Boat for sale without original paperwork....

[Guest]

I've just noticed a newly listed boat for what seems like a reasonable price on what I've come to believe on this forum is a reputable broker. Reading through the information the reason for the low price is given as:

 

"There are some grey areas however. The boat does not have any of the original paperwork and the owners do not know, for example, the steel thicknesses. Because of this, the price has been set at a low level of £30,000, where if all this was in place the true value would probably be in excess of £40,000."

 

It states the current owners have had the boat from new, so I wonder whether this would mean they also don't have the original documents to prove they even own the boat.

 

Just a general question then... would this set off the alarm bells for you folks to not touch it with the proverbial barge pole?

 

 

[AndrewIC]

There are no documents that "prove" anyone owns a boat. There may be a pile of evidence, receipts for moorings, insurance policies, repair work etc, and a wise owner will have amassed these over time. And a survey will tell you what the steel is like now, which is what matters, not what it was at some point in the past.

[Idunhoe]

My alarm bell would be this...the broker will be fully aware of the facts highlighted in AndrewIC's post so why have they thought to mention it. Methinks there is more to this than is being told.

[Tiggs]

"Because of this, the price has been set at a low level of £30,000, where if all this was in place the true value would probably be in excess of £40,000"

 

​Sounds like advertising BS to me.

 

If you want the boat, get it surveyed and see what evidence there is that they have of ownership as suggested by Andrew.

 

(Actually a receipt from the builder would be evidence of ownership)

Edited April 5, 2016 by Tiggs

[Guest]

Thanks for the quick responses. After reading more information in the brochure I've found it doesn't have central heating, so not ideal as I will be living aboard. I can't see a multi-fuel stove at the far end managing to heat a 62ft boat very well.

[Alan de Enfield]

There are no documents that "prove" anyone owns a boat................

 

True for many inland waterway boats - not true for the majority of boats.

Proof of VAT paid is another important document but is, again, not normally found on inland waterway boats listed as being for sale.

 

On non-inland waterways boats, 'Ships Documents' are very important (as important as your own passport) and should be kept safely and presented to any official requesting them.

 

I can never understand why Inland waterways boat owners cannot see the benefits of such documents.

[Tiggs]

I can't see a multi-fuel stove at the far end managing to heat a 62ft boat very well.

Neither can I.

[b0atman]

Thanks for the quick responses. After reading more information in the brochure I've found it doesn't have central heating, so not ideal as I will be living aboard. I can't see a multi-fuel stove at the far end managing to heat a 62ft boat very well.

They do though I have just disconnected the radiators and the temp at back bedroom is 1/2 degree cooler than saloon.

[RufusR]

we have a squrrel multi fuel on a 60 foot boat and admitedly it is central as opposed to at end but it heats the boat full length pretty well we hardly use the wabasto heating except for the odd cold morning or to heat boat when home from work while the stove wakes up . we could probably live without the central heating but we couldnt live through the winter without the stove thats for sure

[Bee]

As long as they really do own it and it gets a reasonable survey I would not worry too much. If they have owned it from new they should have a pretty good idea who built it and when and out of what, if they are unconvincing then that can't be right. Check with the builder if he still exists, if not then post a pic. on here and plenty of folks will recognise the style - or if its homemade, in which case it could be a horror. As far as the £30k and not £40k goes - nonsense. Stove with backboiler and rads? not too difficult to install.

[Guest]

I'll post a link so you can all have a pick at it and tell me if it would be a huge mistake to even consider such a thing!

 

The brochure says Shell Builder and Fit-out is by Wulfrun Fabrications... of which I can't really find anything on Google. A search of the narrow boat database (assuming I have found the correct boat of course) says the builder is Stuart Cole. Again I can't find much about said fellow with a quick Google search.

 

Any tips or insights greatly appreciated!

 

http://rugbyboats.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/1459.pdf

[RLWP]

"There are some grey areas however. The boat does not have any of the original paperwork and the owners do not know, for example, the steel thicknesses. Because of this, the price has been set at a low level of £30,000, where if all this was in place the true value would probably be in excess of £40,000."

 

It states the current owners have had the boat from new, so I wonder whether this would mean they also don't have the original documents to prove they even own the boat.

 

Just a general question then... would this set off the alarm bells for you folks to not touch it with the proverbial barge pole?

 

 

 

I would read the discounted price as relating more to the unknown hull thickness than the paperwork

 

Richard

[peterboat]

I have all the bills and receipt for the boat from new. Also I have a document from the original company that financed the boat selling me the boat. plus I have all the bills from then to now for the boat as well, pretty good evidence that I own the boat! Equally I had similar stuff for my old boat, most sensible owners have this sort of stuff for their boat.

[Delta9]

Even if they have no paperwork or bills you can contact CRT and ask them for written confirmation that you have been licencing the boat however long you've owned it. Insurance companies will provide similar "proof".

[zenataomm]

If you were seriously interested ..... irrespective of price/grey areas/horrendous cushions or whatever, you'd get it surveyed before deciding so ....

Just get it surveyed and then decide with an informed view.

[Claude]

 

True for many inland waterway boats - not true for the majority of boats.

