Lack of platforms at locks

[David Mack]

1 hour ago, john6767 said:

As has been said crossing in the top of the beam with a handrail is the most common arrangement.  Keep one hand on the rail and go slowly, and if you can get your windlass out the the way so it is not a snag hazard then that frees up both hands.  Whilst I am not going to advise against a lifejacket they do create an additional hazard of getting cought up.  If you were a CRT volunteer then you presumably would have to wear one and I expect they give specific training on the addition hazards when wearing one.

And when you get more confident, on the narrow canals you can do this:

[sirweste]

The person in charge of the lock is the boat steerer. Do what they say basically. 

 

Sounds like you're doing everything right, explaining that you're not a volly and are just there to help if they want it. If out does go wrong you should be following the steerers instructions, as I'm sure you would. If their inexperienced / untrained too then they would have only know as much as you do, so no loss.

 

I'd be chuffed to bits if I saw a bloke such as yourself helping me lock through. 

 

I'd say generally training would be useful, but on the whole being smart, listening to experience crews advice and time on locks is what you need.

[Stilllearning]

10 minutes ago, David Mack said:

And when you get more confident, on the narrow canals you can do this:

 Mrs S doesn’t like me doing this, but after almost 30 years of mainly single handing, it is difficult to imagine doing a narrow lock any other way.

[GuyBarry]

6 minutes ago, sirweste said:

The person in charge of the lock is the boat steerer. Do what they say basically. 

 

Don't worry, I always do!  I always wait for a signal from the boat steerer before opening the paddles at either end (I made the mistake of not waiting at the bottom end once and washed the boat out, which he wasn't too happy about).  When the lock's full, I'll sometimes open the gates at the top without a signal if I see a boat coming, because I can't think why they wouldn't want them open, but otherwise the boat steerer is definitely in control.

 

When I was helping a boat through Bath Deep Lock it was actually quite scary, because I couldn't see the boat or communicate with the boat steerer in any way.  I didn't know when to close the gate or anything.  That lock really ought to be permanently staffed (and not just by volunteers).

[dmr]

32 minutes ago, GuyBarry said:

I never get involved in the boat handling - I stick to the lock operation.  I always explain to people that I'm not an "official" volunteer and that I'm just helping out.  I make sure that the boat's over the cill when it's going down.  When I'm opening the paddles at the top end I do so very cautiously to avoid sudden surges of water (there's a huge leak at that end which doesn't help at all).  I always appreciate advice from experienced boaters (including members of this forum) so thank you very much for all your comments.

 

The C&RT never has volunteers on that stretch of the river as far as I know; I'm told they use them on the flight at the start of the canal proper, although I didn't see any when I was up there.  If I became a C&RT volunteer they'd presumably send me up there rather than using me on the river where I mainly know what I'm doing.

But you are involved in boat handling, you are sending water into a lock to move a boat. Many boaters would say that the person driving the boat is responsible for the back of the boat, and the person working the lock is responsible for the front of the boat, so you are in charge of half of a boat.

 

If you have a bit of spare cash why not send yourself on a boat handling course where you will learn a lot about locking, likely more than from CaRT training. I would seriously recommend TR boat handling. Regard it as a little "activity holiday" to justify the cost, and it probably works out cheaper than hiring a boat for the same period. There is another "unofficial" lock keeper at the Eastern end who is very good, probably better than many CaRT volunteers

 

................Dave

 

 

[GuyBarry]

14 minutes ago, sirweste said:

I'd be chuffed to bits if I saw a bloke such as yourself helping me lock through. 

A lot of people are!  I've made a lot of friends doing this and had a lot of fascinating conversations with people from all over the country and even as far away as New Zealand.  I'm sure I'd benefit from formal training but I like to think I've learned enough to be some use to people.  I had a lovely trip up the river to Pulteney Weir yesterday and then another short trip from the top of the Bath flight and through the tunnel at Sydney Gardnns.  I'd have gone on to Bathampton but it would have been a long way to walk back home!

[sirweste]

If you were up this way I'd be happy to have you aboard and show you what I've learnt - though I've had no lessons and just figured it would / listened to wisdom

[dmr]

30 minutes ago, David Mack said:

And when you get more confident, on the narrow canals you can do this:

I promised myself to stop doing that once I turned 60, but have compromised by only doing it in dry conditions. Also I do the step that you are doing but not the other way (stepping onto a closed gate). Should point out to the OP this is a double gate on a narrow lock, not to be done on the K&A ?

[nicknorman]

Wolverhampton 21 I think?

