Engine just failed - generator advice needed

[Craig1]

Hi all

 

So my engine won't start.  I'm stuck in the ice so not going anywhere, but still want to get the stove going tomorrow! (Morso back boiler pump arrangement means I've got to charge the batteries or move family and pets off the boat to somewhere else warmer!).

 

So I'm not panicking about the situation, I suspect at best a fuel filter change is needed, or maybe the fuel pump has had it.  Anyway that's for tomorrow.

 

If I can't fix it tomorrow then I'll be hiring a generator to tide me over, buy I've not had one before - like I say I'll hire one, so what sort? Does it matter?  And can I just plug it straight into the shore line socket and it'll just feed the batteries when I turn the battery charger on just like shore line power?

 

Can't go wrong in the summer can it?

 

cheers,

 

Craig

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Craig

[Tonka]

which part of the country are you?

[Craig1]

I'm on the Macc.  Bit of a shortage of engineers up here.

[BEngo]

Do you want petrol, or diesel? How much power do you need?

 

If petrol, look for a Honda.  The EU20i  has a good reputation.  Think where you will put it whilst it is running as petrol engines produce CO which you do not want in  the boat.  Also think where you will store the petrol and the genny whilst not running.  Petrol vapour is heavier than air and will build up in your bilges till something like an oven, or  a stove sets it off.

 

If diesel get the quietest you can afford.  All the open frame ones are horrendously noisy.  Diesels are much safer though and do not produce CO, generally.  They are heavy so siting it may be difficult.

 

Once you have a genny it should just connect to the shoreline input and, whilst running, behave just like having mains, but with limited capacity.  You may need to make up a suitable lead to connect the genny to the shoreline.

 

Check with the hirer about earthing requirements for the genny.

 

Many do not like the continuous drone of other folks generators, so try to be a fair distance from other boats or canals properties, and comply with the CRT rules on the times for running one.

 

N

[dmr]

There are some really cheap small petrol generators available, go and buy one, less stress than hiring and might not work out that much more expensive (or even cheaper) if the repair takes some time (injection pump?). They will be ok to keep your batteries charged.  

Maybe improvise a little box to keep it dry.

Screwfix do a 700w Impax for less than £200, they might even deliver to the boat.

Check that 700w will drive your charger.

They are surprisingly quiet for a cheap jobbie.

Several years ago we had an injection pump failure and a little Impax genny saved us, though a kind forum member lent us his so I didn't even need to buy one.

[Craig1]

Thanks BEngo, should I not be able to fix it, I'll bear your advice on storing the generator and the fuel.

 

As for being away from other boats, the ice is an inch thick here, so nowt I can do about that!

 

Craig

[Craig1]

Thanks dmr, 

 

I'll have to check how much power the charger needs.  I didn't consider that at all.

[dmr]

9 minutes ago, Craig1 said:

Thanks dmr, 

 

I'll have to check how much power the charger needs.  I didn't consider that at all.

 

A few chargers, like the little Victron, have an optional low power setting which is good for this sort of thing.

and the little Impax is quiet enough to use near to other boats in the daytime, especially if you improvise a little house for it (maybe made out of bags of coal).

[Craig1]

Good idea about the bags, good interim measure.  Think I'll be buying a genny anyway.  When things go wrong there's always a big stress.  Continuous cruising with family on board definitely amplifies all problems!  At least I'm not on a river.  I hate breaking down on a river.  Mega stress.

[LadyG]

I saw a boater with a little yellow suitcase generator yesterday, it was remarkably quiet, so Honda are not the only brand available. But of course reliability is something you probably need to factor in with family especially.

Edited December 12, 2022 by LadyG

[zenataomm]

You don't say why your engine won't start.

Is it because the batteries are too flat to turn it over fast enough?

Or are the batteries flat because constant turning the key wouldn't start it and now they're flat?

Wouldn't it start because the cold has turned the diesel to wax?

