Lack of platforms at locks

[WotEver]

2 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I sincerely hope this is a typo.

I suspect he meant ‘over’ as a synonym for ‘past’. 

[GuyBarry]

6 hours ago, mayalld said:

A lack of understanding that the helmsman is in charge of both boat and lock, and a belief that he has taught himself enough to be competent to work locks for other people without a clear view of who decides what is going to happen is not a good idea.

 

 

I said absolutely clearly that the helmsman remains in charge of the boat.  I also said that the C&RT is in charge of the lock.  That's correct.  A boat entering a lock doesn't have ownership over it.

Edited July 4, 2018 by GuyBarry

[GuyBarry]

6 hours ago, WotEver said:

I suspect he meant ‘over’ as a synonym for ‘past’. 

Yes, I did.  Sorry for any confusion.

[GuyBarry]

6 hours ago, mayalld said:

Self-appointed, self-taught experts are often not a good thing, and I will decline his help should we meet.

You probably don't need it, but are you aware of how many crews who are out there with little or no understanding of how locks work?  I'm there most days and I'm constantly amazed by the basic errors that many people make, especially on hire boats.  You don't need any training to take a hire boat out on the river - I think they just give people a link to a video about how to operate locks.  Most people ignore it as far as I can tell.

 

I've helped all sorts of craft up and down through that lock.  There's been a pedalo that's come up and down a few times and I can't think how they'd have managed it without me.   It's not all narrowboats and motor cruisers.

Edited July 4, 2018 by GuyBarry

[dmr]

20 minutes ago, GuyBarry said:

I said absolutely clearly that the helmsman remains in charge of the boat.  I also said that the C&RT is in charge of the lock.  That's correct.  A boat entering a lock doesn't have ownership over it.

Its all very difficult, if we meet a boat load of hirers who are obviously totally clueless then we will in effect take control of the lock, and even tell the steerer what to do so we are in effect taking control of the boat, our aim is to gentle instruct by demonstrating how to work a lock, rather than taking over (and making sure they don't inconvenience us by sinking)  but we don't have insurance to cover this sort of thing.

 

If the OP knows more than the boaters then his presence is helping the situation.

I will always back down if a boater does not want help, though difficult if you then have to watch it all going wrong.  I think the only real problem is when a lock volunteer knows less than a boater but still tries to be in charge.

If anybody says to me "we'll sort this lock out out, you get back on the boat" then its alarm bells. On the other hand I just sometimes snigle hand and if somebody turns up to work the lock for me I reckon I can tell within seconds if they know what they are doing.

 

...............Dave

[GuyBarry]

7 minutes ago, dmr said:

I think the only real problem is when a lock volunteer knows less than a boater but still tries to be in charge.

Oh god yes and I would never put myself in that situation.  The boaters are in control.  I'll give them guidance if they need it but I'm fully aware that I'm untrained.

 

Unfortunately a lot of them are untrained as well.  That's the problem.  Is it better to let untrained people struggle or give them the benefit of your knowledge?  There's no way I could sit at the side of the lock and watch people making simple mistakes.

[dmr]

16 minutes ago, GuyBarry said:

You probably don't need it, but are you aware of how many crews who are out there with little or no understanding of how locks work?  I'm there most days and I'm constantly amazed by the basic errors that many people make, especially on hire boats.  You don't need any training to take a hire boat out on the river - I think they just give people a link to a video about how to operate locks.  Most people ignore it as far as I can tell.

 

I've helped all sorts of craft up and down through that lock.  There's been a pedalo that's come up and down a few times and I can't think how they'd have managed it without me.   It's not all narrowboats and motor cruisers.

You are not wrong. The hire company should take every boat through at least one lock, especially where rivers are involved, but a few don't. Its not all their fault though, the hirers are excited, its their holiday and they want to get going. A hire company instructor said the attention span is about ten minutes so anything after that and they likely don't absorb it.

I think you should make it clear that you are not "official" but you have seen a lot of lockings and will try to help.  

Quite a few times I have noticed that the children from the group have got it totally sussed but their stubborn and ignorant parents refuse to listen to them, I do really feel for those kids!

