Are boaters getting more selfish or is it just the world in general

[Iain_S]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Everyone keeps saying "dont bother with sound signals no one understands them"

 

Why not get folks to learn them - they have learnt to "pass red to red", is it so difficult to learn 3 or 4 sound signals.

 

C&RT could even provide a small 'sticker' when a boat licence is renewed (to put by the helm, much as some of the hire boat providers use).

 It could even be sponsored by an insurance company !

 

 

Missing from that list is long, short; meaning “No”.

 

I sometimes feel that canal users take some sort of perverted pride in NOT knowing horn signals, or some other aspects of basic boatmanship. (e.g. knots (and hitches!) and some of the comments regarding VHF radio)

 

It lowers the often perceived  aggressiveness of a horn signal if the headlamp is used instead.

[TheBiscuits]

1 hour ago, Sea Dog said:

Ok, ok - no need to get a toot on! 

 

I don't give two hoots.

 

.

 

.

 

.

 

 

Unless I'm turning to port, obviously!

 

[IanD]

Just now, Iain_S said:

Missing from that list is long, short; meaning “No”.

 

I sometimes feel that canal users take some sort of perverted pride in NOT knowing horn signals, or some other aspects of basic boatmanship. (e.g. knots (and hitches!) and some of the comments regarding VHF radio)

 

It lowers the often perceived  aggressiveness of a horn signal if the headlamp is used instead.

 

I don't think it's any kind of perverted pride, it's simply recognising that a large number of boaters -- probably the majority of boats actually moving when you include hire boats -- simply *don't* know what horn signals mean.

 

So if you urgently need to communicate your intention to pass on the left, which is better -- using a horn signal which is unlikely to be understood, or making a gesture that most people will understand?

[TheBiscuits]

1 minute ago, IanD said:

So if you urgently need to communicate your intention to pass on the left, which is better -- using a horn signal which is unlikely to be understood, or making a gesture that most people will understand?

 

For general conversation or for the MAIB enquiry?

 

"I sounded the correct signal (two short blasts in this case) immediately before taking avoiding action" sounds a lot better in maritime court than "I waved two fingers on my left hand at him and he still hit me!"

[IanD]

1 minute ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

For general conversation or for the MAIB enquiry?

 

"I sounded the correct signal (two short blasts in this case) immediately before taking avoiding action" sounds a lot better in maritime court than "I waved two fingers on my left hand at him and he still hit me!"

Not *that* kind of gesture... 😉

 

(anyway, one finger is more likely nowadays...)

[TheBiscuits]

13 hours ago, nicknorman said:

we are virtually into bridge when large Woolwich bow appears on bend. I toot.

 

So ignoring your sound signal that you were turning to starboard ...

 

A large Woolwich running with four feet above the water is trivial to shunt into the trees - he's empty!  It's the buggers running deeply laden with four inches of freeboard you want to be wary of ...

[Momac]

On 02/07/2022 at 11:17, Arthur Marshall said:

 When I worked Civil Service in Liverpool in the eighties the office lads had a great laugh throwing bananas at the black footballers.

 

It was the monkey chanting at a football match in the 1970s that put me off the game.

Apparently the chanting  still happens.

[nicknorman]

9 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

So ignoring your sound signal that you were turning to starboard ...

 

A large Woolwich running with four feet above the water is trivial to shunt into the trees - he's empty!  It's the buggers running deeply laden with four inches of freeboard you want to be wary of ...

There you go, another person who doesn't know the sound signals. One short toot means turning to stbd. One long toot means “I’m here”. It was the latter obviously, a 2 second toot. We have a button for that on the empirbus system, one momentary press gives a 2 second toot, saves having to keep your finger on the button. Well when I say “toot”, it’s actually a klaxon so it’s more of an “Awooooga”.

[TheBiscuits]

17 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

One long toot means “I’m here”. It was the latter obviously, a 2 second toot.

 

A long blast is supposed to be 5 or 6 seconds.

[Alan de Enfield]

19 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

A long blast is supposed to be 5 or 6 seconds.

 

 

• Rule(s) to be applied:Rule 32 (Definitions)
• Applying the Rule(s) and comments:In accordance with Rule 32 (c) (Definitions), the term prolonged blast means a blast of about four to six seconds duration.

