More volockie hassle

[magnetman]

Maybe this is where one needs an inflatable ball. Offer it to them and suggest they play vollie ball. Should keep them occupied and prevent the lock being cluttered up by too many people. 

[IanD]

33 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Maybe this is where one needs an inflatable ball. Offer it to them and suggest they play vollie ball. Should keep them occupied and prevent the lock being cluttered up by too many people. 

Isn't vollie ball where you put them inside one of those giant inflatable bouncy clear plastic balls and then push them into the canal? 😉

[Jerra]

6 hours ago, Francis Herne said:

See, that complaint is the one I don't really get.

 

In the last month, I've done 112 locks on Lark and

received assistance at 14 of them:

6 BCNS (Titford flight for the rally)

1 CRT volunteers

1 CRT staff

6 random passersby (of which 3 actually helpful opening/closing gates, 2 a small child who was really keen on boats and her dad, 1 a group of curious students)

 

plus a couple of shared wide locks and a few gates left open when passing boats going the other way.

 

I can't remember precisely over a longer period but that feels pretty typical.

 

Given the insignificant number of locks people want to help me play with it seems churlish to refuse them, and volockies specifically barely feature in my life. Perhaps there are more of them where you two are.

I would agree if I have given them permission.  My problem with some (not all) volockies is that they assume they have the right to take over the lock and do what they want without even consulting you.

[IanD]

3 minutes ago, Jerra said:

I would agree if I have given them permission.  My problem with some (not all) volockies is that they assume they have the right to take over the lock and do what they want without even consulting you.

 

And that's either an education/training problem, or a personality problem with the volockie.

 

The first would be CARTs fault (assuming they don't already tell them to always ask the boater first), the second is difficult to avoid because there are control freaks and jobsworths in all walks of life.

 

The only realistic way to avoid this would be to get rid of all volockies, but I suggest that most boaters -- though perhaps not on CWDF going by posters who focus on their own bad experiences -- would agree that on the whole they're a good thing, especially for less experienced or solo boaters who have the biggest problems with locks... 😉

 

Only looking at your own point of view without thinking that others might see things differently is one of the big issues with society today, as has often been pointed out...

[magnetman]

We get them on the River but they are not allo

wed to be working unless a proper lock keeper is there as well. 

The worst one I had was explaining to someone that narrow boats are 6ft wide and therefore you can get three beside each other in a lock 19ft wide. 

 

I imagine he found out quite soon this was wrong !

[AG2]

2 hours ago, magnetman said:

We get them on the River but they are not allo

wed to be working unless a proper lock keeper is there as well. 

The worst one I had was explaining to someone that narrow boats are 6ft wide and therefore you can get three beside each other in a lock 19ft wide. 

 

I imagine he found out quite soon this was wrong !

The EA volunteers lock keepers are trained and signed off to work on their own whilst the duty lock keeper takes a lunch break  or goes to the weir.

The duty lock keeper can leave the site for their 1 hour break if required.

 

At the end of the day it’s down to the training of all volunteers and ensuring that they know what they can and cannot do.

 

It’s been great reading the thread and the different views in the posts. 

With regard to having 3 narrow boats abreast in a lock it’s great to watch the reactions of everyone when you have a couple of rows of 3 abreast especially if you add some GRP boats & a few rowing boats to use all the space.

 

[Tony Brooks]

5 minutes ago, AG2 said:

The EA volunteers lock keepers are trained and signed off to work on their own whilst the duty lock keeper takes a lunch break  or goes to the weir.

The duty lock keeper can leave the site for their 1 hour break if required.

 

At the end of the day it’s down to the training of all volunteers and ensuring that they know what they can and cannot do.

 

It’s been great reading the thread and the different views in the posts. 

With regard to having 3 narrow boats abreast in a lock it’s great to watch the reactions of everyone when you have a couple of rows of 3 abreast especially if you add some GRP boats & a few rowing boats to use all the space.

 

 

Back in the day, it was a wonder to see the professional lockkeepers pack the boats in but nowadays I am not so sure that I would be confident they were properly trained and experienced. Especially at locks with side entry sluices like Sandford.

