Reversing

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, IanD said:

 

Given the amount of cr*p and debris in many UK canals, especially towards the bottom where a drogue (or bucket, or whatever...) is likely to drag and pick this up, I suspect this idea is unusable even if it works fine in deep open waters like the helpful drawing shows... 😉 

 

Try it you may be surprised - AS I STATED the bucket does not drag along the bottom in will be near the surface. Adjust the tow rope length if needed.

 

6 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

As you reverse, the bucket is towed along (in the water, not on the bottom) and holds the bow straight. Yes it works well in a canal !

 

[IanD]

19 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Try it you may be surprised - AS I STATED the bucket does not drag along the bottom in will be near the surface. Adjust the tow rope length if needed.

 

 

Why would I need to, when I now have a throttleable BT which is far more effective? 😉 

 

Out of curiosity, have you ever actually tried this on real shallow debris-filled UK canals, or are you just applying your salty water experience? 😉 

Edited March 13 by IanD

[howardang]

13 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

Given the amount of cr*p and debris in many UK canals, especially towards the bottom where a drogue (or bucket, or whatever...) is likely to drag and pick this up, I suspect this idea is unusable even if it works fine in deep open waters like the helpful drawing shows... 😉 

I agree and I would also suggest that most requirements for reversing on canals are short distances where the faff of rigging and recovering a bucket would be more trouble than it is worth and cause more issues . Like others have said, practice  makes perfect using the tiller and throttle without the need for additional complications.
 

Howard

[Alan de Enfield]

Just now, IanD said:

Why would I need to, when I have a throttleable BT which is far more effective? 😉 

 

Then why do you feel qualified to say that it will not work ?

 

 

1 minute ago, IanD said:

Out of curiosity, have you ever actually tried this on real shallow debris-filled UK canals, or are you just applying your salty water experience?

 

You seem to forget that I have had boats on the muddy ditches for 40+ years, some can be reversed and some cannot - for those,  yes I have used a drogue if I have a long reverse and it makes it much easier.

 

If you have crew, then stationing them in the bow with a long shaft can also work to stop the bow from drifting.

 

[IanD]

11 minutes ago, howardang said:

I agree and I would also suggest that most requirements for reversing on canals are short distances where the faff of rigging and recovering a bucket would be more trouble than it is worth and cause more issues . Like others have said, practice  makes perfect using the tiller and throttle without the need for additional complications.
 

Howard

 

I've done this on numerous occasions, but I think "perfect" is overstating it rather -- practice makes mostly OK is closer to the truth, so long you're not in a relatively narrow channel (e.g. moored boats) with a crosswind, or reversing round a bend... 😞 

Edited March 13 by IanD

[Jonny P]

The RYA IW Helmsman courses that were run by Willow Wren Training used to teach a technique for steering in reverse. I’m not sure though that it’s standard on all such courses.

 

The only person above that seems to know the technique is @David Mack.

 

Holding the rudder at approximately 45 degrees holds a wedge of water behind the blade that acts in a way that allows the boat to maintain a certain trim (because in truth it is more a case of trim than actual steering). It genuinely does work as before I was taught I had difficulty reversing Vulpes - a short boat with relatively deep draught and large propeller for its size - but now have much more success including with lots of other boats that I move. Nonetheless if I have a bow thruster available I will it use it unless it’s near dead calm which in my experience is almost unheard of in a marina.

 

However as with any manoeuvre wind and shallow water are your enemy and it’s really important that you get the boat set up in, and parallel to, the deepest channel.

 

i was also taught that the slower a boat is reversed the easier it is to control in reverse and I have found that to be the case. The boat will rotate slightly as you reverse and keeping that rotation as slow as possible is key to being able to correct it with opposite ‘lock’. Go too fast and the boat will just rotate too quickly to be recoverable.

 

ETA - forgot the important bit; point the blade of the rudder toward the direction you want the boat to move (looking backward).

