Are boaters getting more selfish or is it just the world in general

[Ray T]

In my offshore days knowing the sound signals was course "De Rigueur, " in fact the RYA examinations required any budding skipper to know them.

Also when commercial boats were using them in the Solent or Southampton Water, for example, it was handy to know what was going on.

 

I do use them when out on our boat but often have to resort waving my arms about.

[Ronaldo47]

When we hired a boat on the Norfolk Broads some 40 years ago, when the boatyard was explaining where everything was, I noticed there was no mention of a horn. The guy explained that, due to complaints from water-side residents about horns being sounded from moored boats at unsocial hours, they had removed the horns from all their boats. 

[Rob-M]

Worse is someone using horn signals incorrectly, approaching a bridge and an oncoming boat giving three short blasts suggests to me they are stopping to let me through so I continue on only to have to go hard astern when they were actually trying to tell me to get out the way because they weren't stopping.

[Dav and Pen]

I think there is a reluctance to use the horn generally on the canals. If there’s a blind bend or bridge it’s best to assume you will meet something and you can often see by the water movement that there is someone around. This is the time to give a long blast and work out who is going downstream as they have the right of way unless I was on a loaded boat! We left the English canals some years ago as I’m afraid the number of badly moored boats and the shear numbers of them and the selfishness was spoiling the pleasure we had always had. 

[Hudds Lad]

1 minute ago, Dav and Pen said:

…you can often see by the water movement that there is someone around.

The amount of times this turns out to be ducks/swans/canadians/wind though  

[Creaking Gate]

100%.  Everything is the responsibility of someone else and they maintain this stand by not reading anything sent to them at all or ignoring every sign going, and/or simply believing they are right.  Most problems are caused this way. I've been on the canal 27 years and noticed a decline in standards across the board. 

[haggis]

In this thread it has been mentioned several times about hand/arm signals being misunderstood  and I have to admit that although I use them, I too have been confused about what the other boaters was trying to say.  You often see the skipper madly waving his arm about pointing to the right or the left but does he mean that that is where he is going or where he wants you to go? 

When I do arm signals, I make big gestures and point to myself then point to where I am going. If I don't get an acknowledgement , or if it looks like the skipper hasn't "got the message" I repeat it. 

I can't think of an instance where this method of signalling has been misunderstood. 

OK, I know that horn or light signals could be used but when the majority of folk on the canals have no idea what they mean, I prefer to use something which is easily understood. 

It is fair to say the skipper and I have different opinions on this subject 🙂

 

haggis

[AllanD]

16 minutes ago, haggis said:

In this thread it has been mentioned several times about hand/arm signals being misunderstood  and I have to admit that although I use them, I too have been confused about what the other boaters was trying to say.  You often see the skipper madly waving his arm about pointing to the right or the left but does he mean that that is where he is going or where he wants you to go? 

When I do arm signals, I make big gestures and point to myself then point to where I am going. If I don't get an acknowledgement , or if it looks like the skipper hasn't "got the message" I repeat it. 

I can't think of an instance where this method of signalling has been misunderstood. 

OK, I know that horn or light signals could be used but when the majority of folk on the canals have no idea what they mean, I prefer to use something which is easily understood. 

It is fair to say the skipper and I have different opinions on this subject 🙂

 

haggis

This reminds me of an occasion when cruising the Union Canal near Ratho. A wide beam hire boat was coming towards us with a woman waving both arms standing at the bow, in an agitated action, firstly in one direction and then the other. Not knowing what was required of us, we simply stopped. The instructions continued and they kept moving towards us. 

It was only when we could hear was also being shouted did we appreciate that her husband who steering couldn't see over or along the boat and she was shouting "left a bit"  followed by "right a bit" coordinated with her hand movements. 

We let them pass us before we moved. 

Edited September 12, 2022 by AllanD

[reg]

Im single handed I can't operate the horn and the steering at the same time. Simples

[Arthur Marshall]

2 hours ago, AllanD said:

This reminds me of an occasion when cruising the Union Canal near Ratho. A wide beam hire boat was coming towards us with a woman waving both arms standing at the bow, in an agitated action, firstly in one direction and then the other. Not knowing what was required of us, we simply stopped. The instructions continued and they kept moving towards us. 

It was only when we could hear was also being shouted did we appreciate that her husband who steering couldn't see over or along the boat and she was shouting "left a bit"  followed by "right a bit" coordinated with her hand movements. 

We let them pass us before we moved. 

These may help...