Proof of VAT paid is another important document but is, again, not normally found on inland waterway boats listed as being for sale.

 

On non-inland waterways boats, 'Ships Documents' are very important (as important as your own passport) and should be kept safely and presented to any official requesting them.

 

I can never understand why Inland waterways boat owners cannot see the benefits of such documents.

 

I think most do don't they?

[David Mack]

You're dealing with one of the more reputable brokers here, so I wouldn't worry too much. Some other brokers might be more inclined to gloss over the lack of information, rather than be open as here.

 

From a quick look at the brochure that looks to be quite a lot of boat for the money.

[BruceinSanity]

I'd be less worried about the lack of central heating than the need to run the engine to get hot water.

[Laurie Booth]

I don't understand why the owner of the boat doesn't have the hull surveyed. I would if it adds £10k to the value of the boat.

Looks like a good boat to me.

I'd be less worried about the lack of central heating than the need to run the engine to get hot water.

Why does running the engine to get hot water worry you?

[alan_fincher]

So far as I can see the Canalplan boat listing has only one boat built by Wulfran fabrications, and unless that is a re-registration, this boat is not it.....

 

Charlie Girl Built by Wulfrun Fabrications - Length : 18.89 metres ( 62 feet ) - Beam : 2.13 metres ( 7 feet ) - Draft : 0.01 metres ( 0 feet ). Metal hull N/A power of 43 HP. Registered with Canal & River Trust number 513445 as a Powered Motor Boat. ( Last updated on Wednesday 22nd May 2013 )

Sade, on the other hand is shown as built by Stuart Cole

 

Sade Built by Stuart Cole - Length : 18.9 metres ( 62 feet ) - Beam : 2.08 metres ( 6 feet 10 inches ) - Draft : 0.68 metres ( 2 feet 3 inches ). Metal hull N/A power of 35 HP. Registered with Canal & River Trust number 507444 as a Powered Motor Boat. ( Last updated on Wednesday 22nd May 2013 )

But if you search for Stuart Cole, he has built or fitted no other boats.

So I think you are dealing with a build that is a "one off" rather than anything to do with an established narrow boat builder.

Googling "Woolfrun fabrications" produces a lot of his, but nothing I could see that relates to canal boat building.

I can't really say why all this troubles me, but it does!

 

How can someone own a boat from new, and not be able to produce any paperwork relating to the original build?

[dor]

 

 

How can someone own a boat from new, and not be able to produce any paperwork relating to the original build?

When I was involved with selling boats I had more than one that caused a lot of grief both for the brokerage and for the person trying to buy the boat. The usual reason was that a couple had split up and one half of the former partnership was trying to sell the boat without the knowledge or agreement of the other half.

 

ETA: And of course, having lots of paperwork still wouldn't help if the boat had been jointly owned ond the seller happened to have the paperwork.

Edited April 6, 2016 by dor

[Timx]

My alarm bell would be this...the broker will be fully aware of the facts highlighted in AndrewIC's post so why have they thought to mention it. Methinks there is more to this than is being told.

I agree with this.

[Ally]

A reputable builder would have issued a "Freedom of lien" and will hold acopy, to show the current owners bought the boat out right

 

One of our customers had lost his, we were able to duplicate it for him at the point of sale

Edited April 6, 2016 by Ally

[MtB]

I've just noticed a newly listed boat for what seems like a reasonable price on what I've come to believe on this forum is a reputable broker. Reading through the information the reason for the low price is given as:

 

"There are some grey areas however. The boat does not have any of the original paperwork and the owners do not know, for example, the steel thicknesses. Because of this, the price has been set at a low level of £30,000, where if all this was in place the true value would probably be in excess of £40,000."

 

It states the current owners have had the boat from new, so I wonder whether this would mean they also don't have the original documents to prove they even own the boat.

 

Just a general question then... would this set off the alarm bells for you folks to not touch it with the proverbial barge pole?

 

 

 

Yes it sets off alarm bells for me.

 

Thing is, Dom probably has no more idea if the seller genuinely owns it than you or I. But the risk lies with you, not with Rugby Boats. If you stump up the £30k and in a year the cops turn up and take the boat back, it's hard cheese as Molesworth might say. You lose, not Dom. There'll be no comeback on the broker unless they happen to be offering a specific title guarantee, which would be daft for them to do.

 

On the other hand someone who has stolen a boat is unlikely to place it with a reputable broker to flog, so that's an indicator in favour of it being a genuine sale. BUT, they could be double-bluffing. Oh-oh....

 

Bottom line is if you are happy with taking the (small) risk and can afford to lose the £30k if it fails to come off, then great, go for it. OTOH if it would blow your world apart to lose the boat should it turn out to be hooky, then run a mile.

Edited April 6, 2016 by Mike the Boilerman

[patty-ann]

If its the Stuart Cole I know he has fitted out boats..he did "Patty Ann"..he's a lovely man who I have found to be genuine. I know some of his history and he no longer fits out boats but does lined sail aways....he doesn't do internet.

Interior of "Patty Ann" is beautiful and I visited many times during the time he worked on her...he taught me most of what I know about my boat.