Edited March 13 by Jonny P

[pearley]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

 

*** of course using a BT to steer when going ahead instead of the tiller like some newbies -- especially in wideboats -- seem to do is completely beyond the pale... 🙂

Moored on the T & M just past Anderton I was amused at a widebeam steering by bowthruster. Still hit the bridge sides.

 

Now we are in Hartford Marina with a number of 12' 6" widebeams I've got quite used to the scream as they manoeuvre from berth to services and back. And this is a very open marina.

1 hour ago, IanD said:

 

*** of course using a BT to steer when going ahead instead of the tiller like some newbies -- especially in wideboats -- seem to do is completely beyond the pale... 🙂

Moored on the T & M just past Anderton I was amused at a widebeam steering by bowthruster. Still hit the bridge sides.

 

Now we are in Hartford Marina with a number of 12' 6" widebeams I've got quite used to the scream as they manoeuvre from berth to services and back. And this is a very open marina.

[IanD]

Just now, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Then why do you feel qualified to say that it will not work ?

 

You seem to forget that I have had boats on the muddy ditches for 40+ years, some can be reversed and some cannot - for those,  yes I have used a drogue if I have a long reverse and it makes it much easier.

 

If you have crew, then stationing them in the bow with a long shaft can also work to stop the bow from drifting.

 

Is nobody allowed to cast any doubt on your statements? You certainly don't feel that way about anyone else's... 😉 

 

And misquoting as usual -- what I carefully said was "I suspect this idea is unusable even if it works fine in deep open waters". My opinion, which you can of course disagree with... 🙂 

 

I'm glad to hear that you have actually used this successfully on the canals, but note that you said "if I have a long reverse" -- which of course, most aren't...

[David Mack]

56 minutes ago, KezzerN said:

Talking of slamming around to 90 degrees, I am amazed at the number of people that sit on the seat right beside the tiller while driving considering it is so dangerous to do that.

Indeed!

And when reversing stand in front of the tiller. DO NOT stand alongside it, as if the rudder catches on anything it could slam over and knock you off the side of the boat into the path of the mincing machine below.

[Tonka]

30 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I'd have thought some of our knowledgable blue water sailing members (Gobby-ho or Lady G) might have mentioned drogues - but it seems not. No one has mentioned this 'old fashioned' (almost always 100% successful) method.

 

A drogue anchor is a matter of a few £s and is simply a small parachute on a line - a home made alternative is to use a bucket on a rope - throw it over board with something like a 20-30 foot line,

 

As you reverse, the bucket is towed along (in the water, not on the bottom) and holds the bow straight. Yes it works well in a canal !

 

It is a life saving device used at sea - if you have an engine failure or are demasted you need to keep your 'head' into the waves, if you turn sideways, the waves roll you over and you sink and die.

 

Osculati Sea Drogue Anchor 530x600mm <special id="1" />6m Boats

 

The waves, wind, tides are making you go backwards (equivalent to being in reverse) and the drogue keeps the bow straigh in line :

 

The Thames Inspector in the Teddington to Staines length always insisted the their was a bucket with a length of line attached onboard the patrol vessel before going out

[cuthound]

If your boat doesn't steer in reverse and you haven't got a bow thruster, one technique that can work is to reverse, then when the boat invariably veers off from where you want it to go (top tip, spend more time looking where the bow is rather than just looking where the stern is going), put the boat in forward gear and whilst its momentum is still taking you backwards, steer the front to where you want it.

[Ex Brummie]

Practice certainly helps, but no-one has mentioned that the presence of gogoozlers will negate anything you've learned.😱

[Wafi]

4 hours ago, David Mack said:

Remember when reversing, point the tail end of the rudder towards where you want the stern to go.

When I taught sailing, I used to tell people to point the back of tiller in the direction they wanted the boat to go, which seemed to be quite easy for them to visualise. Works really well in almost any sailing boat with a tiller, the only exception being a handful of dinghies with large rigs and open transoms that have a tendency to stand themselves on their transoms if you try to sail them backwards.

