Are boaters getting more selfish or is it just the world in general

[agg221]

2 hours ago, Tony1 said:

 

Tbh when sharing a double lock with a boat that has a few crew, I always make a point of asking people in advance what they want me to do in the locks.  

Sometimes they'll say 'just stay on the boat', and sometimes they prefer some help- which is fine of course.

And I'll quite happily work the double locks if there are a significantly older couple who seem a bit hesitant, or complete newbies .

But if someone just flatly refused to leave their boat- and especially with a crew- I'd probably back out of the lock, or not enter it. I'd tell them I'd changed my mind and was going to moor up short of the lock for a while. 

  

 

I think one has to make an assessment of the particular circumstances. With a single-hander or someone less mobile a lot of the time it will be easier all round if they stay on, although I would guess if you were the second in to a broad lock going down and an 11yr old was trying to close the gate behind you and clearly finding it hard work, you would probably nip off the counter to give them a hand.

 

With the boat in the broad locks, in practice we caught them up at the second of five. One of their crew worked the second lock with us; the boat then pulled in immediately after the lock to pick the crew-member up (in a flight!) and they didn't get off again. It was the end of the day and we were looking to moor about a mile beyond the bottom (and we wanted to get there before the shops shut as my elder daughter had been attacked by another boater's dog earlier that day which had destroyed her jeans so she needed some new ones). Otherwise we would probably have just let them go, which is rare for us since, as leisure boaters with a home mooring, we do usually need to stick to something like a schedule to make sure we can get home. On the narrow locks, fortunately the boat immediately ahead stopped briefly part-way through the flight to drop off some rubbish and since he wasn't doing any of the work on the locks, that meant he wasn't going ahead to set the next lock, so we got through the two locks in the time it took him to do that and got ahead of him - didn't see him again all day, despite the couple of hours at our mooring.

 

Alec

Edited September 11, 2022 by agg221

[cuthound]

1 hour ago, MtB said:

 

Fascinating! 

 

What hand signal do you use for, say 

"I am operating astern propulsion"

 

No need for hand signals to indicate that you are operating astern propulsion.  You can see the wash pattern being dragged in under the counter.

[David Mack]

3 hours ago, agg221 said:

We also had a couple of boats, one in the broad locks that we shared with, the other ahead of us in a narrow flight, where the crew absolutely refused to get off and work the locks, expecting us to do it for them.

Years ago I was single handing down the Thames in the days when, out of hours, you had to work the hydraulics manually by turning the hand wheel hundreds of turns to open and close the gates and paddles. There was a wide beam cruiser moored on the lock moorings when I arrived. I moored up behind it, filled the lock, opened the top gates and took my boat in. Then, without a word being spoken, the cruiser came in behind me. Nobody offered to help. I shut the top gates, then opened the bottom paddles. Still no offer of help. So I opened the bottom gates just far enough to leave a 7 ft gap between them, got back on my boat and motored out! I thought they could sort out the rest themselves!

[Wanderer Vagabond]

3 hours ago, agg221 said:

I have only once moored on a water point which, coincidentally also blocked a winding hole. We arrived an hour after dark in October, no moorings left in the line so stopped where we could, leaving the widest point of the winding hole still accessible but knowing it would be difficult if someone needed to wind a full length boat. We got up early the next morning in case anyone needed to use either the winding hole or the water point, then as soon as the first boat moved off the moorings we went in to their space, say 7.30am? Admittedly moving was by rope and pole as the engine refused to start (several hours later the fuel system was bled through) which wasn't ideal but we were ready to fend off if I couldn't steer it straight through past the moored boats between us and the mooring space. If anyone had needed the water point or the winding hole earlier we would have moved, whatever the time. It's just common courtesy.

 

Alec

I can fully sympathise with your illustrated issue and would not complain about it at all. When travelling on the Nene a couple of years back we were unable to find a mooring as the daylight started to go, so we spent the night on a lock mooring. Setting off first thing in the morning and, if anyone had come before, I'd have worked the lock for them. As you say it is a common courtesy.