 

...............Dave

[ditchcrawler]

7 hours ago, mayalld said:

 

 

Self-appointed, self-taught experts are often not a good thing, and I will decline his help should we meet.

I thought that was most of the experts on here

[nicknorman]

1 hour ago, GuyBarry said:

I said absolutely clearly that the helmsman remains in charge of the boat.  I also said that the C&RT is in charge of the lock.  That's correct.  A boat entering a lock doesn't have ownership over it.

You don’t know Mayalld’s history on here - if you did you’d know he is a bit of a control freak when it comes to boats and locks, he can’t tolerate anyone doing anything to “his” lock. Born out of insecurity, perhaps. Most people aren’t like that, but a few are.

[GuyBarry]

9 hours ago, nicknorman said:

You don’t know Mayalld’s history on here - if you did you’d know he is a bit of a control freak when it comes to boats and locks, he can’t tolerate anyone doing anything to “his” lock. Born out of insecurity, perhaps. Most people aren’t like that, but a few are.

Perhaps Mayalld would like to answer the following question then: when two boats are in a lock together, which of them "owns" it?

[nicknorman]

53 minutes ago, GuyBarry said:

Perhaps Mayalld would like to answer the following question then: when two boats are in a lock together, which of them "owns" it?

He probably doesnt share!

[X Alan W]

Lock ladders, walkways removal/lack of  of gate paddles are all fairly recent features possibly from the end of commercial boating it was always lock gates used to cross, if the lock was too deep to get lock side from cabin top it was a climb up the gates or more often step off in the lock mouth & let the boat work the lock in regard to position etc  The lack of gate paddles seemed to be a case of failed broken not refitted/replaced since the onset of leisure boating became the primary use on non commercial waterways & then the (Elfin Safety) reared it's head & lock ladders safety railings & a few other bits of canal furniture some useful some like removal of gate & other strapping posts not so

[mayalld]

12 hours ago, GuyBarry said:

I said absolutely clearly that the helmsman remains in charge of the boat.  I also said that the C&RT is in charge of the lock.  That's correct.  A boat entering a lock doesn't have ownership over it.

Which rather neatly shows that you don't actually understand the issue.

 

I wanted to know who you thought was in charge of the lock, but you talk about who owns it. You don't perceive that there is a difference between the two.

 

The point that I am making is that whilst CRT own the lock all along, the boater is in charge of the lock whilst his boat is passing through.

 

You have said various things about how you operate a lock, in terms of how fast you wind paddles and making sure that the boat is past the cill. These are all very sensible things that show that you are thinking about what you are doing to an extent, but you are missing the most important consideration, namely that (no matter how happy YOU are that the boat is properly placed in the lock to proceed, or that your speed of winding paddles is correct, it is NOT your view that matters, it is the view of the steerer (or whoever is supervising the steerer).

 

Certainly you can decide not to wind a paddle because you don't think it appropriate, but the converse doesn't apply. The boater has to be happy that you do something. What you think is OK may not be, because you don't actually understand the plan.

 

My preference when descending a lock is to ride the bottom gate, so if you wind the paddles when you have decided that it is safe, you are disrupting what was planned, and I have seen several incidents where a single hander coming up a lock is on the roof of the boat, preparing to come up the ladder with a rope, only to find that some putative helper starts winding paddles.

 

If you enrolled as an official volunteer, they would teach you that (CRTs volunteers are told that they MUST get permission to help, and for everything that they do whilst helping).

 

I must also repeat that (unlike boaters and their crew) you don't have CRT's permission to operate locks, and as such you are committing an offence if you do so (unless a boater invites you to help)

[mayalld]

36 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

He probably doesnt share!

I rarely share, not because I'm antisocial (not that I deny being antisocial), but because I have a 58' boat, and most of my boating is on narrow canals, so I rarely encounter a case where I could share.

 

On my rare encounters with broad locks, I am usually accompanied by the family on their boat and we work together, so the issue of who is in charge is a matter of prior agreement.

 

As to the general question, my view is that whichever boat enters the lock first is in charge. The second boat enters the occupied lock, and accepts that.

 

When we did the Bunbury Shuffle last year, I was in charge because everybody agreed I would be!

