Question re engine oil and coolant

[DannyC]

At the boat yard we filled up the manifold and the header tank was dry. The guy helping us said this acts like an overflow when the pressure gets too high (?). Anyway, checking today it is completely dry still/again.

[WotEver]

16 minutes ago, DannyC said:

At the boat yard we filled up the manifold and the header tank was dry. The guy helping us said this acts like an overflow when the pressure gets too high (?). Anyway, checking today it is completely dry still/again.

Fill it almost to the brim. It WILL spit a fair bit back out when the engine gets hot due to expansion. Check the temp gauge. Up to 100C is okay, beyond that isn’t. Assuming the temp remains okay mop up what it spat out and when the engine is cold check the level. That’s the ‘normal’ level for your system. If it keeps disappearing then find the leak. 

[bizzard]

And if the coolant in the header tank keeps rising and falling with the engine running its riding on air, air lock.  In that case 'filler cap off',  try squeesing the hoses or blipping the throttle up and down which often causes the air to burp out in big bubbles out of the filler neck and the level will fall, if this happens keep topping it up.

[blackrose]

On 26/01/2019 at 11:51, BWM said:

That shouldn't make any difference, other than the water level would normally be slightly higher when hot.

As others have said, temp can make a significant difference. It does on mine anyway. Warm liquids expand and both oil and water levels are higher. Given that the oil level difference between full and "empty" might be only half an inch on some dipsticks it often does make a difference and strictly speaking you should always be reading fluid levels warm/hot on any engine.

Edited January 27, 2019 by blackrose

[BWM]

2 hours ago, DannyC said:

Hey - thanks for you replies. 

 

I got to a chandlery and picked up some oil. That is all sorted.

 

So - as one posted mentioned, this is a case of I thought "oh crap, I need to check water/ oil etc" this isn't something I haven't been doing regularly (woops). So when I looked there was no water in the manifold tank. I asked at the boat yard where I bought the oil and the guy suggested I fill it up with roughly a pint of water and check the level after my hour long journey to my next destination. The guy at the boat yard noted that the temperature on the gauge seemed ok, but he said that if I very quickly run out of water then I have a leak somewhere.

 

Today we ran the engine for a couple of hours in neutral to recharge the batteries. My girlfriend noticed that the temperature gauge was at 100 C. We turned off the engine and checked the manifold tank again - no water.

 

Also, we are not getting any hot water from the calorifier after running the engine. At first we thought this was because we had tampered with the anti scold dial on the calorifier tank, but we are wondering if this is all related.

 

Any ideas on what the problem might be or what steps I can take to check things.

 

Thanks

 

As said by wotever, you need to fill up completely to be sure there is enough in the system, the pint before journey sounds like a bum steer. And an airlock seems likely, you could do worse than follow bizzards advice and if on a skin tank, look for a bleed - most likely a square drive outlet, air in here will give no end of problems. Don't check the level in the header/manifold when hot as it could ruin your looks! Many have had a facefull of boiling water doing that. Once you are happy that any leak or cooling issues are cured, you would be best to drain down and add the correct antifreeze mix.

1 hour ago, blackrose said:

As others have said, temp can make a significant difference. It does on mine anyway. Warm liquids expand and both oil and water levels are higher. Given that the oil level difference between full and "empty" might be only half an inch on some dipsticks it often does make a difference and strictly speaking you should always be reading fluid levels warm/hot on any engine.

That's why i acknowledged that the water levels may be higher in my question but with the OP saying there was none present temperature would seem irrelevant. I have never experienced a significant difference in oil level due to temperature, however. 

 

[Machpoint005]

On 26/01/2019 at 12:47, bizzard said:

And if you top up the coolant don't just tip neat antifreeze into it, mix it first with water to your chosen ratio. Mix up a gallon or so so you have the correct mixture to top up with in future. I'd mix it with distilled or rain water rather than tap water.

That's because the water round your way is full of chemicals! Proper soft water is fine.

