Email from CaRT

[Ronaldo47]

57 minutes ago, M_JG said:

 

See above. We were told completely the opposite.

Someone on the radio last week observed that if you ask two lawyers for an opinion, you will get three different answers. 

 

.A lot depends  on the facts of the case. Similar, but slightly different, factual circumstances can result in different outcomes, as can changes in the law.   

 

Shortly after we moved here, a new neighbour moved in across the road, bringing his caravan with him. The covenants meant that  he was obliged to store it elsewhere, and he eventually sold it.

A few years later we bought a camper van and had no problems keeping it parked on our drive. 

 

Edited November 23, 2023 by Ronaldo47
further comments, typos

[MtB]

Just now, magnetman said:

The pigs and the leather is understandable due to the smell but a brothel seems reasonably harmless provided it is kept respectable. 

 

 

And there's the rub, to coin a phrase. It was in a very respectable quarter of Reading and I suspect the builders didn't want to risk the new owners running any sort of less-than-respectable brothel. 

 

As if they would! 

 

 

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

27 minutes ago, Sweeny Todd said:

That one is for sale. The boat I am working on is a bit bigger than that one. It's an old working barge from the 1930's. A way bigger project than we imagined. 

 

 

 

 

So can you let us know which moorings is your boat moored?

as this says Castleford? Same person? 

https://narrowboats.apolloduck.co.uk/boat/narrow-boats-cruiser-stern-for-sale/739155

Edited November 23, 2023 by BoatinglifeupNorth

[magnetman]

8 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

And there's the rub, to coin a phrase. It was in a very respectable quarter of Reading and I suspect the builders didn't want to risk the new owners running any sort of less-than-respectable brothel. 

 

As if they would! 

 

 

The brothel issue is interesting. I presume there are and have been brothels on boats. It would need to be selective like a good quality school. 

 

Narrow brothels could be regarded as more appropriate than wide brothels by people with a good knowledge of history. 

 

Old tugs would be good due to the multiple levels. 

[harrybsmith]

CRT are reasonably toothless when it comes to vehicles on their moorings. 

I used to moor at a certain residential mooring site in central Birmingham run by them, there was all sorts of stuff in the car park that shouldn't have been there and for the most part was fine. Caravans caused an issue but never anything self propelled. What do your neighbours think? If they're aggrieved I'd move it, if they're not I'd probably stick it out 

[David Mack]

2 hours ago, magnetman said:

It seems to me that the land owner can dictate what sort of vehicles are allowed to use their property. 

 

But then again if parking is specifically mentioned in the mooring contract then it would come down to what the legal definition of 'caravan' is

A boat mooring contract is not immutable. CRT almost certainly have the right to give you a month's or 3 months notice to leave. So they can unilaterally amend the terms of the contract on the same basis. If motorhomes are causing a problem in the car park they can simply prohibit them, and a boater would be unable to insist on keeping to the wording of the original contract terms.

Far better in the OPs case to explain why their motor home is there, and ask for permission to continue using the car park when visiting the boat.

[tree monkey]

6 hours ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

So can you let us know which moorings is your boat moored?

as this says Castleford? Same person? 

https://narrowboats.apolloduck.co.uk/boat/narrow-boats-cruiser-stern-for-sale/739155

If the OP doesn't want to tell the forum they don't have to, personally this badgering is getting slightly stalky 

[Mike Hurley]

Camper vans and motorhomes used be classed as motor caravans for taxation class, as i remember it.

[Cheese]

I would have thought the original reason for the rule is to avoid people parking up and sleeping in a motorhome overnight. If as you say you are never sleeping in it when onsite (and you are not letting anyone else sleep in it either) then it isn't really any different to any other car or vehicle. I would write back explaining that.

[Tracy D'arth]

Why be contentious when you have no security of tenure? You risk losing your mooring.

[Alan de Enfield]

If it is any help according to the V5 (log book)  the 'status' of my "Motorhome', 'Camper Van', 'Motorised Snail' is :

 

Motor Caravan

 

 

 

 

A caravan is a structure which is designed or adapted for human habitation and is capable of being moved from one place to another.[1] This does not include railway rolling stock or tents.

This definition covers a broad range of movable structures, including traditional caravans, campervans, motorhomes, and adapted static railway carriages. A houseboat, which consisted of a caravan on a float (known as a Hartford Houseboat) was held to meet the statutory definition of a caravan. The caravan could be towed and removed but the float could not. [2]

 

 

 

Whilst looking up the legal definition of a caravan I stumbled across this 'little gem' on the "Shelter" website :

 

Last updated: 22 March 2023

A person is legally homeless if they live in a movable structure such as a caravan, mobile home or houseboat, and there is nowhere where they have permission to put it and live in it (s.175(2)(b) Housing Act 1996.)

