More volockie hassle

[Jerra]

In view of the things covered in this thread, I have just been reading "The Volunteers Handbook".

 

I was a bit concerned by the following under the heading Volunteer Lock Keepers:

 

They are there to offer advice on how to use locks safely and efficiently as well as some often much appreciated legwork in pushing lock gates. 

 

My bold.

 

I was concerned because many of the vollies I have come across weren't boaters and had little experience being fairly new in the role.

[LadyG]

16 minutes ago, Jerra said:

In view of the things covered in this thread, I have just been reading "The Volunteers Handbook".

 

I was a bit concerned by the following under the heading Volunteer Lock Keepers:

 

They are there to offer advice on how to use locks safely and efficiently as well as some often much appreciated legwork in pushing lock gates. 

 

My bold.

 

I was concerned because many of the vollies I have come across weren't boaters and had little experience being fairly new in the role.

I thought they were there to help me through locks as a single hander, to use locks more efficiently where the occasion demands, and also to operate exceptionally difficult locks, assuming they are sufficiently competent, some vlockies are very experienced.

I don't have any problem finding random people to push gates! If there are none, I do it myself. 

They don't have to be boaters, in fact unlikely to be boaters, but they should have a good grasp of locking, the safe and efficient operation of locks.

A full time CRT operator would also be managing a waterway, and would probably give the boater advice, if required.

Edited June 9, 2023 by LadyG

[nicknorman]

15 minutes ago, Jerra said:

In view of the things covered in this thread, I have just been reading "The Volunteers Handbook".

 

I was a bit concerned by the following under the heading Volunteer Lock Keepers:

 

They are there to offer advice on how to use locks safely and efficiently as well as some often much appreciated legwork in pushing lock gates. 

 

My bold.

 

I was concerned because many of the vollies I have come across weren't boaters and had little experience being fairly new in the role.

I think it has to be read in the context of the broad spectrum of boaters. First time hire boaters (or first time private owners for that matter) vs 50 year veterans. For the former group, I guess volockies do have a role in giving advice as per your bold. For the latter group, it’s highly unlikely that the volockie has even a fraction of the experience and knowledge.

 

You would think it might be fairly obvious to a volockie which category they are dealing with, but in my experience it seems not! They can’t see beyond their own narrow knowledge set.

 

Just a very trivial example yesterday, arrived at Curdworth top, some volunteers were cutting grass around the lock (great!). Volunteer filled the lock and opened the gate as we approached. Fine, thank you. And then left us to get on with operating the lock. Fantastic.

 

Some chit chat ensued and I asked about the issue at lock 3 (new hole discovered, and CRT are looking into it), mentioned that that pound had been problematic for a while (thus clearly demonstrating familiarity with the flight) and that we were heading back to the marina at Fazeley Mill (ditto). His parting shot was “Oh it’s a ride to the next lock, not a walk, as it’s quite a long pound”.

 

This is called stating the bleedin obvious. Obviously his intentions were good but why the need to impart his limited knowledge on someone who clearly knows the flight? Many volockies do see to have a compulsion towards forcing their “knowledge” on you, regardless of whether you want it or not. Nobody likes back seat driving. In this case, a very minor and trivial example, but the principle remains.

Edited June 9, 2023 by nicknorman

[Midnight]

5 minutes ago, LadyG said:

I thought they were there to help me through locks as a single hander, and also to use them more efficiently where occasion demands, and also to operate exceptionally difficult locks.

Are you thinking of going south over the HNC single-handed?
That's the most unreliable of the Pennine crossings, an absolute nightmare single-handed (1st hand experience)  and you're not likely to get assistance all the way. 
Other escape plans are available.

[Jerra]

5 minutes ago, LadyG said:

I thought they were there to help me through locks as a single hander, and also to use them more efficiently where occasion demands, and also to operate exceptionally difficult locks.

I don't have any problem finding random people to push gates! If there are none, I do it myself. 