[IanD]

22 minutes ago, AG2 said:

[snip]

At the end of the day it’s down to the training of all volunteers and ensuring that they know what they can and cannot do.

[snip]

 

Not being pedantic, but going by comments on here it's ensuring they know what they should and should not do that's the problem... 😉

 

They (hopefully!) know they can work locks, but some of them don't realise that -- at least, in normal canal locks, not big river ones or Bingley 5-rise -- the boater is in charge and not them, because -- well, it's their boat. They should *ask* if the boater wants help, provide it if the answer is "yes please", and not if the answer is "no thank you" -- and not argue or toss their toys out of the pram and go off in a huff in response.

 

Though I suspect some of the blame also lies with boaters who seem congenitally unable to utter words like "please" and "thank you" and see everything as confrontational... 😉

Edited June 14, 2023 by IanD

[Francis Herne]

re. packing boats into locks, a couple of the Severn keepers have said (paraphrasing) "That's one of those aluminum ones? I'm supposed to keep you outside the big steel lumps".

 

Superficially Lark looks rather like any other small narrowboat - the big rubber strips are an easy tell but only if you know what you're looking for - so they definitely get some training on that subject and actually pay attention to it.

Edited June 14, 2023 by Francis Herne

[Jerra]

4 hours ago, IanD said:

 

And that's either an education/training problem, or a personality problem with the volockie.

 

The first would be CARTs fault (assuming they don't already tell them to always ask the boater first), the second is difficult to avoid because there are control freaks and jobsworths in all walks of life.

 

The only realistic way to avoid this would be to get rid of all volockies, but I suggest that most boaters -- though perhaps not on CWDF going by posters who focus on their own bad experiences -- would agree that on the whole they're a good thing, especially for less experienced or solo boaters who have the biggest problems with locks... 😉

 

Only looking at your own point of view without thinking that others might see things differently is one of the big issues with society today, as has often been pointed out...

The volunteers Handbooks says:

 

They are there to offer advice on how to use locks safely and efficiently as well as some often much appreciated legwork.

 

My bold.

 

If they all eworked by the handbook I would have no problem with volunteers.

[IanD]

9 minutes ago, Jerra said:

The volunteers Handbooks says:

 

They are there to offer advice on how to use locks safely and efficiently as well as some often much appreciated legwork.

 

My bold.

 

If they all eworked by the handbook I would have no problem with volunteers.

 

So the problem is some volockies who want to be "in charge" because they think they know best, even if they don't, and have been told not to do this.

 

How do you suggest this is fixed? Regular performance checking/supervision/rating of volockies by a "canal OFSTED"? Psychological screening to remove jobsworths and control freaks?

 

Companies with much deeper pockets than CART spend considerable time and money doing this kind of thing with employees because they invest considerable money into them, and even then with limited effectiveness going by employees I've come across.

 

So how could CART could fix this problem with volunteers (not employees), no HR staff/supervisors/review mechanisms, and very little money?

 

If you don't have any solution then you're just having a moan about something which you know can't really be fixed... 😉

Edited June 14, 2023 by IanD

[magnetman]

The issue is with little Hitlers. 

 

When we get big Hitlers all hell will break loose. 

Just now, IanD said:

 

So the problem is some volockies who want to be "in charge" because they think they know best, even if they don't, and have been told not to do this.

 

How do you suggest this is fixed? Regular performance checking/supervision/rating of volockies by a "canal OFSTED"? Psychological screening to remove jobsworths and control freaks?

 

Companies with much deeper pockets than CART spend considerable time and money doing this kind of thing with employees, and even then with limited effectiveness going by employees I've come across.

 

So how could CART could fix this problem with volunteers (not employees), no HR staff/supervisors/review mechanisms, and very little money?

 

If you don't have any solution then you're just having a moan about something which you know can't really be fixed... 😉

Don't have volunteers. 

Where did the idea that people need help transiting canal locks come from ? 

 

It is not necessary to provide this service. 

[IanD]

4 minutes ago, magnetman said:

The issue is with little Hitlers. 

 

When we get big Hitlers all hell will break loose. 

Don't have volunteers. 

