With the recent drownings. Safety ladders why not?

[bigcol]

I've copied this from another post, with the recent drownings and folks falling in, why is a safety ladder

Not common practice.

Proberly a stupid question, why is it narrow boats don't have boarding ladders made as when built

and after market stuff designed and made for retro fitting??

 

On narrow boats, there sometimes a step shape on the stern, but why isn't this extended or and folded.

Blue water boats have boarding ladders than some don't go down deep enough, but on canal boats there's nothing? Why nothing??

All the safety stuff for BSS, but no safety ladder

 

What about welding steps on the rudder at the bottom? And handles/dolly/cleat shaped to a large handle

I'm talking steps that be confatably used by most people

Just seems sad that there are accidents, but if all boats had these ladders then crew or public when needed could be used.

 

george94, on 27 Dec 2015

 

It's a very good point. One of the biggest causes of death on the canals, so I believe, is lone boaters falling in after a night in the pub, and not being able to get out.

 

It's not impossible that scrapping the BSS and simply requiring steps at the stern would result in a net reduction of mortalities.

 

Food for thought.

Edited December 27, 2015 by bigcol

[Neil Smith]

Some builders do put steps on the rudder but I have wondered why not all as its cheap to do at build stage.

 

Neil

[BEngo]

The RCD requires some method of getting a person out of the water, In my case that is a footstep in the rudder. Other boats have a step on the counter.

 

Boarding ladders are available to retrofit, but they are not always lock-proof nor can they always be positioned so as to be clear of the rudder arc.

 

Even if one is fitted, how do you guarantee someone will only fall in at the right (ladder) end of a narrow lock?

 

N

[valrene9600]

Don't hold your breath waiting for BSS to make it part of test. They are not bothered about boaters inside the boat dying from co2 or smoke. No alarms required so dont expect them to care about a boater outside the boat.

Edited December 27, 2015 by valrene9600

[johnnie1uk]

Id have thought steps on the rudder would make great debris snags.

[W+T]

Id have thought steps on the rudder would make great debris snags.

 

 

Be easy to get burning gear to cut out a foot slot in a rudder though if the boat is in dry dock.

 

Bit difficult when boating alone but if you are with some body else a small folding ladder will do the trick, or rope ladder to hook over.

 

Depends on folk if they think they want one for better safety. like seat belts in a car, its not always needed until it is then it is dam well needed.

[blackrose]

It's easy enough to attach a ladder to one's boat that goes down into the water (when moored) if one is so inclined. If it were obligatory imagine the people on here who would be up in arms about it...

[bizzard]

Everyone should have a Polaris missile and a parachute strapped to their back at all times. The missile actuates on contact with water and shhhhoots you back out again, vertically, fast!! quick time up into the sky and then into a shallow tragectory when its fuel is exhausted, at which point the parachute deploys, 'flap flap flap' and brings you wafting down gently on the summer breeze back to earth, 157 miles away from your boat. But you will have survived.

Warning== Water actuated Polaris missiles should not be worn in the rain, nor should they be armed with a warhead.

[Sea Dog]

Everyone should have a Polaris missile and a parachute strapped to their back at all times. The missile actuates on contact with water and shhhhoots you back out again, vertically, fast!! quick time up into the sky and then into a shallow tragectory when its fuel is exhausted, at which point the parachute deploys, 'flap flap flap' and brings you wafting down gently on the summer breeze back to earth, 157 miles away from your boat. But you will have survived.

Warning== Water actuated Polaris missiles should not be worn in the rain, nor should they be armed with a warhead.

 

Well, your idea has potential and you've advised on some of the risks involved, but I can't help thinking its unnecessarily complex and expensive.

 

How's about a simple trap door in the baseplate so one can simply climb back into the boat from below? There are some issues to be dealt with, I'll grant, like it must lead into the galley to avoid muddy footprints spoiling the carpet and it can't be bolted from the inside or you could be locked out. Otherwise, its mainly a straightforward welding job.

[Flyboy]

I've copied this from another post, with the recent drownings and folks falling in, why is a safety ladder

Not common practice.

Proberly a stupid question, why is it narrow boats don't have boarding ladders made as when built

and after market stuff designed and made for retro fitting??

 

On narrow boats, there sometimes a step shape on the stern, but why isn't this extended or and folded.

Blue water boats have boarding ladders than some don't go down deep enough, but on canal boats there's nothing? Why nothing??

All the safety stuff for BSS, but no safety ladder

 

What about welding steps on the rudder at the bottom? And handles/dolly/cleat shaped to a large handle

I'm talking steps that be confatably used by most people

Just seems sad that there are accidents, but if all boats had these ladders then crew or public when needed could be used.