They don't have to be boaters, in fact unlikely to be boaters, but they should have a good grasp of locking, the safe and efficient operation of locks.

A full time CRT operator would also be managing a waterway, and would probably give the boater advice, if required.

As far as I am concerned (it may be arrogant) I am not having a non-boater with little experience telling me how they think I should operate a lock when I have safely operated thousands.  There are many boaters whom I respect and would happily accept advice/training from, but not a non-boater with little experience.

 

Note CRT in the handbook give that as their job "offer advice on how to use locks safely and efficiently".

[magnetman]

Maybe there should be colour coded flags to indicate experience level and willingness to be helped. 

 

 

You could hoist the flags as and when on a folding pole by the hatches. 

 

 

[Jerra]

7 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

I think it has to be read in the context of the broad spectrum of boaters. First time hire boaters (or first time private owners for that matter) vs 50 year veterans. For the former group, I guess volockies do have a role in giving advice as per your bold. For the latter group, it’s highly unlikely that the volockie has even a fraction of the experience and knowledge.

 

You would think it might be fairly obvious to a volockie which category they are dealing with, but in my experience it seems not! They can’t see beyond their own knowledge set.

 

Just a very trivial example yesterday, arrived at Curdworth top, some volunteers were cutting grass around the lock (great!). Volunteer filled the lock and opened the gate as we approached. Fine, thank you. And then left us to get on with operating the lock. Fantastic.

 

Some chit chat ensued and I asked about the issue at lock 3 (new hole discovered, and CRT are looking into it), mentioned that that pound had been problematic for a while (thus clearly demonstrating familiarity with the flight) and that we were heading back to the marina at Fazeley Mill (ditto). His parting shot was “Oh it’s a ride to the next lock, not a walk, as it’s quite a long pound”.

 

This is called stating the bleedin obvious. Obviously his intentions were good but why the need to impart his limited knowledge on someone who clearly knows the flight? Many volockies do see to have a compulsion towards forcing their “knowledge” on you, regardless of whether you want it or not. Nobody likes back seat driving. In this case, a very minor and trivial example, but the principle remains.

I couldn't have put things any better.

1 minute ago, magnetman said:

Maybe there should be colour coded flags to indicate experience level and willingness to be helped. 

 

 

You could hoist the flags as and when on a folding pole by the hatches. 

 

 

Black for folk like me who enjoy working locks and like to do it all ourselves.  😄

[LadyG]

8 minutes ago, Midnight said:

Are you thinking of going south over the HNC single-handed?
That's the most unreliable of the Pennine crossings, an absolute nightmare single-handed (1st hand experience)  and you're not likely to get assistance all the way. 
Other escape plans are available.

No thanks, I was booked (1E), but when the lock operator met me, he explained there was water (not always available), but he was very kind, "not going to be an enjoyable experience" was his summary, lol. "Leaping off at locks" was mentioned ʘ⁠‿⁠ʘ

I'm still not sure about my summer trip, really need to get going while the going is good!

Edited June 9, 2023 by LadyG

[magnetman]

Exactly.

 

 

Or a recognised arrangement of sound signals which the volunteers are trained and obliged to respond to. 

 

 

Morse code could work 

 

-.. --- / --- -. .

[Midnight]

8 minutes ago, LadyG said:

No thanks, I was booked (1E), but when the lock operator met me, he explained there was water (not always available), but he was very kind, "not going to be an enjoyable experience" was his summary, lol.

I'm still not sure about my summer trip, really need to get going while the going is good!

The Trent is your best option - on a medium tide. Join the Trentlink Facebook page for buddy up options and sound advice. 
https://www.facebook.com/groups/666937220961360

 

Edited June 9, 2023 by Midnight

[LadyG]

11 minutes ago, Jerra said:

I couldn't have put things any better.

Black for folk like me who enjoy working locks and like to do it all ourselves.  😄

I think skull and crossbones indicates first time hirers, possibly fuelled by lager.