Great for the few people like you and Jerra who moan about volockies all the time. Not so much for the less experienced boaters (including many hire boaters) and single-handers who actually value their help or are neutral, who probably outnumber you many times over.

 

Remind me again why a small minority should get something which they want but the majority doesn't? 😉

Edited June 14, 2023 by IanD

[Jerra]

6 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

So the problem is some volockies who want to be "in charge" because they think they know best, even if they don't, and have been told not to do this.

 

How do you suggest this is fixed? Regular performance checking/supervision/rating of volockies by a "canal OFSTED"? Psychological screening to remove jobsworths and control freaks?

 

Companies with much deeper pockets than CART spend considerable time and money doing this kind of thing with employees because they invest considerable money into them, and even then with limited effectiveness going by employees I've come across.

 

So how could CART could fix this problem with volunteers (not employees), no HR staff/supervisors/review mechanisms, and very little money?

 

If you don't have any solution then you're just having a moan about something which you know can't really be fixed... 😉

Two points.

 

1.  I expect to never see you post in the political threads as nothing said can be fixed, even after a GE we have no control to ensure they do what they promised.

 

2.  As a solution I would suggest CRT widely publicise the fact they are to offer along with asking boaters to report, easily on line when this hasn't happened.  Volockies with more than X complaints require retraining and more than Y and they are no longer volunteers.

 

However that would only work if CRT give the proverbial Tinker's cuss about their customers.

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

6 minutes ago, magnetman said:

 

 

It is not necessary to provide this service. 

they are necessary for raising the profile of CRT to tick the boxes to get the funding. 
and that can be argued as a positive thing. 

 

the fact they may be of help is secondary to that. 
 

 

 

[Jerra]

7 minutes ago, IanD said:

Great for the few people like you and Jerra who moan about volockies all the time. Not so much for the less experienced boaters (including many hire boaters) and single-handers who actually value their help or are neutral, who probably outnumber you many times over.

 

Remind me again why a small minority should get something which they want but the majority doesn't? 😉

Please try to tell the truth.  I only mention volockies in discussions about volockies.  That isn't all the time and this being a discussion forum my posts are part of discussion.

 

You may not like it but it is part of discussion, people holding different opinions and expressing them.

[adam1uk]

17 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

So the problem is some volockies who want to be "in charge" because they think they know best, even if they don't, and have been told not to do this.

 

How do you suggest this is fixed? Regular performance checking/supervision/rating of volockies by a "canal OFSTED"? Psychological screening to remove jobsworths and control freaks?

 

Companies with much deeper pockets than CART spend considerable time and money doing this kind of thing with employees because they invest considerable money into them, and even then with limited effectiveness going by employees I've come across.

 

So how could CART could fix this problem with volunteers (not employees), no HR staff/supervisors/review mechanisms, and very little money?

 

If you don't have any solution then you're just having a moan about something which you know can't really be fixed... 😉

 

If there's a problem with a particular person, you can complain about them -- and I know from experience that complaints are taken seriously, are investigated, and action is taken.

3 minutes ago, Goliath said:

they are necessary for raising the profile of CRT to tick the boxes to get the funding. 
and that can be argued as a positive thing. 

 

the fact they may be of help is secondary to that. 
 

 

 

 

This is exactly right.  They're part of CRT's outreach, and actually probably do quite a good job of spreading the word.  And volunteering is know to be of value to the volunteer as much as anyone else.

 

As such, although we've had run ins with volockies on occasion, I'm not opposed to them.  You just have to have a strategy to manage them when they appear in front of you!

[IanD]

2 minutes ago, Jerra said:

Two points.

 

1.  I expect to never see you post in the political threads as nothing said can be fixed, even after a GE we have no control to ensure they do what they promised.

 

2.  As a solution I would suggest CRT widely publicise the fact they are to offer along with asking boaters to report, easily on line when this hasn't happened.  Volockies with more than X complaints require retraining and more than Y and they are no longer volunteers.

 

However that would only work if CRT give the proverbial Tinker's cuss about their customers.

1. This isn't the political forum.

2. A solution like this might actually work. It would need CART to set up an online reporting system (not too hard but still needs doing). Like police officers it would also need a way of identifying volockies like a badge number, and a way to stop "bad volockies" hiding this or giving somebody else's number.

