Lack of platforms at locks

[RLWP]

7 hours ago, nicknorman said:

We always wind both paddles fully up on the Cheshire locks (by which I mean one after the other in the time it takes to cross the gate). Why is it we are able to get on with it, using full paddle, whilst you dawdle, only capable of coping with 1/2 paddle? I would recommend some additional training in boat handling in locks, so you become competent to use the paddles as they were intended.

We also draw paddles quickly, I like efficient lock working

[furnessvale]

1 minute ago, RLWP said:

We also draw paddles quickly, I like efficient lock working

IMO, anything built by Brindley needs to be handled cautiously (paddle raising I mean).

 

That is not t say half paddles until the lock is half full etc, but keeping a careful eye until both paddles are up.

 

On narrow canals the worst I have found are Wardle on the New Cut (now sorted), and 65 and 66 on the T & M.  Fully raising both on 65 as fast as possible, even with a full length boat, can result in a surge that will send the Gloster lamp flying (I know!).

 

Incidentally, I have found that a 35ft boat can sit in the back of a Brindley lock going uphill in perfect safety.  Sit on the front gate and you will be propelled back and then surge forward with a bang.

 

George

[RLWP]

2 minutes ago, furnessvale said:

IMO, anything built by Brindley needs to be handled cautiously (paddle raising I mean).

 

That is not t say half paddles until the lock is half full etc, but keeping a careful eye until both paddles are up.

 

Indeed. We may raise paddles quickly, we are always watching the boat to see what's going on. We are also very aware of what she is likely to do in a lock, which is going to be quite different to your 35' boat.

 

Which I think is your point. Cautious half paddling is a good way to handle a boat you don't know. If it's your boat you will (or should be) aware of what it will do in a lock, meaning you adapt your technique.

 

Richard

[nicknorman]

4 minutes ago, furnessvale said:

 

 

Incidentally, I have found that a 35ft boat can sit in the back of a Brindley lock going uphill in perfect safety.  Sit on the front gate and you will be propelled back and then surge forward with a bang.

 

George

Our boat is 59’ and we sit very near the back of such locks. Far enough in front of the bottom gate so the boat doesn’t quite bump the bottom gate with the initial surge, but remaining well back in the lock to limit the forward pull. As soon as the nose pitches down, and before the boat want to start going forward, reverse is engaged. Provided the boat is kept near the back, only just above idle in reverse is needed. I guess it might be tricky with a longer boat that sits further into the “suction zone”. But then again a full length boat hasn’t got any space to build up any speed.

[furnessvale]

3 minutes ago, RLWP said:

 

Indeed. We may raise paddles quickly, we are always watching the boat to see what's going on. We are also very aware of what she is likely to do in a lock, which is going to be quite different to your 35' boat.

 

Richard

I did have a 35ft tug for a while but I couldn't live with its twitchyness.

 

I am now back full length......much easier to steer!

 

George

[RLWP]

1 minute ago, nicknorman said:

reverse is engaged. 

 

I hate having to do that. Quite often on our local locks the boat will settle quite happily without using the engine. I recently shared some of the GU locks with another boat and had to do the same as them (use reverse to hang back) as if we didn't, our boat would sit on the top gate, then swing into the centre getting the bow fender under the beam. If the other boat had also rested on the top gate, both boats would have stayed straight

 

Richard

[nicknorman]

6 minutes ago, RLWP said:

 

I hate having to do that. Quite often on our local locks the boat will settle quite happily without using the engine. I recently shared some of the GU locks with another boat and had to do the same as them (use reverse to hang back) as if we didn't, our boat would sit on the top gate, then swing into the centre getting the bow fender under the beam. If the other boat had also rested on the top gate, both boats would have stayed straight

 

Richard

It depends on the locks - we were talking about the T&M ones. On the “modern” GU locks eg Hatton, I try to keep our bow roughly aligned with the other boat to avoid the whole diagonal thing. Which is why I was surprised (in the other thread) that Alan Fincher likes to tie his dissimilar length boats together aligned at the stern. 

 

There is much less tendency for the boat to move forward or backward in such locks, compared to T&M. It is just a matter of using the appropriate technique for the particular lock, not something I really think about, just do it!

 

On the T&M locks if you ride the top gate then open the paddles rapidly, the boat surges back initially, and then crashes back into the gate. People that insist on doing this in mid- and shorter length boats just go more slowly because firstly they take time to nudge up to the gate before paddles can be opened, and secondly they have to open the paddles slowly to avoid being pushed back in the surge. Inefficient and creating unnecessary work. But you see it quite a lot.