 

Which would suggest that CCers are 'legally' homeless, as the boat licence is not a 'permission to moor'

 

 

 

One should be quite careful about 'rocking the boat' as many camper DIY panel van conversions have never had their V5 status changed from 'VAN' to "MOTOR CARAVAN".

 

It is illegal to use a "VAN" for 'living accomodation' and amongst other things it 'affects' your insurance.

Edited November 24, 2023 by Alan de Enfield

[David Mack]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Which would suggest that CCers are 'legally' homeless, as the boat licence is not a 'permission to moor'

As presumably are those who live on leisure moorings.

[StephenA]

2 hours ago, Cheese said:

I would have thought the original reason for the rule is to avoid people parking up and sleeping in a motorhome overnight. If as you say you are never sleeping in it when onsite (and you are not letting anyone else sleep in it either) then it isn't really any different to any other car or vehicle. I would write back explaining that.

 

It's also probably down to size / manoeuvrability.

 

Our CRT mooring rules state:

 

Quote

8. All motor vehicles brought onto the site must be roadworthy and should be taxed with a valid
MOT certificate. A vehicle cannot be declared SORN on Canal and River Trust Property. Any
Vehicles without TAX, MOT or declared SORN shall be subject to British Waterway Act
1983 section 9 removal notice action.

9. No Caravans/Motorhomes shall be stored at the site and shall be subject to British
Waterway Act 1983 section 9 removal notice action.

 

We're at Ladybird at Market Drayton and it's a small car park with limited turning space.

 

 

And yes - that is a motor home but it belongs to the people who used to be the mooring managers and I understand that they have an agreement with CRT to keep it there

[Cheese]

15 minutes ago, StephenA said:

It's also probably down to size / manoeuvrability....

But you would have to agree that that's a bit illogical. So it is ok to keep a 4-ton truck, but not a small VW camper?? If it was really about manoeuvrability it should just be a maximum vehicle size ...

[David Mack]

22 minutes ago, StephenA said:

9. No Caravans/Motorhomes shall be stored at the site and shall be subject to British
Waterway Act 1983 section 9 removal notice action.

So if it is there longterm it is arguably 'stored' and so not permitted. But short term visits by a motorhome would seem to be allowed.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

If it is any help according to the V5 (log book)  the 'status' of my "Motorhome', 'Camper Van', 'Motorised Snail' is :

 

Motor Caravan

 

 

 

 

A caravan is a structure which is designed or adapted for human habitation and is capable of being moved from one place to another.[1] This does not include railway rolling stock or tents.

This definition covers a broad range of movable structures, including traditional caravans, campervans, motorhomes, and adapted static railway carriages. A houseboat, which consisted of a caravan on a float (known as a Hartford Houseboat) was held to meet the statutory definition of a caravan. The caravan could be towed and removed but the float could not. [2]

 

 

 

Whilst looking up the legal definition of a caravan I stumbled across this 'little gem' on the "Shelter" website :

 

Last updated: 22 March 2023

A person is legally homeless if they live in a movable structure such as a caravan, mobile home or houseboat, and there is nowhere where they have permission to put it and live in it (s.175(2)(b) Housing Act 1996.)

 

Which would suggest that CCers are 'legally' homeless, as the boat licence is not a 'permission to moor'

 

 

 

One should be quite careful about 'rocking the boat' as many camper DIY panel van conversions have never had their V5 status changed from 'VAN' to "MOTOR CARAVAN".

 

It is illegal to use a "VAN" for 'living accomodation' and amongst other things it 'affects' your insurance.

 

That, (the V5) was the basis of the advice we were given that I referred to earlier. Basically they are both 'caravans', but one has a motor and the other doesn't.

[Ronaldo47]

I used to have a high-top motor caravan (a Toyota Newlander) that, at around 8'6" high, was too tall for local garages,  so I used to have it MOT'd at  the local HGV MOT station, where they had a day for testing that class of vehicle once a fortnight. The vehicle was built on the Toyota Hi-Ace pickup truck chassis, and as part of the test, the tester inspected the interior to check that beds were present. He explained that, if it hadn't had beds, he couldn't have tested it as a motor caravan, and it would have had to have had the more stringent test applicable to a commercial vehicle. So on that criterion, the essential difference between a motor caravan and a van, is that one has beds and the other does not.

 

The Camping and Caravanning Club administers various minimum facility sites. Some are licenced only for tents and not for use by caravans or motor caravans. In response to a query that was published in their magazine  some years ago, it was confirmed that motor caravans were allowed on such sites, as long as you also had a tent and  slept in that.

Edited November 24, 2023 by Ronaldo47
typos, additional comment.