 

george94, on 27 Dec 2015

 

It's a very good point. One of the biggest causes of death on the canals, so I believe, is lone boaters falling in after a night in the pub, and not being able to get out.

 

It's not impossible that scrapping the BSS and simply requiring steps at the stern would result in a net reduction of mortalities.

 

Food for thought.

So how many recent drownings have there been recently?

[W+T]

So how many recent drownings have there been recently?

 

on a serious note, one is to many for the sake of about £50

Edited December 27, 2015 by W+T

[Wanderer Vagabond]

 

 

Be easy to get burning gear to cut out a foot slot in a rudder though if the boat is in dry dock.

 

Bit difficult when boating alone but if you are with some body else a small folding ladder will do the trick, or rope ladder to hook over.

 

Depends on folk if they think they want one for better safety. like seat belts in a car, its not always needed until it is then it is dam well needed.

Surely if you cut a foot slot in the rudder you will be losing turning force when you are travelling normally through the water since, as you turn the rudder, half the water will be passing through it, or have I misunderstood your suggestion?

 

I'm also not sure about the comparison the OP makes with blue water boats since the ladder that he refers to is often called the swim ladder since it's primary purpose is so that (voluntary) swimmers are able to get back aboard. I can't say I've ever been in a lumpy water marina where everyone drops their swim ladder when moored in case someone falls in, usually they only drop them when people want to go swimming or, if on a swinging mooring, when people want to get into the dinghy to go ashore. To have any reasonable effect on a narrow boat it would be necessary to drop the ladder whenever you moor up since you don't know when anyone is going to fall in, and the major problem is people falling in when there is no one else around.

 

In common with blue water boating the most certain way of preventing a disaster when falling in is to wear a lifejacket. Many of us don't (myself included) unless we think there is increased risk (river or tidal passages). That is the choice we make and may (or may not ) live to regret it if we fall in.

[W+T]

Surely if you cut a foot slot in the rudder you will be losing turning force when you are travelling normally through the water since, as you turn the rudder, half the water will be passing through it, or have I misunderstood your suggestion?

 

I'm also not sure about the comparison the OP makes with blue water boats since the ladder that he refers to is often called the swim ladder since it's primary purpose is so that (voluntary) swimmers are able to get back aboard. I can't say I've ever been in a lumpy water marina where everyone drops their swim ladder when moored in case someone falls in, usually they only drop them when people want to go swimming or, if on a swinging mooring, when people want to get into the dinghy to go ashore. To have any reasonable effect on a narrow boat it would be necessary to drop the ladder whenever you moor up since you don't know when anyone is going to fall in, and the major problem is people falling in when there is no one else around.

 

In common with blue water boating the most certain way of preventing a disaster when falling in is to wear a lifejacket. Many of us don't (myself included) unless we think there is increased risk (river or tidal passages). That is the choice we make and may (or may not ) live to regret it if we fall in.

 

 

Not sure myself if a 4x3 slot would hinder steering may depend on the size of rudder.

[ditchcrawler]

Have you had a ladder fitted to your boat bigcol?

[Wanderer Vagabond]

 

 

Not sure myself if a 4x3 slot would hinder steering may depend on the size of rudder.

With a huge rudder on a butty it probably wouldn't make any significant difference but the modern narrow boat is designed with comparatively small rudders the purpose of which is to deflect the thrust from the prop (which is why they are such pigs to reverse). Put a hole in the rudder and I would think you'll lose a fair bit of steerage.

[Laurence Hogg]

Even having a climbing / ladder position on a boat doesn't predict where you might slip off, and that could mean you could be some 65 ft away from your emergency climbing facility. I don't think its a good idea although some form of toe holdstep put on at all four curves might make some sense, it is hard to get out and up.

edited for spelling

Edited December 27, 2015 by Laurence Hogg

[churchward]

I've copied this from another post, with the recent drownings and folks falling in, why is a safety ladder

Not common practice.

Proberly a stupid question, why is it narrow boats don't have boarding ladders made as when built

and after market stuff designed and made for retro fitting??

 

On narrow boats, there sometimes a step shape on the stern, but why isn't this extended or and folded.

Blue water boats have boarding ladders than some don't go down deep enough, but on canal boats there's nothing? Why nothing??

All the safety stuff for BSS, but no safety ladder

 

What about welding steps on the rudder at the bottom? And handles/dolly/cleat shaped to a large handle

I'm talking steps that be confatably used by most people

Just seems sad that there are accidents, but if all boats had these ladders then crew or public when needed could be used.