 

 

• ule(s) to be applied:Rule 32 (Definitions)
• Applying the Rule(s) and comments:In accordance with Rule 32 (b) (Definitions), the term short blast means a blast of about one second’s duration.

 

39 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

There you go, another person who doesn't know the sound signals. One short toot means turning to stbd. One long toot means “I’m here”. It was the latter obviously, a 2 second toot.

 

 

Yup - you are correct, another person who doesn't know the Colregs.

[MtB]

10 hours ago, IanD said:

So if you urgently need to communicate your intention to pass on the left, which is better -- using a horn signal which is unlikely to be understood, or making a gesture that most people will understand?

 

Which is? Surely the whole thread is based on the ambiguity of gestures.

 

Boats need indicators like cars! 

 

[nicknorman]

Ok own goal, I shall have to add another 2 seconds to the empirbus programming. However 4 to 6 seconds is quite a long time and I don’t think I have ever heard such a long toot. Couple of seconds is the norm on the ground (water),

[IanD]

Just now, MtB said:

 

Which is? Surely the whole thread is based on the ambiguity of gestures.

 

Boats need indicators like cars! 

 

 

But then shiny boats won't use them, like BMW drivers... 😉

[Ray T]

13 hours ago, cuthound said:

 

I find very few boaters understand the sound signals...☹️

 

If I need to pass on the "wrong" side I point to myself, then extend my left arm, the point to the steerer of the other boat and extend my right arm. 

 

Unfortunately some people still don't understand what I am trying/want them to do... ☹️

 

I have a few of these laminated and keep them at the back of the boat. If occasionally I get asked "What is all that noise for?" or "What else did you get for Christmas?"

I hand a copy to the other boater.

 

The sound signals One short—intending to turn to the starboard. Two shorts—intending to turn to the port. Three shorts—running engines in reverse, i.e. slowing down or reversing. Five or more shorts—'What are your intentions?' Two long one short—wishing to overtake to the starboard side in a narrow channel. Two longs two shorts—wishing to overtake to the port side in a narrow channel. Long, short, long, short—leading vessel agreeing to be overtaken. One long—a warning when approaching a blind bend.

 

 

Being a retired "snotty yotty" I had to learn the sound signals for my exams.

 

The sound signals.docx

 

 

Edited July 4, 2022 by Ray T

[MtB]

4 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

But then shiny boats won't use them, like BMW drivers... 😉

 

Or worse, start the manoeuvre, THEN indicate what you're doing anyway. Like Audi drivers? 

[TheBiscuits]

Just now, nicknorman said:

Ok own goal, I shall have to add another 2 seconds to the empirbus programming. However 4 to 6 seconds is quite a long time and I don’t think I have ever heard such a long toot. Couple of seconds is the norm on the ground (water),

 

That's because most inland boaters don't know their sound signals ... as this thread has shown again!

 

One of the yottie instructors in the Med always said he had great trouble getting the English to do more than 2 seconds for a long blast and just as much trouble getting the French to stop after 5 seconds...

 

I work on the principle that I know them so I use them appropriately, but I am pleasantly surprised when the other boat understands them!

[MtB]

2 minutes ago, Ray T said:

 

I have a few of these laminated and keep them at the back of the boat. If occasionally I get asked "What is all that noise for?" or "What else did you get for Christmas?"

I hand a copy to the other boater.

 

The signals One short—intending to turn to the starboard. Two shorts—intending to turn to the port. Three shorts—running engines in reverse, i.e. slowing down or reversing. Five or more shorts—'What are your intentions?' Two long one short—wishing to overtake to the starboard side in a narrow channel. Two longs two shorts—wishing to overtake to the port side in a narrow channel. Long, short, long, short—leading vessel agreeing to be overtaken. One long—a warning when approaching a blind bend.

The sound signals.docx 12.86 kB · 0 downloads

 

 

Even this is ambiguous. 'Long' and 'short' are subjective and easily confused. Listening to the Thames trip boat skippers using sound signals their idea of a 'short' blast is what I would call 'long'. 

[nicknorman]

Just now, TheBiscuits said:

 

That's because most inland boaters don't know their sound signals ... as this thread has shown again!

 

One of the yottie instructors in the Med always said he had great trouble getting the English to do more than 2 seconds for a long blast and just as much trouble getting the French to stop after 5 seconds...