Red ensign on tiller indicates some confused thinking

Union flag, confused helmsman.

Saltire on the forward flagstaff indicates Scottish origin.

Tricolour (Fr) indicates, in my case lack of any other flag, (used on the Trent as wind indicator.

 

[Mike Todd]

14 hours ago, nicknorman said:

Well in that case they weren’t volockies! But anyway, in the days of proper lock keepers they … kept the lock (in good nick) they didn’t muscle in on people operating the lock.

How do you know? I thought that they made typing pool supervisors seem tame pussy cats. (A bit later, but Maureen RIP certainly did!)

Edited June 9, 2023 by Mike Todd

[Mike Tee]

going back to my speedy descent at Watford, at every point where a white paddle needed raising, neither lockie made a move until they got the nod from me - I think they were both volunteers, but as far as I am concerned, both very professional.

[MtB]

31 minutes ago, Mike Tee said:

going back to my speedy descent at Watford, at every point where a white paddle needed raising, neither lockie made a move until they got the nod from me - I think they were both volunteers, but as far as I am concerned, both very professional.

 

Very pleasing to hear but the very fact you found this worth commenting on, suggests it is unusual. 

 

And it's the uncertainty about the competence of the vollies I see bobbing about in the distance around a lock I'm approaching that makes MY heart sink.

 

So its not really to do with the competence of a good one when you encounter them, its the fact that you just don't know what they are going to be like, and whether they are going to put your boat at risk in the lock if you accept their "help". 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 9, 2023 by MtB

[doratheexplorer]

44 minutes ago, Midnight said:

Are you thinking of going south over the HNC single-handed?
That's the most unreliable of the Pennine crossings, an absolute nightmare single-handed (1st hand experience)  and you're not likely to get assistance all the way. 
Other escape plans are available.

Out of interest, what are the specific difficulties for single handers.  I've not done it myself, but I've single handed from the western side up to Stalybridge and back and it was no different to any other narrow canal.  Presumably there are problems further on?

[ditchcrawler]

11 minutes ago, Mike Tee said:

going back to my speedy descent at Watford, at every point where a white paddle needed raising, neither lockie made a move until they got the nod from me - I think they were both volunteers, but as far as I am concerned, both very professional.

I have found that a lot more this year, not always helped by the fact I forget to give them a nod as I am use to working with the missis .  As for Watford and Foxton I think they may be a better grade than a lot I have met with next to no experience.  One of them hangs about on here.

[Jerra]

8 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Very pleasing to hear but the very fact you found this worth commenting on, suggests it is unusual. 

 

 

And the uncertainty about the competence of the vollies bobbing about in the distance is what makes MY heart sink when I see them. 

 

 

 

You mean those people who have been clearly told in their handbook their purpose is "to offer advice on how to use locks safely and efficiently".

 

I know the feeling.

[Captain Pegg]

6 hours ago, David Mack said:

Doesn't change my point. Why would you hand your windlass to anyone?

So they can help you.

 

When I was working up Stone locks yesterday a chap walked past, asked if I was single handing and when I confirmed that I was he offered to finish off while I got back on the boat.

 

Quick conversation revealed he was a boater so I offered him the windlass in my hand to wind down the paddles after he’d opened the gate.

 

Paddles down, he handed it back to me as I passed on my way out.

 

It’s only a lump of metal. It’s not that important. Presumably most folk have more than one on board.

 

[Victor Vectis]

I've got one in the bottom of that second lock up at Stone.

 

An ally one, so no point fishing for it with a magnet.

 

😃

[MtB]

8 minutes ago, Victor Vectis said:

I've got one in the bottom of that second lock up at Stone.

 

An ally one, so no point fishing for it with a magnet.

 

😃

 

 

I find my stock of windlasses constantly changing.  I lose them and I find others. 

 

I'm lost in admiration for people who do any decent amount of boating and manage to keep the same windlass for decades.

 

 

Any sort of 'special' windlass like an ally one would be gone in a few months. If not in a few days, or few hours even! 