 

With the boat photo'd at Braunston, unless the skipper was lying dead on the saloon floor, there was no justification at all for leaving the boat there. Anecdotally I know that he wasn't because the moorer who I was in conversation with said that they'd been sitting out on their chairs for some of the morning before I got there. Even if there was a medical emergency (which it seems there wasn't) there was a good boat length of mooring on the towpath opposite that could have been used. Should I happen to see this boat moored elsewhere, it is the one boat that I wont slow down for.

[David Mack]

2 hours ago, monkeyhanger said:

I was cycling along the towpath on the way home from my boat, when I stopped at Old Ford lock on the Regents canal. The lock had recently had a gate damaged and repaired, and I was interested to inspect the repair. A boat was coming up in the lock at the time, and I chatted to the guy about the condition of the gates. He pointed out that the bottom gates were leaking really badly. The lock filled and he opened the top gates and his partner started to move the boat out of the lock. The lockwheeler announced to me that he wasn't going to close the gates as they were a bit rickety. He boarded the boat and as the boat was adjacent to the top paddles, I pointed out to him that both were still raised. He shrugged his shoulders and continued on his way. AND this was a wide beam boat, so he could very easily have dropped one paddle and walked across his stern deck to the other one. Totally lazy and selfish.

Leaky bottom gates and leaving the top gates/paddles open is a sure fire way of draining the upper pound! Completely selfish.

[Tony1]

39 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

No need for hand signals to indicate that you are operating astern propulsion.  You can see the wash pattern being dragged in under the counter.

 

This is Jedi level stuff. 

Personally I read the body language of oncoming boaters- if their head twitches slightly to the left, it means they're about steer left.  

If they raise a G+T, pull in and get out of their way. 

They taught us this sort of thing in the CIA, but I'm not allowed to talk about it unless I kill you- and I couldn't kill a hound. 

 

 

[ditchcrawler]

9 hours ago, LadyG said:

Obviously I proceed with caution so that if something is coming the other way and is committed, I can engage astern, three toots, but I'm still going forwards at that point . I would expect him to slowdown, I might put my nav lights on to help him work out my direction of travel.

You have a lot more time than I do when in a bridgehole on a bend and a bow appears just in front of me. Revers and wind up is my first move. He will know which way I am going, he has nearly hit me on the snout. Now about that 3 toots, by then we have hit or he is well aware I am going backwards

[Captain Pegg]

9 hours ago, gatekrash said:

We did our summer cruise a few weeks ago, Droitwich over to Gayton way via the GU and then around the Coventry to come back.

 

In that time we experienced :

A boat who we followed through Braunston tunnel who proceeded to start dropping down through the top lock by themselves, even though they knew we were right behind them, and then refused to wait to share the next lock even though we asked them to. They then turned the next lock against a boat coming up, even though he was just coming into the lock landing, and told him that they thought he was going down 'Backwards ?' was his reply.

 

At Rugby there was another boat moored in the winding hole, despite there being space on the Armco 20 yards away. I asked him politely if he would like to move up so that he wasn't blocking it, his reply 'well is been ok so far'.

 

At Tardebigge wharf, a Black Prince boat was moored at the end of the Anglo Welsh yard completely blocking the bridge. It was impossible to get through at all. They had apparently stopped for water even though they had only picked the boat up 2 hours before. Fortunately one of the Anglo Welsh guys was still on site and 'directed' them.

 

The next day going down Tardebigge, we had 4 Black Prince boats moored at various places in the flight who had clearly spent the night there. The worst was a pair moored together in the curved pound above the reservoir. Their comment when they saw us coming was that they hoped we could get past (we did with a bounce off them and we are only 50 foot). I asked if they were going to move soon as the flight would be busy, 'no we are still having showers and haven't had breakfast yet'. Later we spoke to another Black Prince crew who were about to moor on a lock landing to have breakfast. They said that Black Prince had told them to do as many locks in the flight as they felt like and then moor up when they had done enough, so you can't blame the hirers. There is a CRT employed lengthsman at Tardebigge who was not pleased and was on his way to see BP to have words.