 

But all this would cost time and effort for CART, and I suspect they have more pressing problems to worry about than some bolshy volockies annoying some experienced boaters.

 

To change this would need them to be persuading that these problems are common with a significant number of volockies and are p*ssing off a large number of boaters, otherwise it won't get any attention.

 

Unfortunately I suspect that volockies who behave like this and boaters like you who are intensely annoyed by them are in the minority... 😉

7 minutes ago, Jerra said:

Please try to tell the truth.  I only mention volockies in discussions about volockies.  That isn't all the time and this being a discussion forum my posts are part of discussion.

 

You may not like it but it is part of discussion, people holding different opinions and expressing them.

I'm simply saying that you've made the same point over and over again during this thread, and a large number of the negative posts about volockies have come from you.

4 minutes ago, adam1uk said:

 

If there's a problem with a particular person, you can complain about them -- and I know from experience that complaints are taken seriously, are investigated, and action is taken.

 

This is exactly right.  They're part of CRT's outreach, and actually probably do quite a good job of spreading the word.  And volunteering is know to be of value to the volunteer as much as anyone else.

 

As such, although we've had run ins with volockies on occasion, I'm not opposed to them.  You just have to have a strategy to manage them when they appear in front of you!

 

I've found that being polite with them and asking nicely works wonders -- for example, suggesting that there are several of us and we can do this lock just fine by ourselves, maybe you could set the next one for us?

 

If you approach volockies with the expectation that you're going to have an argument with them ("little Hitlers") and tell them aggressively to "it's my boat and my lock" -- which I've heard boaters do -- then it's hardly surprising if this is not well received.

 

Of course there will still be some complete jobsworths who you have to be firm with, but in most cases being agreeable not confrontational avoids most arguments.

 

Leastways, that's my experience... 😉

[MtB]

I think the root problem is calling them "Volunteer Lock Keepers". 

 

No matter how much training they get, there will be a rump of Vollies who believe their what those words in their job title are telling them, that they are the Lock Keepers. 

 

Lock Keepers who believe their very raison d'être is to whizz through all boats arriving their lock, whatever the views of the boat owner.   

 

 

 

Edited June 15, 2023 by MtB
Grammar!

[adam1uk]

28 minutes ago, IanD said:

I've found that being polite with them and asking nicely works wonders -- for example, suggesting that there are several of us and we can do this lock just fine by ourselves, maybe you could set the next one for us?

 

If you approach volockies with the expectation that you're going to have an argument with them ("little Hitlers") and tell them aggressively to "it's my boat and my lock" -- which I've heard boaters do -- then it's hardly surprising if this is not well received.

 

Of course there will still be some complete jobsworths who you have to be firm with, but in most cases being agreeable not confrontational avoids most arguments.

 

Leastways, that's my experience... 😉

 

Yes, this is my strategy too -- always happy to have them setting ahead.

 

But sometimes, like at Watford a few weeks ago when there were two volockies and we were the only boat (and there they really are in charge because you have to book in with them -- and they actually do seem to know what they're doing) I found that after the first couple of locks where I didn't get the wind a paddle at all, I had to position myself strategically near the staircase paddles before they could get there!  Eventually one of them went to get a coffee.

[IanD]

36 minutes ago, MtB said:

I think the root problem is calling them "Volunteer Lock Keepers". 

 

No matter how much training they get, there will be a rump of Vollies who believe their what those words in their job title are telling them, that they are the Lock Keepers. 

 

Lock Keepers whose very raison d'être is to whizz all boats arriving through their lock, whatever the views of the boat owner.   

And they're the volockies that people are objecting to, but as you say they're "a rump", and in my experience outnumbered by helpful ones who are happy to listen to what the boater says.

 

There's also something to be said for the fact that if they're on the same locks regularly and understand how they work, they can know more about the best way to get through them than many boaters, especially if there are slightly tricky bywashes or fierce paddles.

 

Maybe they should be called "Locks Assistants" or "Lock Advisers" to make it clear that -- unlike in places like the 5-rise or Foxton -- they're not in charge, they're there to assist and advise?