 

 

[dave moore]

All of my windlasses are long term. The oldest,a Harry Neil No 2 I acquired from Ronnie Aldridge in the 60s, a swap for a gas bottle. It’s gone in on several occasions but I’ve always managed to pull it out. From the same time, but I can’t recall where from is an original GH Cooke 

“ Wheelock” windlass, with a smaller than standard eye to fit the spindles of the T&M locks as they were. Back in the 70s BW did some cast Neil copies, handsome things, and I had one chrome plated. All are a joy to use……

[Midnight]

5 hours ago, doratheexplorer said:

Out of interest, what are the specific difficulties for single handers.  I've not done it myself, but I've single handed from the western side up to Stalybridge and back and it was no different to any other narrow canal.  Presumably there are problems further on?

It's just a long drag especially on the Yorkshire side. There's no landing stages between many of the locks which are close together. So you open the gates of the lock you're in walk to the next, open the gates, go back take boat into next lock, go back close the gates, go back repeat 40 odd times. Loverly scenery and the tunnel is exceptional if you don't worry about a bit of paint being scratched. Well worth it for real ale fans but I was cream crackered when I made it to Huddersfield. 

1 hour ago, Victor Vectis said:

I've got one in the bottom of that second lock up at Stone.

 

An ally one, so no point fishing for it with a magnet.

 

😃

 

 

Jubilee clip around the handle - I managed to fish Mrs' Midnights alloy one out of River Lock in Leeds

 

1 hour ago, MtB said:

 

I'm lost in admiration for people who do any decent amount of boating and manage to keep the same windlass for decades.

 

 My 'old faithful' I fished out of Greenberfield lock in 1985 with a boat hook. I had it hanging up in the garage for years saying "I will get a boat for you one day". I've used it all the time for the past 20 years except on the Wigan Flight where I use one with a shorter handle to speed things up a bit. It's going in the box with me one day.

[Arthur Marshall]

1 hour ago, dave moore said:

All of my windlasses are long term. The oldest,a Harry Neil No 2 I acquired from Ronnie Aldridge in the 60s, a swap for a gas bottle. It’s gone in on several occasions but I’ve always managed to pull it out. From the same time, but I can’t recall where from is an original GH Cooke 

“ Wheelock” windlass, with a smaller than standard eye to fit the spindles of the T&M locks as they were. Back in the 70s BW did some cast Neil copies, handsome things, and I had one chrome plated. All are a joy to use……

I've got my original one from thirty years ago that came with the boat, and one with a rotating handle that I bought twenty years back. I use a GoWindlass these days and lend the other out to helpful bystanders, especially at lift bridges. Three more of varying designs in the emergency locker, having been wombled en route.

I'd be grateful if someone could forget to pick up one of those mooring pins with an eye for the rope, somewhere between Macclesfield and Llangollen...

[LadyG]

7 hours ago, doratheexplorer said:

Out of interest, what are the specific difficulties for single handers.  I've not done it myself, but I've single handed from the western side up to Stalybridge and back and it was no different to any other narrow canal.  Presumably there are problems further on?

Because the canal was dug out on the cheap it is difficult to get alongside, so leaping off the boat is de rigeur, that was my understanding. As a very slow singlehander  getting through any rough areas is difficult. Plus it keeps running out of water!

Obviously these things would not deter the athletic boaters as they might get through with water and without difficulties in rough areas.

Edited June 9, 2023 by LadyG

[Captain Pegg]

1 hour ago, Midnight said:

There's no landing stages between many of the locks which are close together. So you open the gates of the lock you're in walk to the next, open the gates, go back take boat into next lock, go back close the gates, go back repeat 40 odd times.

 

So it’s the same as the W&B between Astwood bottom and Tardebigge top???

 

They have lock landings but by choice I don’t use them.

 

ETA - to be fair the locks must be further apart on average but that is my preferred method to single hand.

Edited June 9, 2023 by Captain Pegg