 

At the bottom of the flight we had someone so desperate to turn a lock on us that he'd opened both bottom paddles despite the top gate being wide open as the boat in front of him who was coming up had left it open for us. 

 

Yesterday we've done a short trip down to Worcester. Every single offside tail gate from Offerton down to Bilford had been left open, so someone clearly couldn't be bothered to walk back over the lock to close then and left it to be someone else's problem.

 

I've also lost track of just how many paddles have been left open.

 

We were only out for 3 weeks, what stuck in my mind was just how many things we'd seen in such a short time. I know it was peak season, so a lot of boats moving, but we've never come across so much 'couldn't give a toss' attitude before. And whilst a good proportion of the incidents were hirers so could be put down to ignorance, not all of it was.

 

 

 

I've moored overnight within the Tardebigge flight on a few occasions. What's selfish about that? 

[gatekrash]

1 hour ago, Captain Pegg said:

 

I've moored overnight within the Tardebigge flight on a few occasions. What's selfish about that? 

Nothing if you're ready to move relatively early in the morning before the flight gets busy, sh*t happens and sometimes you don't make it up or down before you need to stop, I get that. But blocking short pounds so that 2 boats can't pass just because you want your breakfast *is* selfish, and in breach of CRT's mooring obligations which state

 

"Don’t moor In locks, lock approaches or in lock flights".

 

Clearly the CRT lengthsman had the same view, hence his visit that morning to BP.

[LadyG]

3 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

You have a lot more time than I do when in a bridgehole on a bend and a bow appears just in front of me. Revers and wind up is my first move. He will know which way I am going, he has nearly hit me on the snout. Now about that 3 toots, by then we have hit or he is well aware I am going backwards

I'm assuming he can't see me , yet, and I can't see him!, Maybe his bow!

I use my sound signals, so maybe he will learn to use them in future.

I engage astern, but the boat will still be going forwards, then I have plenty of time to put in three short toots, before he has time to observe my wake!

Edited September 11, 2022 by LadyG

[Captain Pegg]

1 hour ago, gatekrash said:

Nothing if you're ready to move relatively early in the morning before the flight gets busy, sh*t happens and sometimes you don't make it up or down before you need to stop, I get that. But blocking short pounds so that 2 boats can't pass just because you want your breakfast *is* selfish, and in breach of CRT's mooring obligations which state

 

"Don’t moor In locks, lock approaches or in lock flights".

 

Clearly the CRT lengthsman had the same view, hence his visit that morning to BP.

 

Sometimes it just has to be done. The flight is too long to warrant stopping at top or bottom, particularly in winter.

 

In any case there are plenty of examples of visitor moorings within lock flights so it's a rubbish 'rule'. And who uses the lock landings on the intermediate locks of Tardebigge anyway?

 

The CRT maintenance guys would be better attending to the leaking gates that routinely result in empty pounds than bothering Black Prince.

 

ETA - there's pretty much always a CRT workboat moored somewhere on the Tardebigge flight.

Edited September 11, 2022 by Captain Pegg

[Iain_S]

8 hours ago, monkeyhanger said:

On the subject of lights, as I was approaching a bridge hole, a boat was coming towards me, and in my opinion he was nearer the bridge than me so I slowed right down to wait for him. He did the same, and we were both almost stationary when I decided to go though the bridge or we could have been there all day. As I started forward, the tunnel light on the other boat started flashing on and off. As I passed the steerer, I mentioned that perhaps he had a problem with his light. "No, I was just flashing you to come through" was the reply.