Or is it something else?

[Tony1]

I was talking to a boater last week who was trying to convince me that a generator would be a good idea, and I'm still pondering. 

 

If I do go for one, I think this looks a good compromise between the expensive hondas and the cheap/noisy models you can get. 

 

https://www.generatorwarehouse.co.uk/hyundai-hy1000si.html

 

I do think a sound deflecting wooden box or shield is the way to go, though. Perhaps one that you assemble for use when needed, but keep it as separate sheets for more compact storage.

Perhaps leave one side open (the side that faces onto the canal), and ideally add some soundproofing sheets.  

 

Edited December 12, 2022 by Tony1

[Jen-in-Wellies]

If you get hold of a petrol generator and start keeping petrol on board for the first time, remember to tell your boat insurance company. Most policies ask if you have petrol on board. If you've said no, then start doing it later without telling them, they can use it as an excuse not to pay out.

[MtB]

Also, don't be tempted with your box to muck about extending the exhaust pipe. Leave it exactly as it is because modifying petrol genny exhausts is bad news. It affects combustion and in extremis, there have been fatalities on boats caused by people who thought they knew better than the manu. 

[Tony Brooks]

And make sure there is no hindrance to drawing cooling air in and blowing it out.  Personally I would never box a Honda type suitcase generator in.

[blackrose]

9 hours ago, Tony1 said:

 

 

https://www.generatorwarehouse.co.uk/hyundai-hy1000si.html

 

I do think a sound deflecting wooden box or shield is the way to go, though. Perhaps one that you assemble for use when needed, but keep it as separate sheets for more compact storage.

Perhaps leave one side open (the side that faces onto the canal), and ideally add some soundproofing sheets.  

 

 

I think you'll find that any sound deadening box will cause an air-cooled suitcase generator like this to quickly overheat even if it's vented. Have a look at the user manual/ manufacturer's instructions before doing anything like that. If they wanted you to put your new generator inside a sound deadening box they'd make it as an accessory and sell it to you. They generally don't and for good reason.

 

I tried it many years ago with a Honda and the results weren't good. 

 

My current Honda generator is inside a metal frame housing but it's probably 70% air gaps and 30% frame and it's only to keep the weather out and prevent the generator getting nicked. It's not designed to reduce the sound.

Edited December 13, 2022 by blackrose

[Tony1]

24 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

I think you'll find that any sound deadening box will cause an air-cooled suitcase generator like this to quickly overheat even if it's vented. Have a look at the user manual/ manufacturer's instructions before doing anything like that. If they wanted you to put your new generator inside a sound deadening box they'd make it as an accessory and sell it to you. They generally don't and for good reason.

 

I tried it many years ago with a Honda and the results weren't good. 

 

My current Honda generator is inside a metal frame housing but it's probably 70% air gaps and 30% frame and it's only to keep the weather out and prevent the generator getting nicked. It's not designed to reduce the sound.

 

Thankyou for that, I think its very important for any future readers of this to be aware of the risks of enclosing a genny. 

I got a cheap suitcase genny when I first moved aboard and it was very noisy (and with an annoying sound characteristic too), so what I did was put four pieces of wood together to form a sort of box around it (with three sides and a roof), and the side facing the canal left open. It was a large box, and being open sided I thought it might be ok, but then I only ran it as a test for an hour or so, and so I never got to find out any overheating issues. 

 

You do see these things encased in boxes, so there should be a way of making it work safely (perhaps with an air circulating fan, and a very spacious box, who knows?), but I will not presume to suggest anything further  because I dont know enough, and have very little experience of it.  

 

OP, please consider my 'box' suggestion withdrawn. 

 

 

Edited December 13, 2022 by Tony1

[LadyG]

Read the data sheet, before purchase, it should tell you the dB. Less is more, as in more suitable.

[Craig1]

Thanks everyone for your input.  I'll be getting a genny and I'll definitely read the instruction manual!  I've seen these boxes you've debated so I'll do a bit of homework.  

