Using an Ecofan the wrong way?

[frahkn]

Just now, Sea Dog said:

Are you waiting until you're ready for one of those big ones you put both feet in?  

Breaking my duck, not my neck.

[Dr Bob]

3 hours ago, frahkn said:

 

I don't really feel like breaking my duck.

Please dont break my duck. He wont like it.

[Dr Bob]

4 hours ago, doratheexplorer said:

I had an ecofan.  It didn't do anything.  So I bought slippers instead.

I hoped my ecofan would make the tea. It doesnt. So I get Mrs Bob to do it instead.

[matty40s]

3 hours ago, mrsmelly said:

I see that strong beer was involved lol.

They went even faster once we cracked the Ardberg...

[bizzard]

By disrupting the natural upward thermal current with Ecofans would cause Seagulls, Vultures, Eagles Albatrosses ect, in fact most birds soar and glide about using the thermal up currents near the ceiling. Disrupt it and they'd have to waste energy flapping their wings more and have to eat more to stay aloft. 

[Machpoint005]

4 hours ago, blackrose said:

Heat convection is a circular movement and if the natural convection currents are assisted and increased then the whole boat should warm up quicker.

 

The only way the fan can do anything work is by using energy. That energy can only come from the heat of the stove. Any change of energy transfer results in a loss. That means that regardless of whcih way the fan "blows" you are changing heat energy into electricity, changing electricity into kinetic energy (fan rotation) then transforming the kinetic enery back into a convection current.

 

You are therefore better off sticking with the convection current, full stop, instead of throwing away some of the energy. Second Law of Thermodynamics.

 

Ecofans are a waste of tiime, money and energy.  

 

 

 

Edited November 26, 2019 by Machpoint005
.

[mark99]

40 minutes ago, Machpoint005 said:

 

The only way the fan can do anything work is by using energy. That energy can only come from the heat of the stove. Any change of energy transfer results in a loss. That means that regardless of whcih way the fan "blows" you are changing heat energy into electricity, changing electricity into kinetic energy (fan rotation) then transforming the kinetic enery back into a convection current.

 

You are therefore better off sticking with the convection current, full stop, instead of throwing away some of the energy. Second Law of Thermodynamics.

 

Ecofans are a waste of tiime, money and energy.  

 

 

 

So any electric heater with a fan is better without it?

 

Too simplistic. You may lose energy to sound but its the circulation comfort thats important.

Edited November 26, 2019 by mark99

[1agos]

We have an Eco-fan on the Epping. It's very useful, lets me know when  I need to put more coal in. 

[mrsmelly]

1 hour ago, Machpoint005 said:

 

The only way the fan can do anything work is by using energy. That energy can only come from the heat of the stove. Any change of energy transfer results in a loss. That means that regardless of whcih way the fan "blows" you are changing heat energy into electricity, changing electricity into kinetic energy (fan rotation) then transforming the kinetic enery back into a convection current.

 

You are therefore better off sticking with the convection current, full stop, instead of throwing away some of the energy. Second Law of Thermodynamics.

 

Ecofans are a waste of tiime, money and energy.  

 

 

 

Awww dont spoil it!! Course they work if youve paid 80 squids for one lol

[frahkn]

25 minutes ago, mark99 said:

So any electric heater with a fan is better without it?

 

Too simplistic. You may lose energy to sound but its the circulation comfort thats important.

I agree with this. My feet are warmer with the fan on. This is not a myth, my imagination, psychosomatic, lunacy, quantum tunnelling or any other effect. It's just a more even distribution of the warm air near the stove.

 

Not to be dogmatic or anything.

[mrsmelly]

1 minute ago, frahkn said:

I agree with this. My feet are warmer with the fan on. This is not a myth, my imagination, psychosomatic, lunacy, quantum tunnelling or any other effect. It's just a more even distribution of the warm air near the stove.

 

Not to be dogmatic or anything.

The Placebo effect is a well documented and proven matter innitt.