I quite often give the three shorts "horn signal" on the tunnel light, to indicate reverse propulsion, therefore giving way. Makes sense to use light as signal only of benefit to the boat heading towards, and saves making a racket!

[Arthur Marshall]

8 hours ago, agg221 said:

We were out a couple of weekends ago and experienced some weird behaviour. The closure of the T&M has put a lot more pressure on the top end of the SU so it was busier than usual, but still. Incidents from memory were:

 

Second one was coming back over Nantwich embankment. We were looking to moor in Nantwich but there were no spaces. As we were approaching the last boat in the line, elder daughter and I were on the counter, discussing whether we could moor beyond it. At this point, someone on the counter of the moored boat started shouting and screaming at us. I couldn't hear it exactly over the engine but did catch "@@XX keep going!" shouted several times along with various other obscenities. Bearing in mind that they had moored right at the last point, creating a git gap behind them, it was quite clear what their intentions were. In practice I don't think I would have wanted to moor next to them anyway!

 

Alec

Sounds like you met the same person at Nantwich I did. I pottered past at about 1mph and got a screamed obscenity laden burst of abuse for speeding that went on till I was out of sight.

[oboat]

On 03/07/2022 at 10:23, nicknorman said:

Well not off to a great start today, first bridge with bend the other side, we are virtually into bridge when large Woolwich bow appears on bend. I toot. He is well over to his left to get lined up for the bridge, fair enough it’s big boat. There is plenty of water on my left so I wave my arm  vigorously left showing that I’m going to pass on his left to make life easier for him and turn left a bit. But no, he applies lots of right rudder so we are on a collision course and he is just carrying on - well I’m sure if his enormous bow were to hit us, he would barely notice and certainly wouldn’t care. I then had to apply a lot of power to get out of his way - only just out of the bridge hole, as he carried on with no attempt to change speed or avoid the collision. We missed by inches no thanks to him.

 

I said “ I did signal I was going left because I thought it would be easier for you”. He said “I didn’t know what you meant.” What did he think it might mean? No hint of an apology for nearly ramming us. What an arsehole.

 

I know it doesn’t do to generalise but there do seem to be an above average proportion of entitled obnoxious arseholes driving historic boats, who think they are much more important than everyone else, and everyone else should get out of their way. I think having a enormous bow sticking up must be a compensation for their tiny genitals.

 

Unfortunately I was too traumatised to get the boat name, otherwise I would name and shame.

Unfortunately a lot of boaters do not bother to learn about sound signals!

 

[Alan de Enfield]

2 hours ago, oboat said:

Unfortunately a lot of boaters do not bother to learn about sound signals!

 

 

 

They don't really even need to 'learn' them - print out the 'chart' and stick it by the helm.

 

I posted this earlier in the thread :

 

 

 

 

 

 

Everyone keeps saying "dont bother with sound signals no one understands them"

 

Why not get folks to learn them - they have learnt to "pass red to red", is it so difficult to learn 3 or 4 sound signals.

 

C&RT could even provide a small 'sticker' when a boat licence is renewed (to put by the helm, much as some of the hire boat providers use).

 It could even be sponsored by an insurance company ! (Like the licence holders were)

 

 

Edited July 3 by Alan de Enfield

[Derek Porteous]

We came through the Big Lock, Middlewich yesterday morning. A boat was moored on the landing making the approach difficult. Curtains closed but as there was twitching we were pretty sure it was occupied. Excessive revving on our part to make a point. Once through we had to give up the plan to water up as there was another overnighter on the water point below the lock.

Yes, in our view manners are getting worse.

 

PS This was not at the crack of dawn but at 9 o’clock

Edited September 12, 2022 by Derek Porteous

[GUMPY]

9 minutes ago, Derek Porteous said:

This was not at the crack of dawn but at 9 o’clock

9am is the crack of dawn to some people😱

[Higgs]

_ _ .    ._ _ .    . . _ .  - My horn has an intermittent electrical fault. 