[ditchcrawler]

5 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

They don't really even need to 'learn' them - print out the 'chart' and stick it by the helm.

 

I posted this earlier in the thread :

 

 

 

 

 

 

Everyone keeps saying "dont bother with sound signals no one understands them"

 

Why not get folks to learn them - they have learnt to "pass red to red", is it so difficult to learn 3 or 4 sound signals.

 

C&RT could even provide a small 'sticker' when a boat licence is renewed (to put by the helm, much as some of the hire boat providers use).

 It could even be sponsored by an insurance company ! (Like the licence holders were)

 

 

Edited July 3 by Alan de Enfield

Probably 50% of the boaters I meet don't even know what port and starboard are, they are just told to drive on the right. I am thinking first time hirers and day boats who have never been afloat before.

[ditchcrawler]

2 hours ago, haggis said:

In this thread it has been mentioned several times about hand/arm signals being misunderstood  and I have to admit that although I use them, I too have been confused about what the other boaters was trying to say.  You often see the skipper madly waving his arm about pointing to the right or the left but does he mean that that is where he is going or where he wants you to go? 

When I do arm signals, I make big gestures and point to myself then point to where I am going. If I don't get an acknowledgement , or if it looks like the skipper hasn't "got the message" I repeat it. 

I can't think of an instance where this method of signalling has been misunderstood. 

OK, I know that horn or light signals could be used but when the majority of folk on the canals have no idea what they mean, I prefer to use something which is easily understood. 

It is fair to say the skipper and I have different opinions on this subject 🙂

 

haggis

I had this in Birmingham when I met the little water taxi that had just come through the Bar, I was exiting "Black Sabith Bridge"  and she stuffed a right arm out, I veered slightly to the right, she came straight towards me , we both did an emergency stop. She wanted me to go to the right of her, passing on the wrong side to give her a straight run from the bar to the bridge !  I was in the wrong, she is a professional.

[LadyG]

They are not always told to pass port to port DAMHIK.

I will phone the hire company, if obvious that are not training hire crew .

I have just had three hire boats pass me, all slowly and with instructors on board, as they leave their base. I know they are very supportive, and would recommend them: Shire  Cruisers .

 

 

 

 

 

11 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

I had this in Birmingham when I met the little water taxi that had just come through the Bar, I was exiting "Black Sabith Bridge"  and she stuffed a right arm out, I veered slightly to the right, she came straight towards me , we both did an emergency stop. She wanted me to go to the right of her, passing on the wrong side to give her a straight run from the bar to the bridge !  I was in the wrong, she is a professional.

She should make her intentions clear using maritime sound signals .

 

 

 

[Tracy D'arth]

On 10/09/2022 at 21:54, Wanderer Vagabond said:

To perfectly illustrate the premise of the OP, I put forward these photos as exhibit A (yes, it might be 'naming and shaming' but given the level of ignorance, I really don't care)

The water point/Elsan/Rubbish disposal point at Braunston at 11.30 am this morning

Not a problem I thought, I'll moor up opposite and wait until he's finished. So I stood around like a lemon on the opposite side of the canal for about a quarter of an hour waiting for something to happen. There was no sign of watering up, dumping rubbish or emptying of Elsan's (or even going into the nearby chandlers)  A nearby moorer walked past and asked me if I was waiting for the boat to move ,I obviously answered "Yes" to then be told, "Oh, he's moored up, he's been there since yesterday afternoon". Annoying doesn't begin to describe it. Realising this muppet's ignorance I then managed to squeeze in behind him but not properly moored so whenever a boat came past the bow kept drifting out. I did the necessary (Elsan, Water,rubbish) and then reversed back telling the crew not to bother fending off if the bow hit the moored boat; as it turned out the boat reversed as straight as an arrow (on the one occasion I had rather hoped it wouldn't) so we didn't. By the time I'd finished there was a queue to get the the service block.

It can be seen here that there was plenty of mooring available opposite

 

....but if that wasn't good enough for him, this is what the Braunston moorings looked like at the time......

 

When watering up I was conversing loudly with a moorer on the other side of the canal of just how ignorant this piece of mooring had been, but since there was no reaction from anyone on the boat I can only assume that to compound the matter, the boat was unoccupied.

 

I have a level of sympathy with someone turning up at Braunston at, say, 7pm no mooring available and taking the only place he could find (if that was indeed the case). I have no sympathy whatsoever with someone leaving the fecking thing there for the whole morning when alternative moorings were available

 

Rant over!!

 

 

The pirate flag on the front deck may have given you a clue.