 

I work on the principle that I know them so I use them appropriately, but I am pleasantly surprised when the other boat understands them!

In the context of English canals, 6 seconds does seem excessive. Or rude in fact. In the British psyche it changes from 2 seconds "I am here" to 6 seconds "GET OUT OF MY WAY, YOU WXXXXR!". That is the problem with importing a set of signals designed for big ships on the ocean, to tiny little tin sewer tubes on a ditch. Doesn't necessarily travel well.

[MtB]

1 minute ago, nicknorman said:

In the context of English canals, 6 seconds does seem excessive. Or rude in fact. In the British psyche it changes from 2 seconds "I am here" to 6 seconds "GET OUT OF MY WAY, YOU WXXXXR!". That is the problem with importing a set of signals designed for big ships on the ocean, to tiny little tin sewer tubes on a ditch. Doesn't necessarily travel well.

 

There are flag signals too, IIRC....

 

 

[nicknorman]

I recall passing Swallow Lane moorings on the N Stratford, I could see a boat manoeuvring in the arm. Obviously I was going slowly anyway passing the moored boats, but as I approached the junction the boat engaged fwd gear came out of the arm and proceeded to ram me amidships, albeit quite slowly and with a fender. The steerer said "didn't you hear my horn" to which the answer was no. His mate on the shore, a complete tosser, piped up "Yea, 3 blasts, next time listen" and then unfortunately disappeared into the clubhouse before I had time to point out that 3 short blasts means in reverse, whereas the chap had hit me going forwards in fwd gear.

[Ray T]

9 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

 

Even this is ambiguous. 'Long' and 'short' are subjective and easily confused. Listening to the Thames trip boat skippers using sound signals their idea of a 'short' blast is what I would call 'long'. 

 

If sound signals are used properly there should be no ambiguity.

 

Sound signals are called "blasts". There are two different blasts used for warning and steering signals.

• Short Blast - Lasts about one second.
• Prolonged Blast - Lasts from four to six seconds.

Navigation Sounds : BoatUS Foundation

 

Oddly enough offshore boaters accept this and use the signals as intended.

 

Note: Inland Rules regarding sound signals are occasionally different from International Rules. Inland Rules signal intended action and International Rules signal what you are actually doing. The following information reflects Inland Rules. If you travel overseas, you must learn the International Rules.

Edited July 4, 2022 by Ray T

[David Mack]

The only guidance on the use of sound signals which I could find with a quick search on the CRT website is in the Boaters Handbook. And there, on page 58, they are referenced in relation to passing a stationary dredger or other works! Given that the Boaters Handbook is signed off by CRT and EA, newbie boaters could be forgiven for concluding that sound signals have no official status on rivers and canals.

[Alan de Enfield]

22 minutes ago, Ray T said:

Sound signals are called "blasts". There are two different blasts used for warning and steering signals.

• Short Blast - Lasts about one second.
• Prolonged Blast - Lasts from four to six seconds.

Navigation Sounds : BoatUS Foundation

 

 

Already posted above.

 

 

 

6 minutes ago, David Mack said:

The only guidance on the use of sound signals which I could find with a quick search on the CRT website is in the Boaters Handbook. And there, on page 58, they are referenced in relation to passing a stationary dredger or other works! Given that the Boaters Handbook is signed off by CRT and EA, newbie boaters could be forgiven for concluding that sound signals have no official status on rivers and canals.

 

They are fully detailed in the 'General Canal Bye Laws' :

 

Sound signals : Bye-Law No12.

 

(1) Every power-driven vessel navigating on any canal shall be furnished with an efficient whistle.

 

(2) When vessels are in sight of one another the master of a power-driven vessel under way in taking any of the courses hereinafter referred to in this Bye-law shall indicate that course by following signals on such whistle, namely :

One short blast to mean “I am altering my course to starboard”, two short blasts to mean “I am altering my course to port”, three short blasts to mean “My engines are going astern”, four short blasts to mean “I am about to turn or to turn round”.

This signal shall be followed after a short interval by one short blast if turning to starboard or two short blasts if turning to port and shall be repeated to any approaching vessel, whereupon such approaching vessel shall take action to avoid collision.

 

(3) In fog, mist, falling snow, heavy rainstorm or any other conditions similarly restricting visibility whether by night or day, the following signals shall be used:-

(a) A power-driven vessel making way through the water shall sound, at intervals of not more than two minutes a prolonged blast.