 

_____________ - Are you blind

 

 

 

Edited September 12, 2022 by Higgs

[monkeyhanger]

12 hours ago, Iain_S said:

I quite often give the three shorts "horn signal" on the tunnel light, to indicate reverse propulsion, therefore giving way. Makes sense to use light as signal only of benefit to the boat heading towards, and saves making a racket!

It doesn't make sense to me, I'm afraid. I very much doubt that many oncoming steerers would understand that sort of signalling. I certainly didn't when I encountered it. Far better to use maritime signals or even hand waving in my opinion, rather then something which has been transferred from the roads and is illegal on the roads anyway. Also, on a sunny day, flashes from a tunnel light may not be observed by the steerer of an oncoming boat, who may be distracted and looking away at the time it is taking place, or it may be misconstrued as sunlight reflecting off the glass.

Edited September 12, 2022 by monkeyhanger

[Rob-M]

5 minutes ago, monkeyhanger said:

I very much doubt that many oncoming steerers would understand that sort of signalling. I certainly didn't when I encountered it. Far better to use maritime signals or even hand waving in my opinion, rather then something which has been transferred from the roads and is illegal on the roads anyway.

Someone flashed their tunnel light to me a few weeks ago to let me through a bridge.  I could see from the water they were going astern so I was carrying on.  I said to the steerer that it was the first time anyone had ever flashed their light at me 

[Arthur Marshall]

1 minute ago, monkeyhanger said:

I very much doubt that many oncoming steerers would understand that sort of signalling. I certainly didn't when I encountered it. Far better to use maritime signals or even hand waving in my opinion, rather then something which has been transferred from the roads and is illegal on the roads anyway.

Rather like using the horn in a car, the only purpose of any sort of horn or light signal in a boat is to say, in effect, "I am here, be aware of it". Waving arms about sort of works as long as you remember that you might be misunderstood.

Horns are a waste of time, half of us are deaf and half the rest can't hear anything over the engine noise or the ghetto blaster on the roof. The remainder have got earphones in. I suppose using the maritime signals makes the self-righteous feel they can always blame the other person for an accident...

[Alan de Enfield]

10 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

I suppose using the maritime signals makes the self-righteous feel they can always blame the other person for an accident...

 

 

Its not a case of being self-righteous, its more a case of 'protection' in the event of an insurance claim.

 

[Momac]

 

2 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

Rather like using the horn in a car, the only purpose of any sort of horn .... signal in a boat is to say, in effect, "I am here, be aware of it". 

From a boating perspective that's not correct as has been explained earlier 

 

 

 

 

[Iain_S]

13 minutes ago, monkeyhanger said:

I very much doubt that many oncoming steerers would understand that sort of signalling. I certainly didn't when I encountered it. Far better to use maritime signals or even hand waving in my opinion, rather then something which has been transferred from the roads and is illegal on the roads anyway. Also, on a sunny day, flashes from a tunnel light may not be onserved by the steerer of an oncoming boat, who may be distracted and looking away at the time it is taking place, or it may be misconstrued as sunlight reflecting offthe glass.

Three short horn blasts, or light flashes, IS a maritime signal. I would agree that it is very much the minority of inland boaters who understand them, so it is always likely that any signal will not be acted on.

[Iain_S]

14 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

Rather like using the horn in a car, the only purpose of any sort of horn or light signal in a boat is to say, in effect, "I am here, be aware of it". Waving arms about sort of works as long as you remember that you might be misunderstood.

Horns are a waste of time, half of us are deaf and half the rest can't hear anything over the engine noise or the ghetto blaster on the roof. The remainder have got earphones in. I suppose using the maritime signals makes the self-righteous feel they can always blame the other person for an accident...

So why are horn signals are included in the BW Bylaws?

 

Which is why the light can be a better option.

 

Not just the self righteous, also the Marine and Coastguard Agency (who have jurisdiction over inland waterways, as well as salty ones)