 

I was at Wheaton Aston services a few years ago for water, urgently needed early in the morning. Two boats on the water point, no sign of anyone. Gave them a bang as  I breasted, no response from one, the other guy stuck 2 fingers out of a port hole.

I walked across the deck of the other boat, watered up and then left the hose running into Mr. Fingers cratch cover whilst I closed my tank, adjusted the cratch cover, had a scratch and a breather. 

Took the hose in and left, with a smile.

 

 

[LadyG]

On 11/09/2022 at 13:31, monkeyhanger said:

On the subject of lights, as I was approaching a bridge hole, a boat was coming towards me, and in my opinion he was nearer the bridge than me so I slowed right down to wait for him. He did the same, and we were both almost stationary when I decided to go though the bridge or we could have been there all day. As I started forward, the tunnel light on the other boat started flashing on and off. As I passed the steerer, I mentioned that perhaps he had a problem with his light. "No, I was just flashing you to come through" was the reply.

There is no maritime light signal involving white flashing lights as far as i know 

I had someone (RYA Coastal Skipper)!!! steering on a yacht i was delivering, who I instructed to follow a white light, while I went below to check chart.

He thought it was a lighthouse!!!!  

[Tracy D'arth]

I don't give any signals.

 

I know what I am doing, if the other boater doesn't, that is his problem.

 

Besides, I am always right.

[Momac]

1 hour ago, reg said:

Im single handed I can't operate the horn and the steering at the same time. Simples

I guess if you only have one hand you might consider installing a foot operated horn button

[LadyG]

11 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

I don't give any signals.

 

I know what I am doing, if the other boater doesn't, that is his problem.

 

Besides, I am always right.

I think I've met you.

I've managed to get the gunwale repaired, looks quite smart with it's faux rivets on one side and real ones on the other!

Please don't buy an ice breaker!

Edited September 12, 2022 by LadyG

[Iain_S]

1 hour ago, LadyG said:

There is no maritime light signal involving white flashing lights as far as i know 

(snip)

Colregs 34(b)?

[Arthur Marshall]

15 minutes ago, Iain_S said:

Colregs 34(b)?

Precisely why using any kind of official signalling system is pointless.

[Iain_S]

9 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

Precisely why using any kind of official signalling system is pointless.

Must confess I don't understand this comment. Would there be the same attitude to a boater who steers to the left when meeting another boat, as the official system of going right is pointless? After all, most of us are in the UK, and drive on the left!

[Arthur Marshall]

13 minutes ago, Iain_S said:

Must confess I don't understand this comment. Would there be the same attitude to a boater who steers to the left when meeting another boat, as the official system of going right is pointless? After all, most of us are in the UK, and drive on the left!

Maybe because posting something like "Colregs 34b" is about as intelligible to most of us on here as "quyxxcllobitic" is. Somebody flashes a light at me as I approach a bridge,  I let go the tiller, stick the boat in neutral, duck down into the cabin to get my tablet, google it...

See? Bleedin' pointless. Horn signals are even dafter, as I'm standing on top of an aircooled Lister banging away and my ears aren't what they were seventy years ago anyway. And I'm younger than half the boaters out there

Every boater knows, after the first time out, that you drive on the right, because the boat you nearly hit explains it, either nicely or nastily, depending on mood. If you can pass on your extensive knowledge of Colregs in the available five seconds, fine. If not, just be careful. It really isn't hard to avoid disaster at 3mph. It's not just selfish boaters are the problem, it's the barrack room laywer types who have all the irrelevant regulations at their finger tips but no common sense

[Wanderer Vagabond]

5 hours ago, haggis said:

In this thread it has been mentioned several times about hand/arm signals being misunderstood  and I have to admit that although I use them, I too have been confused about what the other boaters was trying to say.  You often see the skipper madly waving his arm about pointing to the right or the left but does he mean that that is where he is going or where he wants you to go? 

When I do arm signals, I make big gestures and point to myself then point to where I am going. If I don't get an acknowledgement , or if it looks like the skipper hasn't "got the message" I repeat it. 

I can't think of an instance where this method of signalling has been misunderstood. 

OK, I know that horn or light signals could be used but when the majority of folk on the canals have no idea what they mean, I prefer to use something which is easily understood. 

It is fair to say the skipper and I have different opinions on this subject 🙂

 

haggis

You seem to use the same method as me, there is no point debating horn or light signals since such information is not given to hirers and probably the majority of other leisure boaters don't have a clue of them either. For them to be effective both parties must have full knowledge of their meaning otherwise all it does is give the know all the bragging rights of 'You were in the wrong'.