 

I'm still trying to figure out whether the rudder on my narrowboat has any effect at all when the engine is in reverse.

[David Mack]

9 minutes ago, Wafi said:

I'm still trying to figure out whether the rudder on my narrowboat has any effect at all when the engine is in reverse.

Definitely! I can steer both Fulbourne and Belfast backwards when the conditions are right, and the boats do steer in reverse, albeit not as well as when going forwards. Once the boat is moving backwards there is a flow of water over the rudder which is all that is needed for some steering effect. Having quite a large rudder is probably beneficial.

[blackrose]

1 hour ago, David Mack said:

 Once the boat is moving backwards there is a flow of water over the rudder which is all that is needed for some steering effect. Having quite a large rudder is probably beneficial.

 

Doesn't a rudder behave more as a deflector than a rudder when going astern? So it's not so much water flowing over the rudder, rather into it.

[Ray T]

Unfortunately I don’t have a video, but once saw Ron Withey steer an ex working boat in reverse from the entrance of Braunston marina to almost the end of the original Oxford Canal and bring it along side to moor. Mind you he was brought up to it.😀

[blackrose]

1 hour ago, Wafi said:

I'm still trying to figure out whether the rudder on my narrowboat has any effect at all when the engine is in reverse.

 

Mine doesn't do much.

 

Without using the BT, I just go backwards (looking forwards) until the bow starts to wander; knock it into forward gear to correct the bow position and then back into astern, and so on...

[David Mack]

4 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

Doesn't a rudder behave more as a deflector than a rudder when going astern? So it's not so much water flowing over the rudder, rather into it.

Semantics I think. The water necessarily flows around the rudder, but when the rudder is at an angle to the flow direction, the water has to be deflected, and that imposes a sideways force on the rudder which steers the boat.

[Jonny P]

2 hours ago, David Mack said:

Definitely! I can steer both Fulbourne and Belfast backwards when the conditions are right, and the boats do steer in reverse, albeit not as well as when going forwards. Once the boat is moving backwards there is a flow of water over the rudder which is all that is needed for some steering effect. Having quite a large rudder is probably beneficial.

Full length boats tend to hold their shape very well, I’m guessing because they’ve got plenty of water resistance along the sides holding them straight.

 

Certainly of those historics (and other long heavy boats) I’ve steered they are much better at staying straight when put into reverse to stop than a mock tug such as Vulpes. I pretty much do anything I can to prevent having to do that because I will end up as an instruction across the canal.
 

Using the reversing method described I have managed to reverse the three quarters of a mile from Grand Junction Aqueduct to Rushall Junction on the Tame Valley. That took a lot of setting up to negate bank effect at the start but once going I was able to steer the distance in one go including going through one side of the toll island without resorting to forward gear or a line from the bank.

 

Similarly I also managed to reverse back from the Navigation Inn offside mooring to Kingswood Junction and turn the stern under the junction bridge in order to wind in one movement.

 

Similarly there are occasions when conditions conspire against you.

[blackrose]

1 hour ago, David Mack said:

Semantics I think. The water necessarily flows around the rudder, but when the rudder is at an angle to the flow direction, the water has to be deflected, and that imposes a sideways force on the rudder which steers the boat.

 

The difference is that when the boat's going forward water flows over the rudder and the fulcrum is around the rudder stock. When you're in astern water hits the rudder and the fulcrum isn't well defined because it's acting as a deflector. It's not semantics, it's physics.

[LadyG]

8 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Well they would, wouldn't they😀

Those tiny training boats do handle fairly easily.

I try to get the boat to go in a straight line, 

if I push the tiller almost halfway  to stbd the rudder points to where i want to go, in theory. The bow should swing out to stdbd

If I want the bow to swing out to port, I push the tiller almost halfway  to port so the rudder is pointing to stbd, 

Best is to get the boat midstream and tickle the throttle in reverse. It sometimes works quite well and sometimes I have to keep kicking the stern straight using tiller over and forward quick blast, while trying to avoid  going ahead.