Edited July 7, 2018 by nicknorman

[RLWP]

1 minute ago, nicknorman said:

It depends on the locks

Yes, and my local locks that I don't share are BCN, Stratford, Coventry and Oxford ones. Very quick they are too

 

As you say, it's hard to say what the appropriate technique is, you just do it!

 

Richard

[nicknorman]

4 minutes ago, RLWP said:

Yes, and my local locks that I don't share are BCN, Stratford, Coventry and Oxford ones. Very quick they are too

 

As you say, it's hard to say what the appropriate technique is, you just do it!

 

Richard

Yes all those locks are pussycats and can have the paddles whacked straight up without a care. I don’t know how often you venture onto the T&M but those do have a much more powerful forward suction. You can still whack the paddles up but you have to be more careful where the boat is.

Edited July 7, 2018 by nicknorman

[RLWP]

1 minute ago, nicknorman said:

I don’t know how often you venture onto the T&M but those do have a much more powerful forward suction

Rarely, something to do with having to work for a living

 

I'm wondering what the OP is making of this discussion?

 

Richard

[nicknorman]

Just now, RLWP said:

Rarely, something to do with having to work for a living

 

I'm wondering what the OP is making of this discussion?

 

Richard

Haven’t you retired yet!

 

Probably found a new hobby where he doesn’t risk being sued, losing his home and having his family sold into slavery. Knitting perhaps? Or maybe not, knitting needles are very dangerous and if one were to sneeze whilst knitting, it is possible that a needle could take someone‘s eye out. Think of the court case that could result!

[RLWP]

1 minute ago, nicknorman said:

Haven’t you retired yet!

 

Probably found a new hobby where he doesn’t risk being sued, losing his home and having his family sold into slavery. Knitting perhaps? Or maybe not, knitting needles are very dangerous and if one were to sneeze whilst knitting, it is possible that a needle could take someone‘s eye out. Think of the court case that could result!

I'm hoping that he is understanding that he is volunteering to be the willing servant of the boat crew, ready to follow whatever they want him to do. 

 

Richard

[nicknorman]

15 minutes ago, RLWP said:

I'm hoping that he is understanding that he is volunteering to be the willing servant of the boat crew, ready to follow whatever they want him to do. 

 

Richard

I think that was his position right from the start.

[alan_fincher]

55 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Our boat is 59’ and we sit very near the back of such locks. Far enough in front of the bottom gate so the boat doesn’t quite bump the bottom gate with the initial surge, but remaining well back in the lock to limit the forward pull. As soon as the nose pitches down, and before the boat want to start going forward, reverse is engaged. Provided the boat is kept near the back, only just above idle in reverse is needed. I guess it might be tricky with a longer boat that sits further into the “suction zone”. But then again a full length boat hasn’t got any space to build up any speed.

As we operate, the norm would be to always let the front of a full length boat actually rest on the bottom gate.  It simply can't draw forward at all, if it isn't given the opportunity to.

 

In normal operations there are only two situations in which we would ever being engaging reverse in a lock , whether going uphill or downhill....

 

1) To stop the boat on entry

2) To reverse off bottom gates if the boat has nor drifted back enough once the lock has made a level, to allow the bottom gate(s) to be opened.

 

Much of the time if the boat is left just resting against bottom gates as the lock empties, (no gear engaged), it will drift back enough as a level is made to allow the gates to be opened without the boat needing to move back further.  In my experience the times it is least likely to do this, is when nobody is on the boat to use reverse if it is necessary, (and particularly in cases where the lock ladder is really badly placed for getting to and from the tiller!)

[GuyBarry]

36 minutes ago, RLWP said:

I'm hoping that he is understanding that he is volunteering to be the willing servant of the boat crew, ready to follow whatever they want him to do. 

 

 

I worked that out a very long time ago, thanks very much!

 

The problem is though, what happens when they ask me to do something that I know is completely stupid?  Am I obliged to follow their instructions even when I know it might put the boat in danger?

[alan_fincher]

55 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

It depends on the locks - we were talking about the T&M ones. On the “modern” GU locks eg Hatton, I try to keep our bow roughly aligned with the other boat to avoid the whole diagonal thing. Which is why I was surprised (in the other thread) that Alan Fincher likes to tie his dissimilar length boats together aligned at the stern.

If the boats are tightly tied together, whether with fronts in line, or backs in line, they really can't go that diagonal on a GU lock.

There is approaching 40 feet of the length that exceeds 14 feet in width, and unless the lock is a very over-wide one, simple trigonometry dictates just how far from parallel to the lock sides they can get at any point.

 

But what's the issue if they do go a bit diagonal?  They still fit the lock.