 

For clarity I am aware of the sound signals and the only one I've heard that impressed me was on a waste tug on the Thames who blasted out 4 and then 1 (not to be confused with 5!) meaning 'I am turning fully around to starboard' and that is exactly what he did. His sound signal enable me to keep well out of his way. Compare this to the 'professional' muppet operating a passenger trip boat who gave 2 blasts as I was level with his stern and then pulled out directly into my path sound signals or not you are still expected to look.

2 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

I had this in Birmingham when I met the little water taxi that had just come through the Bar, I was exiting "Black Sabith Bridge"  and she stuffed a right arm out, I veered slightly to the right, she came straight towards me , we both did an emergency stop. She wanted me to go to the right of her, passing on the wrong side to give her a straight run from the bar to the bridge !  I was in the wrong, she is a professional.

Means nothing (see above) some of the worse cock-ups I've come across were so-called 'professionals'. When going up the Thames from Limehouse a 'professional' muppet reversed off Tower Pier directly into my path as I'm barrelling along at 9knots (going with the tide) and then stopped to point out to his passengers all of the wondrous sights of London that you can see from there, oblivious to the 18 ton narrow boat heading straight for him and unable to stop.

6 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

Maybe because posting something like "Colregs 34b" is about as intelligible to most of us on here as "quyxxcllobitic" is. Somebody flashes a light at me as I approach a bridge,  I let go the tiller, stick the boat in neutral, duck down into the cabin to get my tablet, google it...

See? Bleedin' pointless. Horn signals are even dafter, as I'm standing on top of an aircooled Lister banging away and my ears aren't what they were seventy years ago anyway. And I'm younger than half the boaters out there

Every boater knows, after the first time out, that you drive on the right, because the boat you nearly hit explains it, either nicely or nastily, depending on mood. If you can pass on your extensive knowledge of Colregs in the available five seconds, fine. If not, just be careful. It really isn't hard to avoid disaster at 3mph. It's not just selfish boaters are the problem, it's the barrack room laywer types who have all the irrelevant regulations at their finger tips but no common sense

Whilst there is a whole load of 'stuff' in Colregs, the bottom line is 'avoid a collision'(clue in the name really). I managed to avoid a collision on the Thames up towards Lechlade (the windy bits) by steering hard to port (Colregs say you should turn to starboard). The boat I was avoiding steered hard to starboard and we ended up safely parallel to one another with no collision. Had I steered to starboard my stern would have swung to port and he'd have T-boned me (we met on a sharp bend).

 

As you say it isn't difficult to avoid disaster at 3mph, you just need to be aware of your surroundings. As I travel along I'm usually looking to see where the line of the canal goes into the distance (looking for bridges,locks etc) so I often see an approaching boat a long time before it is in front of me. On blind corners/bridges I always assume that there will be something coming the other way and work out what my 'escape' plan will be accordingly (steer into the weeds if absolutely necessary.

 

The only time I generally use a horn is approaching a t-junction when I'll blast once if I'm turning to starboard and twice if turning to port. For those that know they will then be aware of which way I'm going as I come out of the junction, and for those that don't know all they'll hear is a warning of my approach, both options being good

[Rob-M]

3 minutes ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

As you say it isn't difficult to avoid disaster at 3mph, you just need to be aware of your surroundings. As I travel along I'm usually looking to see where the line of the canal goes into the distance (looking for bridges,locks etc) so I often see an approaching boat a long time before it is in front of me. On blind corners/bridges I always assume that there will be something coming the other way and work out what my 'escape' plan will be accordingly (steer into the weeds if absolutely necessary.

This is the key, being aware and expecting something to appear.  That is how I boat and often I'll have an approaching boater ask how I knew they were there as they were oblivious to a boat approaching where as I had seen them across the fields.  At many bridges if you get the right line approaching the bridge you can generally see enough to know if someone is approaching or you can make your own bows easily visible to them.  Having done quite a bit of boating towing a butty I try to get into a position where I won't have to stop as the butty running up the stern can throw the motor all over the place.

 

[David Mack]

30 minutes ago, Rob-M said:

Having done quite a bit of boating towing a butty I try to get into a position where I won't have to stop as the butty running up the stern can throw the motor all over the place.

Some years ago, towing a disabled boat on a long line I had an oncoming grp cruiser pass me on the correct side, but then tried to pass the towed boat on the wrong side! I don't think he had even seen the towline.