 

[nicknorman]

28 minutes ago, mayalld said:

Which rather neatly shows that you don't actually understand the issue.

 

I wanted to know who you thought was in charge of the lock, but you talk about who owns it. You don't perceive that there is a difference between the two.

 

The point that I am making is that whilst CRT own the lock all along, the boater is in charge of the lock whilst his boat is passing through.

 

You have said various things about how you operate a lock, in terms of how fast you wind paddles and making sure that the boat is past the cill. These are all very sensible things that show that you are thinking about what you are doing to an extent, but you are missing the most important consideration, namely that (no matter how happy YOU are that the boat is properly placed in the lock to proceed, or that your speed of winding paddles is correct, it is NOT your view that matters, it is the view of the steerer (or whoever is supervising the steerer).

 

Certainly you can decide not to wind a paddle because you don't think it appropriate, but the converse doesn't apply. The boater has to be happy that you do something. What you think is OK may not be, because you don't actually understand the plan.

 

My preference when descending a lock is to ride the bottom gate, so if you wind the paddles when you have decided that it is safe, you are disrupting what was planned, and I have seen several incidents where a single hander coming up a lock is on the roof of the boat, preparing to come up the ladder with a rope, only to find that some putative helper starts winding paddles.

 

If you enrolled as an official volunteer, they would teach you that (CRTs volunteers are told that they MUST get permission to help, and for everything that they do whilst helping).

 

I must also repeat that (unlike boaters and their crew) you don't have CRT's permission to operate locks, and as such you are committing an offence if you do so (unless a boater invites you to help)

I think you are giving this guy an unduly hard time. He whole tone doesn't strike me as someone who would "take charge" and start doing stuff when the boaters didn't want them to. Conversely there have been plenty of times when official CRT volunteers have done just that, presumably their uniform and training giving them some sense of empowerment. Similarly if you ventured a little further from home you would encounter locks that are controlled by CRT employees and there is no doubt that they are in charge of operating the lock. Obviously one would hope that they take into account what the boaters want but in reality they do their thing, you like it or lump it. Severn locks, Thames locks, Bingley 5 rise, Bratch (sometimes, when there is a CRT employee on duty) and many others. So you are living in a bit of a fantasy land if you think you are always in control of the lock you are in. Well, unless you restrict yourself only to your home patch I suppose. How would you cope in the big bad real world?

[dmr]

Hand signals between the paddle winder and steerer are pretty much essential but very few boaters use them, I note that a few lock volunteers do.

With a roof mounted exhaust verbal communication is difficult without lots of shouting.

There are just a few locks with no line of sight between steerer and paddles so extra care is needed.

We often ride up on the bottom gate so after getting the gates closed the boat needs to be gently reversed back onto the gates, really don't need the paddles opening at that stage. Just sometimes once the boat is all settled in the lock and looking ready Gillie intends to go below to turn kettle on or off etc. again not good if somebody starts to wind the paddles up without noticing. Hand signals are good. Raising a single finger is a fine signal!

 

............Dave

[furnessvale]

28 minutes ago, mayalld said:

When we did the Bunbury Shuffle last year, I was in charge because everybody agreed I would be!

 

It's easier that way, Dave! ?

 

George

[alan_fincher]

6 minutes ago, mayalld said:

As to the general question, my view is that whichever boat enters the lock first is in charge. The second boat enters the occupied lock, and accepts that.

 

That seems a very odd view to me!

 

Unlike you, I spend perhaps the greater part of my time using broad rather than narrow locks.

 

OK, unusually this year, I don't think I have ever not shared one, but both boats in them have been my own, so the issue has not arisen.

 

However when sharing with a boat that is not mine, it is totally random whether I'm the first one in the lock or the second.  If I have just caught a boat up, I  have no idea of the skills or experience of the crew taking the boat in first.  I certainly would not assume they are "in charge" ot accept that I have to live with whatever they do as being at my own risk because I "chose" to enter the same lock.

 

It's not supposed to be a "choice! anyway is it?  You are requested to share locks whenever possible to minimise water use.