[furnessvale]

On 05/07/2018 at 11:45, alan_fincher said:

How did you get on with using "Sandbach" as a tug, if breasted with a full length boat that could not be powered?  Even "Sickle", (quite a bit longer), tends to take both boats along far too "crap style" for it to be a lot of fun - hence why I now nearly always use "Flamingo" as the tug.

When breasted to an empty butty the propwash goes under the butty so no problem.

 

Loaded or deeper boat I found I had to use less tiller when pointing the wash towards the towed boat to avoid reflected wash, but still doable.

 

I much preferred bows together as once the bows are in the lock entrance you can wriggle the rest in if needed.

 

George

[alan_fincher]

2 minutes ago, GuyBarry said:

I worked that out a very long time ago, thanks very much!

 

The problem is though, what happens when they ask me to do something that I know is completely stupid?  Am I obliged to follow their instructions even when I know it might put the boat in danger?

No, of course not.

 

But if they ask you to move out of the way, so they can do that stupid thing, (or at least thing that you consider to be stupid) themselves, that is their prerogative, and you have no right to stop them doing it.

 

You probably have no idea how many people, including volunteer lock keepers tell us we should never be opening top gate paddles before top ground paddles, but if you are ever there when we are working the boats through as a pair, I will explain exactly why we do what we want to do.

 

If anybody, including a volunteer or an actual CRT employee wishes to dictate to me the order I wind paddles, when only my boats are in the lock, I will object.  If they are happy to listen to my instructions about what to wind and when, I'm very happy to have them help.

 

If they have some formulaic rule in their head that says "this is always right, and the is always wrong", it simply means they do not have the experience to dictate to me how to do what I spend a large of my boating time actually doing without problems.

[MtB]

7 minutes ago, GuyBarry said:

I worked that out a very long time ago, thanks very much!

 

The problem is though, what happens when they ask me to do something that I know is completely stupid?  Am I obliged to follow their instructions even when I know it might put the boat in danger?

 

No you're not obliged to follow their instructions. You have the option to courteously say something like "Oh I really don't think that is a good idea, I'll let you do that yourselves and bow out gracefully". But find your own words for this. 

 

This is a bit like when someone of unknown ability wants to help me single hand and tells me to stay on the boat. I sometimes manage to decline their help courteously, other times I rather mess it up and they take umbrage. 

 

Helping at locks is a 'people skill' as well as a boating skill.

[Ray T]

5 hours ago, alan_fincher said:

 

 

You probably have no idea how many people, including volunteer lock keepers tell us we should never be opening top gate paddles before top ground paddles, but if you are ever there when we are working the boats through as a pair, I will explain exactly why we do what we want to do.

 

 

 

Shown this picture before. The gate paddles have been opened before the ground paddle and the bottom gates are not yet shut.

Prop wash also used in assisting closing one of the bottom gates as well as keeping the bows against the top gates.

 

Today's volockies would possibly have apoplexy if they witnessed this scene today.

ETA, They'd certainly be told where to go! 

 

 

Picture from CRT Archive:http://collections.canalrivertrust.org.uk/bw200.1.40.4

Edited July 7, 2018 by Ray T

[dogless]

This thread is amazing.

The locks were designed for an illiterate  and uneducated workforce and have continued working to their simple principles for two hundred years or more.

Yet, let modern sophisticated, educated man loose on them, and suddenly there are pages of rules and alarming consequences.

"I'm in charge....don't panic Mr Mainwaring"

Rog

 

[RLWP]

3 minutes ago, dogless said:

The locks were designed for an illiterate  and uneducated workforce

 

Illiterate and uneducated does not mean stupid or thoughtless.

[dogless]

Absolutely. 

It perhaps also guarded against an inflated view of one's own importance (as beautifully illustrated by Ray''s photo).

Rog

Edited July 7, 2018 by dogless

[Ray T]

On 07/07/2018 at 12:08, RLWP said:

Illiterate and uneducated does not mean stupid or thoughtless.

Rog, I disagree with your comment - "The locks were designed for an illiterate  and uneducated workforce."

 

The boat people worked the locks for efficiency as "time was money."

 

The retired narrowboat captain I visit cannot read, never had the opportunity to learn because of business demands at the time. 

He has life skills that most today will never master - he is far from stupid or thoughtless.

Also the boat people received some dreadful treatment by so called "civilised" people off the bank.

 

Edited July 8, 2018 by Ray T

[dogless]

That''s the point I was clumsily making.

Despite their lack of education the locks were speedily dealt with.

Perhaps education creates this overblown reaction, and over thinking. 

Everything in life has dangers.

Rog