[cuthound]

10 minutes ago, 1agos said:

We have an Eco-fan on the Epping. It's very useful, lets me know when  I need to put more coal in. 

 

I'll bet @doratheexplorer's slippers can't do that! ?

[Jen-in-Wellies]

Reversing the ecofan gives you air conditioning on those hot summer days. Just save the ash and empty coal bags from the winter. When the weather gets too hot simply fill the ash pan with ash and place it in the stove. Put the ecofan on top, facing away from the room and give the blades a flick to get it started. Marvel as you boat cools to a comfortable temperature. You need to remember to remove the coal from above the grate a couple of times a day as it fills up and regularly stoke up the ash pan. If you've remembered to save your coal sacks you'll have somewhere to store it ready for the next winter. You won't completely regenerate all the coal you've used. There are some losses that are impossible to eliminate. Thermodynamics, as @Machpoint005 has said.

 

Jen

[Machpoint005]

5 hours ago, mark99 said:

So any electric heater with a fan is better without it?

 

Too simplistic. You may lose energy to sound but its the circulation comfort thats important.

 

(1) No, I never said that, but you have to agree that the fan on an electric fan heater uses energy which is not used for heating.

 

(2) I never said the energy was lost in the form of sound (it does, but the amount of energy used in that way is minuscule). There are, however, unavoidable frictional losses, and if the fan is doing work on the air it is using energy to do so. If it is not doing work on the air, it isn't providing kinetic energy to the airflow, so it is not doing anything. The circulation comfort, as you call it, comes at an energy cost. The Second Law of Thermodynamics isn't simplistic - it is simple. Mind you, you may be one of those who people who thinks leaving the fridge door open will cool the room. 

 

(3) As mrsmelly has said, the placebo effect exists. It tends to self-reinforce.

5 hours ago, frahkn said:

Not to be dogmatic or anything.

No, you are not being dogmatic, but you are fooling yourself if you think that the Second Law doesn't apply.

[Sea Dog]

7 hours ago, Machpoint005 said:

 

The only way the fan can do anything work is by using energy. That energy can only come from the heat of the stove. Any change of energy transfer results in a loss. That means that regardless of whcih way the fan "blows" you are changing heat energy into electricity, changing electricity into kinetic energy (fan rotation) then transforming the kinetic enery back into a convection current.

 

You are therefore better off sticking with the convection current, full stop, instead of throwing away some of the energy. Second Law of Thermodynamics.

 

Ecofans are a waste of tiime, money and energy.  

 

 

 

You see, you're likening an Ecofan to a power driven supercharger, but it's more like a turbo utilsing waste energy.  This is the reason why: a. you don't hear it squealing like a banshee as the revs rise; and b. it doesn't blow your hat off.  Even @mrsmelly secretly knows it gives a 5kW stove the potential to pump out heat like a 10kW stove though.  The reason folk don't think they work is that they're miserly and are fuelling their 5kW stove like a 3kw stove - you can't get owt for nowt.

[Dr Bob]

11 minutes ago, Sea Dog said:

You see, you're likening an Ecofan to a power driven supercharger, but it's more like a turbo utilsing waste energy.  This is the reason why: a. you don't hear it squealing like a banshee as the revs rise; and b. it doesn't blow your hat off.  Even @mrsmelly secretly knows it gives a 5kW stove the potential to pump out heat like a 10kW stove though.  The reason folk don't think they work is that they're miserly and are fuelling their 5kW stove like a 3kw stove - you can't get owt for nowt.

Our duck likes it.

[frahkn]

2 hours ago, Machpoint005 said:

 

 

No, you are not being dogmatic, but you are fooling yourself if you think that the Second Law doesn't apply.

I think I was being dogmatic but the fan redistributing warm air from ceiling to floor (and of course, wasting some energy in the process) does not violate the 2nd law.

 

Happily this means that my feet don't have to rely on the placebo effect so they actually get warm. 