 

The battery charger I've got is 30 amp - anyone know what generator output would be sufficient for this? 

 

PS Engine now fixed for anyone who's interested - it was the solenoid, all gunked up with oil.  Boat remains liveable!

[Tracy D'arth]

30A at 12V is 360W  Assume 60% charger efficiency, a 600W generator will be ample, not many this small so a 1kw upwards will be fine.

[mrsmelly]

Honda have never bettered imho the older style EX range. They are quieter than such as the eu models and last fifty million, billion years. They are still to be had in good nick quite often of flea bay. Fantastic bits of kit. I have one at my house as an absolute emergency back up for the oil boiler. Just sayin like.

[magnetman]

Seconded. Honda EX650, Best generator ever. I had an immaculate one but sadly left it outside in a box when I got a mooring with electric. Box turned out to not be weatherproof and it filled with water and drowned the generator. A lovely item that was. I've had two of them the first of which was running more or less every day and lasted several years when I gave it to a friend as the recoil had broken and I got another one.

 

Nice units. Really nice.

 

Yamaha did quite nice ones too. My mum had the EF1000 on her boat which was a good generator.

 

I don't like the EU10 or EU20. Too tinny and the noise is terrible once you actually load the thing up.

 

 

Edited December 14, 2022 by magnetman

[Alan de Enfield]

Funny they should crop up.

 

Yesterday unburied (from the back of the shed) my EX650 which has not been started for at least 2 years and the tank is full of petrol from that time.

 

Switched on, and after 4 'pulls' thought this isn't making any effot to start.

It started on the 6th pull, ran smooth and quiet as always - plugged a couple of things in to make sure it was putting out a bit of 240 and sure enough it was.

 

It is now sat at the front of the shed awaiting its call to duty.

 

I really should have brought the Kipor IG2000 back from the boat, but, we have what we have. The Honda will run some lights and a battery charger - even help keep the battery going if we need to use the Inverter for the air fryer.

[booke23]

4 hours ago, Tracy D'arth said:

30A at 12V is 360W  Assume 60% charger efficiency, a 600W generator will be ample, not many this small so a 1kw upwards will be fine.

 

Remember the charger will operate at close to 14v so factoring in 60% efficiency you'll need close to 700W continuous to run it. Still well within the capacity of a 1kw generator.

 

1 hour ago, magnetman said:

Seconded. Honda EX650, Best generator ever. I had an immaculate one but sadly left it outside in a box when I got a mooring with electric. Box turned out to not be weatherproof and it filled with water and drowned the generator. A lovely item that was. I've had two of them the first of which was running more or less every day and lasted several years when I gave it to a friend as the recoil had broken and I got another one.

 

Nice units. Really nice.

 

Yamaha did quite nice ones too. My mum had the EF1000 on her boat which was a good generator.

 

I don't like the EU10 or EU20. Too tinny and the noise is terrible once you actually load the thing up.

 

 

 

I have to agree. There are a few people using EU20i at my mooring and I've been very unimpressed with how noisy they are....noticeable in the boat even from 50 yards away.

 

You can hardly  hear the EX650 at 10 yards. Only snag is some modern electrics and chargers might not like the non pure sinewave output. 

[magnetman]

I wonder how the 8A DC charging coil on the EX650 would deal with a Lithium battery. Could be quite interesting. If you were running the genny to keep AC going for say 4 hours and also getting 8A out of it that would be 32Ah. Handy power.

 

Last person I saw running an EX650 for mains and DC was Ernie Kendall at Braunston turn in 1994.

 

One of my boats has a Honda 10 on it with charging coil and I start that using one of the LTO modules. Seems okay but it never gets discharged much. Perhaps if one were to attach a discharged Lithium battery it would get upset and burn out the coil. Or it could be self limiting somehow.

 

 

Edited December 14, 2022 by magnetman