[MtB]

5 minutes ago, IanD said:

And they're the volockies that people are objecting to, but as you say they're "a rump", and in my experience outnumbered by helpful ones who are happy to listen to what the boater says.

 

There's also something to be said for the fact that if they're on the same locks regularly and understand how they work, they can know more about the best way to get through them than many boaters, especially if there are slightly tricky bywashes or fierce paddles.

 

Maybe they should be called "Locks Assistants" or "Lock Advisers" to make it clear that -- unlike in places like the 5-rise or Foxton -- they're not in charge, they're there to assist and advise?

 

 

"Lock Gardeners and advisers" perhaps, to make it clear what their duties are?! 

 

 

[adam1uk]

1 minute ago, IanD said:

There's also something to be said for the fact that if they're on the same locks regularly and understand how they work, they can know more about the best way to get through them than many boaters, especially if there are slightly tricky bywashes or fierce paddles.

 

 

Although this is not guaranteed.  The problem we had a few years ago was at our local locks, Stoke Bruerne.  All local boaters would know that if you're coming up as a single boat, the best way to work is to open the ground paddle on the boat side and the gate paddle on the other side.  It keeps the boat nicely to one side and means it's not sent back and forth across the lock. The volockie insisted that we shouldn't open a gate paddle yet, tried ordering us to close it, and then swore at us.  I think it was the swearing that actually did for him, as he's no longer a volunteer.

 

But I have also had to demonstrate this way of operating the locks to other volunteers there -- and fortunately most now seem to know about it.  But with most of them not being boaters, the only knowledge they start off with is the theoretical correct order of opening paddles.

[IanD]

13 minutes ago, adam1uk said:

 

Although this is not guaranteed.  The problem we had a few years ago was at our local locks, Stoke Bruerne.  All local boaters would know that if you're coming up as a single boat, the best way to work is to open the ground paddle on the boat side and the gate paddle on the other side.  It keeps the boat nicely to one side and means it's not sent back and forth across the lock. The volockie insisted that we shouldn't open a gate paddle yet, tried ordering us to close it, and then swore at us.  I think it was the swearing that actually did for him, as he's no longer a volunteer.

 

But I have also had to demonstrate this way of operating the locks to other volunteers there -- and fortunately most now seem to know about it.  But with most of them not being boaters, the only knowledge they start off with is the theoretical correct order of opening paddles.

 

I did say "if they're on the same locks regularly and understand how they work", meaning obviously not for all volockies... 😉

 

It still seems to me that overall for boaters volockies are a good thing, even though some of them annoy some boaters most are helpful and appreciated by most boaters. That's not the same as saying they're all perfect, because everyone knows they're not... 😉

 

13 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

"Lock Gardeners and advisers" perhaps, to make it clear what their duties are?! 

 

 

Just bear in mind that volunteers are less likely to want to do a job with a menial title, just like employees -- except they don't need a job, they can just walk away if they're treated like sh*t... 😉

 

(hence "waste disposal operatives", "effluent treatment technicians"...)

Edited June 14, 2023 by IanD

[LadyG]

1 hour ago, Jerra said:

Two points.

 

1.  I expect to never see you post in the political threads as nothing said can be fixed, even after a GE we have no control to ensure they do what they promised.

 

2.  As a solution I would suggest CRT widely publicise the fact they are to offer along with asking boaters to report, easily on line when this hasn't happened.  Volockies with more than X complaints require retraining and more than Y and they are no longer volunteers.

 

However that would only work if CRT give the proverbial Tinker's cuss about their customers.

You need to ask the guy his name as CRT are unable to identify, from my description, a CRT bod in charge of a group of painting vollies at lock #, at 15.00, on the C &H.

They don't want to know, as I pointed out, it's not about one person it's about the training they get, and the ease with which they hand MY windlass over to some nonentity. THEN tell the nonentity to turn the windlass. No reference to me, no mention of boat, just showing some nonentity that winding a windlass will raise a bit of metal. Al done with no reference to me and with back to the lock. The same bod is a repeat offender. If he comes near me again I will ask to to see his qualification and insurance certificate.

Edited June 14, 2023 by LadyG