[blackrose]

17 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

And, some deluded folk actually believe an Ecofan (other brands available) works

 

Theres enough anecdotal and also some empirical evidence to suggest that they do work on some boats. They didn't on mine because in my 12ft wide saloon natural convection currents prevail, but in  the confines of narrowboats I think they can help.

[blackrose]

15 hours ago, Machpoint005 said:

 

The only way the fan can do anything work is by using energy. That energy can only come from the heat of the stove. Any change of energy transfer results in a loss. That means that regardless of whcih way the fan "blows" you are changing heat energy into electricity, changing electricity into kinetic energy (fan rotation) then transforming the kinetic enery back into a convection current.

 

You are therefore better off sticking with the convection current, full stop, instead of throwing away some of the energy. Second Law of Thermodynamics.

 

Ecofans are a waste of tiime, money and energy.  

 

 

 

 

Your oversimplified use of the second law of thermodynamics can't really be used to support your opinion. And that's all it is I'm afraid. Nobody is disputing that the energy used by the fan must come from somewhere and nobody is suggesting that energy is somehow created from nothing. Any losses in heat output from the stove to run the fan are minimal and in some cases the transformation into kinetic energy may result in those convection currents increasing and being more evenly distributed. So what we're talking about is converting a minimal amount of stove energy to kinetic energy to improve the efficiency of the system.

 

If your rationale was correct the second law of thermodynamics could be used to show that any efficiency improvements in any thermodynamic systems don't work without additional overall use of energy in the system - which of course isn't true.

 

14 hours ago, mrsmelly said:

Awww dont spoil it!! Course they work if youve paid 80 squids for one lol

 

That was 15 years ago. You can buy them on eBay for as low as £22 now.

Edited November 27, 2019 by blackrose

[blackrose]

12 hours ago, mrsmelly said:

The Placebo effect is a well documented and proven matter innitt.

But what about the empirical evidence given on the other ecofan thread?

[doratheexplorer]

14 hours ago, cuthound said:

 

I'll bet @doratheexplorer's slippers can't do that! ?

You'd be amazed at what my slippers can do. 

[Dr Bob]

1 hour ago, blackrose said:

But what about the empirical evidence given on the other ecofan thread?

Yea! Conclusive proof! ?

[roland elsdon]

16 hours ago, Machpoint005 said:

 

The only way the fan can do anything work is by using energy. That energy can only come from the heat of the stove. Any change of energy transfer results in a loss. That means that regardless of whcih way the fan "blows" you are changing heat energy into electricity, changing electricity into kinetic energy (fan rotation) then transforming the kinetic enery back into a convection current.

 

You are therefore better off sticking with the convection current, full stop, instead of throwing away some of the energy. Second Law of Thermodynamics.

 

Ecofans are a waste of tiime, money and energy.  

 

 

 

Ahh but what about the furious  heat created by friction in the bearings and shaft as well ,as the ecofan absorbs energy and converts it into a raging tornado of hot air. This significant heat increase has to be factored in.

 

A true advert for eco fans should promote this, indeed in an ideal world a mini heat recovery ecofan should be mounted on the motor housing.

 

i think we are near to perpetual motion here.

[Keeping Up]

3 hours ago, blackrose said:

 

Your oversimplified use of the second law of thermodynamics can't really be used to support your opinion. And that's all it is I'm afraid. Nobody is disputing that the energy used by the fan must come from somewhere and nobody is suggesting that energy is somehow created from nothing. Any losses in heat output from the stove to run the fan are minimal and in some cases the transformation into kinetic energy may result in those convection currents increasing and being more evenly distributed. So what we're talking about is converting a minimal amount of stove energy to kinetic energy to improve the efficiency of the system.

Surely the kinetic energy is converted into thermal energy as the moving air slows down and stops

[Dr Bob]

4 hours ago, roland elsdon said:

 

i think we are near to perpetual motion here.

My motions are doing fine without external intervention, thank you very much.