[jonathanA]

I think there is a difference between a leisure moorer visiting their moorings in a campervan/motor home and a moorer keeping their motorhome at the mooring site or someone living in it on the car park.   I think in these situations there is nothing to be lost in actually speaking to the local mooring manager to understand what the issue (or perceived issue) is .  it could be they just need a bit of help/co-operation in managing a situation or dealing with a piss taker or are concerned that other motorhome owners may think its a legitimate place to stay overnight. 

 

have you tried speaking to CRT ?

Edited November 24, 2023 by jonathanA

[haggis]

I suppose if everyone who has a boat in a marina also has a motor home there the car park would need to be almost as big as the waterspace, especially in marinas where there is a high percentage of live aboards, above or below the radar.  A line will have to be drawn somewhere and it isprobably easier to have a complete ban rather than a partial one

[Ronaldo47]

My camper can was short enough to fit a standard car park parking bay. Some of the  current large SUVs have a bigger footprint.

[BilgePump]

12 minutes ago, haggis said:

I suppose if everyone who has a boat in a marina also has a motor home there the car park would need to be almost as big as the waterspace, especially in marinas where there is a high percentage of live aboards, above or below the radar.  A line will have to be drawn somewhere and it isprobably easier to have a complete ban rather than a partial one

I guess that a lot of this problem is that the campervans we see in the UK have grown from the little VW bus with a toilet tent to RVs that are more akin in size to rockstar tour buses.

[Alan de Enfield]

18 minutes ago, Ronaldo47 said:

My camper can was short enough to fit a standard car park parking bay. Some of the  current large SUVs have a bigger footprint.

 

My Camper is 4.95mt long and fits in a standard "Tesco car park bay', for both length and width.

Height at 2.4mt (roof vent clearance) can be a problem at some 'height restricted' car parks, and obviously 'multi story car parks' are a no-no.

 

But is basically the same width as my Mercedes and about 2" longer.

Edited November 24, 2023 by Alan de Enfield

[David Mack]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

My Camper is 4.95mt long and fits in a standard "Tesco car park bay', for both length and width.

Height at 2.4mt (roof vent clearance) can be a problem at some 'height restricted' car parks, and obviously 'multi story car parks' are a no-no.

 

But is basically the same width as my Mercedes and about 2" longer.

It may fit in a standard Tesco parking bay, since the supermarkets tend to provide larger spaces than other car parks for the convenience of shoppers with shopping, children etc. But a UK standard parking space is 4.8m long by 2.4m wide (having been metricated from the previous 16 feet by 8 feet standard). The standard was set many years ago, and cars of all types (not just SUVs) have grown in size in that time. Which is why parking a modern car in some car parks can be a bit of a squeeze.

[Iain_S]

2 hours ago, Ronaldo47 said:

I used to have a high-top motor caravan (a Toyota Newlander) that, at around 8'6" high, was too tall for local garages,  so I used to have it MOT'd at  the local HGV MOT station, where they had a day for testing that class of vehicle once a fortnight. The vehicle was built on the Toyota Hi-Ace pickup truck chassis, and as part of the test, the tester inspected the interior to check that beds were present. He explained that, if it hadn't had beds, he couldn't have tested it as a motor caravan, and it would have had to have had the more stringent test applicable to a commercial vehicle. So on that criterion, the essential difference between a motor caravan and a van, is that one has beds and the other does not.

(snip)

 That's interesting: some years ago I was chatting to a showman whose living accommodation was the trailer of an artic, The vehicle had a normal MoT, which he obtained annually by post from somewhere in Aberdeen!

Edited November 24, 2023 by Iain_S

[Tacet]

5 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

If it is any help according to the V5 (log book)  the 'status' of my "Motorhome', 'Camper Van', 'Motorised Snail' is :

 

Motor Caravan

 

 

 

 

A caravan is a structure which is designed or adapted for human habitation and is capable of being moved from one place to another.[1] This does not include railway rolling stock or tents.

This definition covers a broad range of movable structures, including traditional caravans, campervans, motorhomes, and adapted static railway carriages. A houseboat, which consisted of a caravan on a float (known as a Hartford Houseboat) was held to meet the statutory definition of a caravan. The caravan could be towed and removed but the float could not. [2]

 

 

 

Whilst looking up the legal definition of a caravan I stumbled across this 'little gem' on the "Shelter" website :

 

Last updated: 22 March 2023

A person is legally homeless if they live in a movable structure such as a caravan, mobile home or houseboat, and there is nowhere where they have permission to put it and live in it (s.175(2)(b) Housing Act 1996.)

 

Which would suggest that CCers are 'legally' homeless, as the boat licence is not a 'permission to moor'

 

 

 

One should be quite careful about 'rocking the boat' as many camper DIY panel van conversions have never had their V5 status changed from 'VAN' to "MOTOR CARAVAN".

 

It is illegal to use a "VAN" for 'living accomodation' and amongst other things it 'affects' your insurance.

13 pairs of unnecessary inverted commas in one post.  Surely a personal best.