(b) A power-driven vessel under way but stopped and making no way through the water shall sound, at intervals of not more than two minutes, two prolonged blasts with an interval of about one second between them.

(c) A vessel when towing and a vessel under way which is unable to get out of the way of an approaching vessel through being not under command or unable to manoeuvre as required by these Bye-laws shall sound, at intervals of not more than one minute, three blasts in succession, namely, one prolonged blast followed by two short blasts.

(d) Every vessel aground in the fairway or mid-channel shall, so long as she remains aground, signify the same by sounding five or more blasts in rapid succession at intervals of not more than one minute. (4) When the view of the canal ahead is obstructed by a bend in the canal and until such view is no longer obscured, a powerdriven vessel making way through the water shall sound, at intervals of twenty seconds, a prolonged blast.

 

(5) The Master of a power driven vessel approaching a lock which is operated by staff provided by the Board for that purpose and requiring the bridge to be opened shall sound one prolonged blast, except that on the Weaver Navigation when navigating downstream he shall sound one prolonged blast followed by one short blast.

 

(6) The Master of a power-driven vessel intending to pass a moveable bridge, which is operated by staff provided by the Board or other authority, and requiring the bridge to be opened shall sound one prolonged blast, except that on the Weaver Navigation when navigating downstream he shall sound one prolonged blast followed by one short blast

Edited July 4, 2022 by Alan de Enfield

[cuthound]

13 hours ago, David Mack said:

But the trouble with that sort of arm signal is that it has two possible meanings:

"I am going to the left"

or

"I want you to pass to my left"

You may know which you intended, but how is the other fellow supposed to know that?

Of course you could use the proper horn signal for that situation, but most boaters don't know what they mean either, and many would interpret the use of a horn as aggressive.

 

Some years ago I was steering a Large Woolwich approaching a bridge when I saw a boat coming the other way that was clearly going to reach the bridge first. So I hung back to allow the other boat to come through first. But instead of coming through at normal speed, he slowed right down and crawled through the bridge leaving me with nowhere to go. With some judicious manoeuvring I managed to keep the boat parallel to the bank, leaving room for the oncomer to pass, but much closer to the towpath than I wanted to be. Then as he drew level he wound the revs right up and his wash lifted us onto the mud, from which we had some difficulty extracting ourselves. And as he passed I saw that his boat was emblazoned with the name of a well known narrowboat training provider, and that he appeared to have students with him. With that sort of example from the supposed-professionals, is it any wonder that some newer boaters have no idea how to behave?

 

That is why I point to myself and then the way I intend to go, and the point to the other steerer and the way I want him to go. It is intended (and usually does) ensure that the other boat understand what I am about to do and what I want him to do. 

[doratheexplorer]

On 03/07/2022 at 10:23, nicknorman said:

Well not off to a great start today, first bridge with bend the other side, we are virtually into bridge when large Woolwich bow appears on bend. I toot. He is well over to his left to get lined up for the bridge, fair enough it’s big boat. There is plenty of water on my left so I wave my arm  vigorously left showing that I’m going to pass on his left to make life easier for him and turn left a bit. But no, he applies lots of right rudder so we are on a collision course and he is just carrying on - well I’m sure if his enormous bow were to hit us, he would barely notice and certainly wouldn’t care. I then had to apply a lot of power to get out of his way - only just out of the bridge hole, as he carried on with no attempt to change speed or avoid the collision. We missed by inches no thanks to him.

 

I said “ I did signal I was going left because I thought it would be easier for you”. He said “I didn’t know what you meant.” What did he think it might mean? No hint of an apology for nearly ramming us. What an arsehole.

 

I know it doesn’t do to generalise but there do seem to be an above average proportion of entitled obnoxious arseholes driving historic boats, who think they are much more important than everyone else, and everyone else should get out of their way. I think having a enormous bow sticking up must be a compensation for their tiny genitals.

 

Unfortunately I was too traumatised to get the boat name, otherwise I would name and shame.

Quite a common experience with historic boats.  I could name and shame a couple but I've seen another person do so with a fairly well known historic boat owner and there was a massive forum pile-on, to the point that the member never posted again.  I read that thread with interest since their experience with that boater was exactly the same as mine.  A well respected and generally lauded boater.