[Flyboy]

57 minutes ago, Machpoint005 said:

That's because the water round your way is full of chemicals! Proper soft water is fine.

So is yours, it's called Chlorine.

[DannyC]

Ok. Thanks for the advice.

 

Plan of action: Try to bleed the skin tank (if we can find the outlet), fill up with water and run the engine with the cap off - see what is happening to the water levels as it is running. Do we fill up both the manifold tank and the white header tank?

 

Thanks

[DannyC]

Ran the engine for about 45 minutes- temp at 110 when I finished. When I put the water in couldn't see any leaks. It bubbled a bit and then settled. I haven't had the opportunity to check the water level after running the engine as its still hot. 

[DannyC]

Just looked in the manifold tank - no water , again I didn't put much water in to fill it - about a pints worth and then its full. I can't see where it is leaking too. Definitely not the bilge. 

 

 

[rusty69]

A leaky calorifier coil?

[Stilllearning]

If you undo the oil filler cap on the top of the engine, and look inside, what colour oil do you see? Is it black and shiny, or some other colour?

[Flyboy]

36 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

A leaky calorifier coil?

Unlikely, because the pressurised water in the calorifier would be forced into the engine cooling system.

[Up-Side-Down]

On 26/01/2019 at 20:25, jonesthenuke said:

Not really. The First C of the code means its for Diesel engines (C = Compression ignition). The important bit is the second letter. If your engine is supposed to have CC, then that is a fairly old fashioned oil and modern oils will be unsuitable (and more unsuitable the further you move from CC). See the following for the specs, but note this does not provide guidance on using modern oils in old engines, its written from the perspective of explaining what modern oils do. Consequently you will see that they classify the grades that many boat owners are looking for (like CC) as obsolete. This does not mean that it cannot be bought but should not be specified for new designs.

https://www.api.org/products-and-services/engine-oil/eolcs-categories-and-classifications/oil-categories#tab-diesel-c-categories

That's a very useful table when it comes to choosing the correct specification of oil for a particular diesel engine and it will go on file. Thank you for posting

[WotEver]

2 hours ago, DannyC said:

Just looked in the manifold tank - no water , again I didn't put much water in to fill it - about a pints worth and then its full.

I suspect you have a fair bit of air in the circuit. 

[Guest]

20 hours ago, bizzard said:

And if the coolant in the header tank keeps rising and falling with the engine running its riding on air, air lock.  In that case 'filler cap off',  try squeesing the hoses or blipping the throttle up and down which often causes the air to burp out in big bubbles out of the filler neck and the level will fall, if this happens keep topping it up.

Our Vetus always behaves like this when I change the coolant. Always air locks in the calorifier feeds. Venting at highest point and squeezing hoses with cap removed (engine running) always cures it.

Edited January 28, 2019 by Guest

[cuthound]

4 hours ago, Up-Side-Down said:

That's a very useful table when it comes to choosing the correct specification of oil for a particular diesel engine and it will go on file. Thank you for posting

 

It relates to purely automotive use.

 

Car engines are much more highly stressed than leisure boat engines, and thus the high performance additives in modern car engine oils can cause problems for modern boat diesels running a low speed on light loads. For this reason many engine marinisers (Beta, Vetus etc) specify lower specification oils, such as CC, CD etc. 

[jonesthenuke]

13 hours ago, cuthound said:

 

It relates to purely automotive use.

 

Car engines are much more highly stressed than leisure boat engines, and thus the high performance additives in modern car engine oils can cause problems for modern boat diesels running a low speed on light loads. For this reason many engine marinisers (Beta, Vetus etc) specify lower specification oils, such as CC, CD etc. 

It's not just that. The older grades are non-detergent or low detergent and only these oils are suitable for some old engines where reliance was placed on the crud dropping out in the sump rather than being removed by a full flow filter. A modern oil would allow the crud to stay in suspension. Thus a "better" oil is not good for these old engines.

