-standard? I know perfectly well what water point taps look like, but exact size matters...

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Hozelock-Ltd-B0056GUJ1I-Reel-Hose/dp/B0056GUJ1I/

 

(asking because I need to buy one...)

The small yellow connector with the removable white adapter will do every tap we've come across so far, so yes.

[IanD]

Just now, LadyG said:

Most CRT taps have a metal brass thread, my brass hose fitting fits them all,  sometimes you find someone has added an adaptor for a push fit connector, this may be removed or you have the female on the other end of your hose.

I know that, I was asking if anyone knew whether the Hozelock (and similar) screw-on tap connectors (as in the link) fitted CRT taps... 😉

Just now, Hudds Lad said:

The small yellow connector with the removable white adapter will do every tap we've come across so far, so yes.

Thanks 🙂

[MtB]

23 minutes ago, IanD said:

Do the threaded tap connectors on hoses like this fit CRT water points, or are they non-standard?

 

I notice two types of CRT water tap. One with a 3/4'bsp thread on the outlet which will take the hose you linked to, but another type with a plain barbed spigot sticking out of the box, designed to have a plain end of 1/2" hose pushed onto it, and secured with a Jubilee clip should you wish.

 

Very occasionally I've seen taps with a 5/8"bsp threaded nose which I think the white adaptor is for. Not seen one for a long while though. Too many complaints probably!

[IanD]

4 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

I notice two types of CRT water tap. One with a 3/4'bsp thread on the outlet which will take the hose you linked to, but another type with a plain barbed spigot sticking out of the box, designed to have a plain end of 1/2" hose pushed onto it, and secured with a Jubilee clip should you wish.

 

Very occasionally I've seen taps with a 5/8"bsp threaded nose which I think the white adaptor is for. Not seen one for a long while though. Too many complaints probably!

 

There don't seem to be many of the barbed-spigot types around, at least where this was the only type and there wasn't also a threaded one -- but thanks for the reminder... 😉

 

Reminder to self -- have a spare adaptor as well, so if it breaks you can still fill up with water. DAMHIK...

Edited September 9, 2023 by IanD