 

george94, on 27 Dec 2015

 

It's a very good point. One of the biggest causes of death on the canals, so I believe, is lone boaters falling in after a night in the pub, and not being able to get out.

 

It's not impossible that scrapping the BSS and simply requiring steps at the stern would result in a net reduction of mortalities.

 

Food for thought.

I don't understand why the scrapping of the BSS would save people from drowning?

 

I do catch your drift in terms of safety around the boat and getting out if you fall in. We have a gang plank on the boat that will also double as a ladder of sorts.

 

An idea I have mused over before is a short rope with a loop large enough for a foot to go through at one end and a loop at the other to go over T stud at the fore end or over the mooring bollard at the other. The loop can dangle in the water for a foot or 18ins or so below the water so when you fall in you can get your foot in and use the boat and the boat side to pull yourself out.

[tidal]

There's quite a bit of discussion of this problem on here (see http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=81165 )

 

And the more the merrier.
It's one of those things we ignore at our peril........ literally

[Boaty Jo]

One thing you can do is try it. Jump in, climb in or whatever then see if you can actually get out. It's probably more difficult than you think.

Try it in the best case scenario - warm weather / water, daylight, with your equipment ready and plenty of people about to help. Then imagine the worst case.

There are many variables (temperature, location, alcohol, fitness, solo boating etc. etc.) but it's worth thinking about things.

A 'man overboard' procedure is a must, a life-saver, either when moving or at a mooring.

 

Relating to the OP, as I've said before I'm a fan of a fixed, shore-secured ladder when at a mooring. I'm not a fan of rope ladders - your feet are pushed away from you and clambering onto a pontoon is akin to climbing over an overhang. While moving a rope ladder MAY be the best option.

 

Maybe there are 3 main aspects to this. Prevention, staying afloat long enough when you're in, then getting out.

 

First aid is another thing to think about. Hypothermia, shock, near-drowning, secondary drowning even.

[Shropie Lad]

I recently had to Fish a Guy out of the Llangollen at wrenbury, A 'little old guy' missed his footing & in he went , Two strong & fit men took a least 15mins to get him on dry land if it had been seasonable weather not sure their would have been a good outcome.

[ditchcrawler]

If you think it a good idea to have a ladder why do you need the BSS to tell you, just do it

[StephenA]

Due to the shape of a narrow boat and the canals they are used on the only place that you could really have a fixed ladder would be at the stern. If you have a trad stern then there wouldn't be anything to get hold of on the deck to help you complete the climb out of the water (think how lock ladders extend above the top of the lock) and if you have a cruiser stern then you'll have something to hold on to but you'll have to climb over the rails.

 

Cutting a hole in the rudder has been suggested but what is going to stop the rudder from turning when you put your foot in the hole and basically lean on it as you start to climb out.

[bigcol]

Have you had a ladder fitted to your boat bigcol?

Yep!! Not a fitted one, yes have alliminum normal ladder, sits drags on the bottom, secured by a rope on cleat.

 

So now moored up home mooring deployed.

When I moor up anywhere it's deployed

And when were traveling sometimes we leave it out. Don't go anywhere near prop, but sometimes when levels low it drags. I always have the option of bring it back on the back, but always try to have it out,

And have used it, 3 times on purpose. For me who is unfit compared to many, I can get in or out easily.

 

I'm glad you asked the question

 

Thankyou

 

Col

Photo shows the ladder sitting on the bottom

 

Edited apologies

Edited December 28, 2015 by bigcol

[StephenA]

And when were traveling sometimes we leave it out. Don't go anywhere near prop, but sometimes when levels low it drags. I always have the option of bring it back on the back, but always try to have it out,

 

What happens if it snags on something in the canal - like a shopping trolley, car etc.....?

[bigcol]

I can quickly take the ladder of and put it along side the canal if needed.

Very much like a life ring, just one day it may be needed.

I've had the ladder for 4 years, before a rope ladder which wasn't very good.

Needed to be longer, and more stable.

 

I bet more narrowboats could have a ladder the same just of a side cleat.

Also boat yards and marinas should have ladders installed compulsory.

Wasn't their one fellow in a marina that drowned beginning of year.?

What happens if it snags on something in the canal - like a shopping trolley, car etc.....?

it never has, even lightly dragging on the bottom,

always felt that a shopping trolley could snag the prop or rudder or ladder.

If it happened I would stop, or boat would, just like normal I would have to unsnag, when cruising there's more water underneath, so it just hangs their when motoring slowly.

Edited December 28, 2015 by bigcol