 

No I don't have an answer as to who is in overall charge.  If I am sharing with someone very cautious, I will go along with their cautiousness, and only start any objection if I see something that could be dangerous, (e.g. boat tied to bollard in emptying lock, boat over cill, tyre fenders using up lots of available width in lock).  If I find a like minded person who is keen to do it quickly and efficiently, (no over cautious paddle opening, for example), I'm happier, but I'll never force anybody to work fast unless that's their choice.

 

I suspect that  if I did follow you into a broad lock, we would actually get along fine, and work it efficiently and safely.  I would not however expect you to tell me what I could or or could not do simply because you went in first.  To be clear though, no paddle would get wound without your approval.

I would hope that the person starting this post always sought approval for his actions though.  Would he for example know that if we are working our two boats breasted together through a flight, (one 72 feet, one 40, and with back ends tied in line), paddles get opened in this order.

 

Uphill

 

Gate paddles on side of shorter boat

Ground paddleson side of shorter boat

Ground paddle on side of longer boat

Gate paddles on side of longer boat.

 

(Because this is how they get banged around least, and water is not going to flood front deck of longer boat)

 

Downhill

 

Paddle on side of longer boat

Paddle on side of shorter boat

 

(Because front of longer boat rests against bottom gate, and boats will drift back if paddle not drawn that side first)

 

I'll wager most people reading this, (boat owner or just keen helper), would not choose those orders, but experience tells us that is what works best and is safest.  That's why I would always prefer that people ask, when it is our two boats in the lock.

 

Note CRT volunteers regularly don't ask, and operate paddles in an order we would prefer they did not - part of the issue I have with this.  THe best ones say "how do you want to do it", and we tell them, and are grateful for their help.  No third party should intervene without asking, even if it is Richard Parry, (and we have been worked though locks by Richard).

 

[nicknorman]

34 minutes ago, mayalld said:

I rarely share, not because I'm antisocial (not that I deny being antisocial), but because I have a 58' boat, and most of my boating is on narrow canals, so I rarely encounter a case where I could share.

 

On my rare encounters with broad locks, I am usually accompanied by the family on their boat and we work together, so the issue of who is in charge is a matter of prior agreement.

 

As to the general question, my view is that whichever boat enters the lock first is in charge. The second boat enters the occupied lock, and accepts that.

 

When we did the Bunbury Shuffle last year, I was in charge because everybody agreed I would be!

 

We just get on with it, we don't spend hours arguing about who is in charge and refusing to enter a lock unless we can be in charge. Nobody needs to be in charge if people know what they are doing and accept that anyone can shout "stop" etc. In my (45 years of) experience most people are like us, very few are like you.

 

You attitude reminds me of aviation of old whereby the captain was in charge and everybody else had to follow his orders without question right up to the point they smashed into the ground. Once you create the "I am in charge" ethos you disempower other people from pointing things out that are going wrong. Despite what you think, history has shown it is not a safe way to carry on.

Edited July 5, 2018 by nicknorman

[dmr]

I think just once in almost ten years of full time boating have we reversed out of a lock because we were unable to co-operate with the boat we were sharing with. Sharing locks just works and is usually a very enjoyable part of boating.

 

............Dave

[nicknorman]

3 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

I would hope that the person starting this post always sought approval for his actions though.  Would he for example know that if we are working our two boats breasted together through a flight, (one 72 feet, one 40, and with back ends tied in line), paddles get opened in this order.

 

Uphill

 

Gate paddles on side of shorter boat

Ground paddleson side of shorter boat

Ground paddle on side of longer boat

Gate paddles on side of longer boat.

 

(Because this is how they get banged around least, and water is not going to flood front deck of longer boat)

 

Downhill

 

Paddle on side of longer boat

Paddle on side of shorter boat

 

(Because front of longer boat rests against bottom gate, and boats will drift back if paddle not drawn that side first)

 

I'll wager most people reading this, (boat owner or just keen helper), would not choose those orders, but experience tells us that is what works best and is safest.  That's why I would always prefer that people ask, when it is our two boats in the lock.

 

Out of interest why not tie the boats bows in line? Just wondering, as I've never taken two boats of such dissimilar lengths through wide locks tied together. When we share with longer or shorter boats (not tied together) I generally try to keep the bows in line, rather than the sterns, to avoid the bow of one boat going diagonal.