The boat could,  in theory, pivot about its centreline, 

A yacht with a keel is better behaved, I take the tiller in both hands, facing the stern and point the rudder blade at my destination.

The more often i read this the more confused I get!

 

Edited March 13 by LadyG

[dmr]

Many/most boats will steer in reverse, and as said above you point the swan neck (not the tiller) in the direction you want the back to go. The steering effort is a bit pathetic so apply a good 45 degree tiller swing to get the best effort you can, and note that it only takes a bit of wind or silt to totally cancel out your steering. The big thing to note is that to steer in a straight line you need to make any course corrections really quickly so keep a close eye on the boat direction and make corrections as soon as it starts to go wrong, once the boat has started to turn its too late and you need to go into forward, waiting till the water has changed direction etc etc which takes ages. Its quite hard to judge direction from the back, watching both the boat and where you are going, so it can be good to have an assistant/pilot standing on the front and watching the boat direction and giving you hand signals.

[David Mack]

18 minutes ago, blackrose said:

The difference is that when the boat's going forward water flows over the rudder and the fulcrum is around the rudder stock.

That depends on the rudder balance. If the side force on the rudder acts through the axis of rotation I.e. the rudder stock, then the rudder is balanced and no force is needed to hold the tiller over. If the side force is behind (or in front) of the stock then the rudder is unbalanced and force is needed on the tiller to hold it across. The water does not 'know' where the rudder axis of rotation is, it just flows around a plate which is at an angle to the direction of arriving water flow.

24 minutes ago, blackrose said:

When you're in astern water hits the rudder and the fulcrum isn't well defined because it's acting as a deflector.

When the boat is in astern and moving backwards, water is still arriving at and flowing over the rudder. Its a slower stream both because the boat is probably moving more slowly and because it isn't concentrated like the jet from a propeller. And consequently the side force is less, which is why steering in reverse has less effect on the boat's direction of travel (and therefore other effects - wind, current, bank effect, prop walk etc. are more likely to push the boat where you don't want it to go). Because the rudder is now working backwards it behaves like a normal rudder with a large forward projection and a small blade trailing. Hence the side force on the rudder acts behind the stock and tends to push the rudder more across rather than back towards the straight position. Which is why you have to grasp the tiller more firmly when reversing. Again the water does not 'know' where the pivot axis is - its just flowing around an angled plate.

[This all assumes a simple plate rudder. Probably gets a lot more complicated comparing a fishtail/schilling rudder going forwards and backwards.]

[Stroudwater1]

I’ve learn much from this thread, we luckily do have a large rudder and definitely we can steer in reverse. I hadn’t fully understood the 45 degree bit though and was going to 90 degree which has been hopeless. 

Definitely slower revs is better and you do need to straighten and set the boat straight before reversing otherwise you continue to drift the way you were going in forewards…. 
 

Practicing in the evening is the way to go in a quiet place. 
 

Another technique is using a long shaft/ pole especially from the bow. That can be really effective.
 

Ideally you need two crew. I’ve found getting a shallow angle better and prodding rather than pushing too hard for too long, the pole can get stuck in mud. Pushing away from the direction the boat is going in is much better (ie facing toward the stern and pushing backwards) otherwise it could be dangerous with the pole being pushed into the mud and getting suddenly stuck. Stand to the side of the pole too. 
 

I’ve seen experts handle buttys really well using long poles, getting out of Hawne basin isn’t easy in a 70 foot butty with Gongoozlers getting up after a long weekend cruise but these guys knew what they were doing (I like to think)  😀. 
 

 

Edited March 17 by Stroudwater1

[Tonka]

There is an old proverb

Practice makes perfect

Which is a load of tosh because if you are not doing it correctly, doing it wrong over and over again will only make permanent