[larryjc]

3 hours ago, nicknorman said:

I’m afraid clambering onto the gate beam and crossing with the help of a handrail is just how it is, and how it’s been for 100s of years. Some locks have gate paddles, some have ground paddles, some both or either. Generally locks don’t have gate paddles on the top gates due to the flows created having the potential to sink the boat, but some do either in conjunction with ground paddles, or on their own. Some locks have gate paddles and you still cross over the gate, just avoiding the paddle mechanism.

Plenty of K&A locks have gate paddles in the top gates and no deflector plates to stop the water coming in almost a third of the way into the lock if you open them too fast.  I'm amazed more boats haven't been sunk.  Note in this photo we've barely opened them. 

[GuyBarry]

That's the main problem with Weston Lock - there is so much water coming in at the top end, even when the paddles are down.  It's definitely got worse over the last year or so that I've been observing it.  It's got to the situation where if you only open one paddle at the lower end, the lock doesn't empty.  I've seen boats almost stranded in the lock because of this.

 

If a boat goes out of the lower end and closes the gates and paddles in the approved fashion, the lock immediately starts to fill up again (I think it takes about an hour and a half if no one else goes through).  I sometimes wonder whether it would be better to tell people to leave the lower lock gates open - indeed I do if I know they're coming back soon and can stay to check for boats coming down.

Edited July 3, 2018 by GuyBarry

[Jerra]

2 minutes ago, GuyBarry said:

I sometimes wonder whether it would be better to tell people to leave the lower lock gates open - indeed I do if I know they're coming back soon and can stay to check for boats coming down.

I suspect you are opening a can of worms with this.  However my view if the bottom gates are holding water then having them closed reduces the loss of water to the system, assuming the next boat takes more than 1 1/2 hours to arrive e.g. over night.  As a boater can't tell he will be the last boat the gates IMO should be closed.

[GuyBarry]

There's loads of water in the River Avon - "loss of water to the system" isn't really a factor as it is on a canal, as I understand it.

 

I wouldn't recommend that people leave the gates open when I'm not there to keep an eye on it.

[dmr]

50 minutes ago, GuyBarry said:

There's loads of water in the River Avon - "loss of water to the system" isn't really a factor as it is on a canal, as I understand it.

 

I wouldn't recommend that people leave the gates open when I'm not there to keep an eye on it.

 

The Bristol Avon is usually ok but rivers do run out of water, it happens on the Thames in a long dry summer, and here on the Weaver lock use is now restricted due to lack of water.  Have a look at how much water is coming over Palteney weir just now, and think about how long that would take to fill a lock.

 

..............Dave

[David Mack]

3 hours ago, dmr said:

I promised myself to stop doing that once I turned 60, but have compromised by only doing it in dry conditions. Also I do the step that you are doing but not the other way (stepping onto a closed gate).  ?

Not me, just a photo I found online.

I still do it both ways. But I am much more careful that when I was younger.

[system 4-50]

If you are helping with a lot of locks, and I do mean a lot, then I suggest you get yourself some insurance.  Even if you do not cause an accident, and by the sound of what you say that is unlikely that you will, it is still possible for other people to blame you even when it is their fault.

Edited July 3, 2018 by system 4-50

[Mike Todd]

32 minutes ago, system 4-50 said:

If you are helping with a lot of locks, and I do mean a lot, then I suggest you get yourself some insurance.  Even if you do not cause an accident, and by the sound of what you say that is unlikely that you will, it is still possible for other people to blame you even when it is their fault.

That's one of the bigger benefits of being an official volunteer as CaRT provide it for you. 

Edited July 3, 2018 by Mike Todd

[zenataomm]

I'm not overly fond of CRT volunteers working any lock my boat is in.

They don't know the emergency signals I employ.  Plus working the lock is part of the fun for me, even singlehanded.  However sometimes it's easier for everyone else in the queue to go along with it, safe in the knowledge the volunteers are following a procedure and are at least covered.

 

So well meaning members of the public with no training or understanding of responsibilities let alone insurance worries me.

Being hard of hearing I could easily mishear any explanation covering not being a CRT approved volunteer.

[GuyBarry]

18 minutes ago, zenataomm said:

So well meaning members of the public with no training or understanding of responsibilities let alone insurance worries me.

Being hard of hearing I could easily mishear any explanation covering not being a CRT approved volunteer.

C&RT volunteers wear a uniform, so you'd be unlikely to mistake me for one.

[ditchcrawler]

1 hour ago, GuyBarry said:

C&RT volunteers wear a uniform, so you'd be unlikely to mistake me for one.