 

As to you sequence, obviously you do this on the locks you are familiar with, presumably mostly the GU. But there are locks around with different arrangements and different flows. The technique we normally use on wide locks didn't really work on many of the KandA locks because they seem to have different flows for some reason. So my point is that if you arrived at an unfamiliar lock, it could be that someone else eg a Volocky, has a better understanding of how that lock works, than you do.

5 minutes ago, dmr said:

I think just once in almost ten years of full time boating have we reversed out of a lock because we were unable to co-operate with the boat we were sharing with. Sharing locks just works and is usually a very enjoyable part of boating.

 

............Dave

Was it Dave Mayall by any chance?

[bizzard]

1 hour ago, nicknorman said:

We just get on with it, we don't spend hours arguing about who is in charge and refusing to enter a lock unless we can be in charge. Nobody needs to be in charge if people know what they are doing and accept that anyone can shout "stop" etc. In my (45 years of) experience most people are like us, very few are like you.

 

You attitude reminds me of aviation of old whereby the captain was in charge and everybody else had to follow his orders without question right up to the point they smashed into the ground. Once you create the "I am in charge" ethos you disempower other people from pointing things out that are going wrong. Despite what you think, history has shown it is not a safe way to carry on.

As per the South Korean 747 cargo plane that crashed a couple of minutes after take off from Stansted a few years ago, very near me!! Apparently the captains artificial horizon was reading incorrectly, ''level'', whilst the co-pilots and flight engineers gauges were reading correctly ''banking left!!!'', but they were too frightened to even mention it to him never mind over rule him and then it was too late.

Edited July 5, 2018 by bizzard

[alan_fincher]

24 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Out of interest why not tie the boats bows in line? Just wondering, as I've never taken two boats of such dissimilar lengths through wide locks tied together. When we share with longer or shorter boats (not tied together) I generally try to keep the bows in line, rather than the sterns, to avoid the bow of one boat going diagonal.

Well with two boats of highly dissimilar length if you tie the front ends in line, the back end of the shorter boat will be a long way forward from the back end of the longer one.  This rules out using the shorter boat as the tug, because if you try to steer towards the side the longer boat is on, the wash from the prop of the shorter boat is aimed at the side of the longer one, and much of your available propulsion and steering is lost.

 

Not so much of an issue now we have sorted the longer boat out enough to do the pulling, but certainly not viable for Sickle towing Flamingo.

 

However I also find it very much easier to get into double locks, if I only have to put 7 feet of width in in the first place.  I can afford to be not fully to the side, nor even dead straight in line with the lock as the first bow enters, and still have 30 feet of forward travel to ensure the second boat goes in as I want.

 

Finally, having both back ends tied together gives me the steerer a continuous route for easily crossing the back of both boats, so in a dull lock, I can easily cross to the side of the unpowered boat, if I need to operate gates or paddles on that side.

 

A no brainer really - I had not realised there were so many reasons why it is best!

 

Doing it the other way has no merits I can see at all in our case, and would lose all the benefits I have listed.

[alan_fincher]

36 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

So my point is that if you arrived at an unfamiliar lock, it could be that someone else eg a Volocky, has a better understanding of how that lock works, than you do.

It is possible, but only a relatively small number of volunteer lock keepers seem to really understand that when the boat in the lock is just about literally the longest that lock can accommodate that you can't do what they might try to recommend for everybody.  "Keep well away from both gates" is clearly not a possibility, and it is more or less a given that the front end has to be touching the gates (or cill) at that end of the lock as much as possible through the whole operation, (and generally with no front fender deployed).  This goes beyond the experience of many of them, so you have to tell them how you intend to do it, and why - some are not happy, even if you explain nothing else is possible!

 

I'm always prepared to listen to people who have experience of the quirks at any particular lock though.  I recall that even having worked our way all the way up the Lee through all manner of differnt lock, (both powered and unpowered), that nothing quite prepared us for Harlow.  It's one of the few locks I've fallen foul of where the warnings on the gates about paddle use actually needs to be complied with.

[Horace42]

All this talk of 'who is in charge' needs to be matched to 'who is responsible'.