[cuthound]

4 hours ago, jonesthenuke said:

It's not just that. The older grades are non-detergent or low detergent and only these oils are suitable for some old engines where reliance was placed on the crud dropping out in the sump rather than being removed by a full flow filter. A modern oil would allow the crud to stay in suspension. Thus a "better" oil is not good for these old engines.

 

Exactly, the detergents are part of the performance additives. That is why a modern plant diesel such as a Beta 43 (Kubota base sngine) witb a large sump running on 15w50 CC spec oil still has visibly clean oil after a couple of hundred hours running, whereas a modern car has visibly dirty oil minutes after an oil change.

Edited January 29, 2019 by cuthound
Clarification

[Victor Vectis]

On 27/01/2019 at 08:36, mrsmelly said:

4,546 correct without resorting to google? Thing was years ago when foreign measurements came in we got a tad more which was good whereas today we get less. A downgrade as it were rather like every other aspect of life.

A bit like the entry fee to Kew Gardens.

 

If memory serves it used to be 3d but became 1p on decimalisation, a reduction of 0.6 of an old penny!

[jonesthenuke]

3 hours ago, cuthound said:

 

Exactly, the detergents are part of the performance additives. That is why a modern plant diesel such as a Beta 43 (Kubota base sngine) witb a large sump running on 15w50 CC spec oil still has visibly clean oil after a couple of hundred hours running, whereas a modern car has visibly dirty oil minutes after an oil change.

Yes, our Gardner 3LW is the same. It seems odd changing the oil when it looks "OK"

[DannyC]

Hi all,

 

Ok, so I managed to bleed the skin tank. We then filled the manifold tank until water started coming out of the skin tank release nozzle. It seemed to drink a lot of water once the air block was gone, so it must've had no water in it.

 

We ran the engine last night and this morning with no over-heating problems AND... we got some hot water through the taps today.

 

When I checked the manifold tank this morning the water had gone right down again, so I topped up again today as I presume the circuit is stills filling up with water.

 

Fingers crossed that it is sorted for now!

[Tony Brooks]

1 hour ago, DannyC said:

Hi all,

 

Ok, so I managed to bleed the skin tank. We then filled the manifold tank until water started coming out of the skin tank release nozzle. It seemed to drink a lot of water once the air block was gone, so it must've had no water in it.

 

We ran the engine last night and this morning with no over-heating problems AND... we got some hot water through the taps today.

 

When I checked the manifold tank this morning the water had gone right down again, so I topped up again today as I presume the circuit is stills filling up with water.

 

Fingers crossed that it is sorted for now!

 

If you have a manifold tank and a separate expansion tank then the expansion tank should keep the manifold tank more or less full. The level in the expansion tank should go up and down with temperature. Much depends upon the exact design but typical for this to happen you need a perfect seal on the manifold tanks filler cap and not one with a spring under it UNLESS the spring pressure is much higher than the one on the expansion tank. Many variations so you may have no pressure cap on the expansion tank and a pressure cap with an extra seal under the "lid" on the manifold.

 

Photos     may help see exactly what you have got.

 

 

[Flyboy]

16 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

If you have a manifold tank and a separate expansion tank then the expansion tank should keep the manifold tank more or less full. The level in the expansion tank should go up and down with temperature. Much depends upon the exact design but typical for this to happen you need a perfect seal on the manifold tanks filler cap and not one with a spring under it UNLESS the spring pressure is much higher than the one on the expansion tank. Many variations so you may have no pressure cap on the expansion tank and a pressure cap with an extra seal under the "lid" on the manifold.

 

Photos     may help see exactly what you have got.

 

 

The Barrus engine has a large screw in brass plug on the manifold.

[Tony Brooks]

18 hours ago, Flyboy said:

The Barrus engine has a large screw in brass plug on the manifold.

In that case something is wrong. I think a cooling system pressure test might be the next step - as long as the system is now fully bled.