Diana often gets mistaken for one if wearing a blue tee shirt. but she doesn't wear a life jacket.

[Rob-M]

9 hours ago, David Mack said:

And when you get more confident, on the narrow canals you can do this:

I've seen someone jumping between the gates on a K&A wide lock, not quite so close on those.

[mayalld]

18 hours ago, zenataomm said:

I'm not overly fond of CRT volunteers working any lock my boat is in.

They don't know the emergency signals I employ.  Plus working the lock is part of the fun for me, even singlehanded.  However sometimes it's easier for everyone else in the queue to go along with it, safe in the knowledge the volunteers are following a procedure and are at least covered.

 

So well meaning members of the public with no training or understanding of responsibilities let alone insurance worries me.

Being hard of hearing I could easily mishear any explanation covering not being a CRT approved volunteer.

That sums it up for me.

 

Whilst the OP, from the way he posts, is undoubtedly keen, and perceives what he is doing to be helpful to others and enjoyable for himself, he rather failed at the first hurdle for me with his answer to the question as to who is in charge of the lock.

 

A lack of understanding that the helmsman is in charge of both boat and lock, and a belief that he has taught himself enough to be competent to work locks for other people without a clear view of who decides what is going to happen is not a good idea.

 

I would also suggest that any privateer helper is, unless invited to help by a boater, in breach of bye-law 50.

 

Sorry, but it does strike me that this is all about the OP wanting to operate locks, and being so impatient to do so that he won't delay doing so until he has been trained as a volunteer.

[nicknorman]

5 minutes ago, mayalld said:

That sums it up for me.

 

Whilst the OP, from the way he posts, is undoubtedly keen, and perceives what he is doing to be helpful to others and enjoyable for himself, he rather failed at the first hurdle for me with his answer to the question as to who is in charge of the lock.

 

A lack of understanding that the helmsman is in charge of both boat and lock, and a belief that he has taught himself enough to be competent to work locks for other people without a clear view of who decides what is going to happen is not a good idea.

 

I would also suggest that any privateer helper is, unless invited to help by a boater, in breach of bye-law 50.

 

Sorry, but it does strike me that this is all about the OP wanting to operate locks, and being so impatient to do so that he won't delay doing so until he has been trained as a volunteer.

I think he answered the question quite adequately. He didn’t realise you have a perpetual bee in your bonnet about this. He said the person in charge of the boat remained in charge of the boat. Which is the right answer. Normally, but not always, this would be the person on the tiller but for example if I was as letting someone inexperienced have a go, I would remain in charge of my boat even if I was lockside.

 

And yes he is right about who is in charge of the lock. CRT are. But of course they aren’t normally there and so it falls to the person in charge of the boat. Plenty of locks do of course have a CRT person in charge, big locks on rivers etc. On canal locks where there is a CRT employee eg Bingley 5 rise etc, the CRT employee is in charge of the lock.

 

At no point did he hint that he might be in charge of the lock and surely that is what your bee is mostly about?

[mayalld]

1 minute ago, nicknorman said:

I think he answered the question quite adequately. He didn’t realise you have a perpetual bee in your bonnet about this. He said the person in charge of the boat remained in charge of the boat. Which is the right answer. Normally, but not always, this would be the person on the tiller but for example if I was as letting someone inexperienced have a go, I would remain in charge of my boat even if I was lockside.

 

And yes he is right about who is in charge of the lock. CRT are. But of course they aren’t normally there and so it falls to the person in charge of the boat. Plenty of locks do of course have a CRT person in charge, big locks on rivers etc. On canal locks where there is a CRT employee eg Bingley 5 rise etc, the CRT employee is in charge of the lock.

 

At no point did he hint that he might be in charge of the lock and surely that is what your bee is mostly about?

 

I would disagree.

 

His answer was clear as to who was in charge of the boat, and clear that somebody else was in charge of the lock. He also drew distinctions between who was handling the boat and who was handling the lock.

 

Yes, it is a bee in my bonnet, but I felt that there was a worrying lack of insight there as to the operation of the lock being under the control of the person in charge of the boat, and his claims as to his level of competence and stopping boaters doing the wrong thing implied a view that where he felt he was better at it than the skipper, he might be in charge.

 

Self-appointed, self-taught experts are often not a good thing, and I will decline his help should we meet.

[MtB]

On 03/07/2018 at 10:58, GuyBarry said:

I make sure that the boat's over the cill when it's going down.

 

I sincerely hope this is a typo.