Help understanding energy systems

[system 4-50]

Some difficulties I had with my sailaway:

Power.  The yard I was in tended to turn power off when they left for the day. 

Security. It took time to get the doors and windows securable.  Until then all tools and valuable materials had to be shipped in and out for each working day.

Cold.  I started in December and working in a steel boat in Winter is very cold.

Lead Times.  These were a pain for eg windows.

Fumes. Eg varnish, sprayfoam.  This meant that it was not possible to sleep in the boat sometimes.

Time. I didn't have enough time.

Living. Just living took time once the boat was on the water.

 

6 minutes ago, Mr.T said:

Many thanks for your replies, maybe I’ll be proven wrong but the boat will be arriving lined and bulkheads built and all the tech bits will be done by professionals. So I don’t see how installing a galley and bathroom suite, laying a floor, painting and building bedroom furniture (basically a bed) will take that long. Unless there’s something I’m missing?

with windows in?

[Jon57]

20 minutes ago, GUMPY said:

Oh no it wont.

I added 10ft to our barge and it took a matter of a few weeks to get it to sailaway standard. Because I was working it took me 5 years to finish it and that was with me having most of the skills to do it and having access to traders to do the bits I couldn't.  This was before the RCD and similar became mandatory.

Whatever time you think it will take then treble it and you will be close.

This is true. Took me 3 days to  remove and retile the bathroom floor (one and a half square meters) on my previous boat. 

[nicknorman]

2 minutes ago, Mr.T said:

Many thanks for your replies, maybe I’ll be proven wrong but the boat will be arriving lined and bulkheads built and all the tech bits will be done by professionals. So I don’t see how installing a galley and bathroom suite, laying a floor, painting and building bedroom furniture (basically a bed) will take that long. Unless there’s something I’m missing?

I’ve never built or fitted out a boat, but I do know that every trivial little job on our boat turns out to take far longer than expected. One big reason is the limited space. Everything is in the way of everything else!

[MtB]

2 minutes ago, Mr.T said:

Many thanks for your replies, maybe I’ll be proven wrong but the boat will be arriving lined and bulkheads built and all the tech bits will be done by professionals. So I don’t see how installing a galley and bathroom suite, laying a floor, painting and building bedroom furniture (basically a bed) will take that long. Unless there’s something I’m missing?

 

Its the other way around. Because you still don't see how it will take that long, you are missing something. 

 

It's all been explained, moderately and in an understated way already. You need to read the thread again and bear in mind that a lot of people's comments have understated how different boat fitting is from house fitting. I write as someone who like you, has been involved in kitchens, bathrooms and house renovating all my life. I'd say fitting out a sailaway is about the same amount of work as top-to-bottom renovation of perhaps two derelict/wrecked town centre turn-of-the-century Victorian terraces. The type where you have to park your van two streets away.

[Mr.T]

4 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Its the other way around. Because you still don't see how it will take that long, you are missing something. 

 

It's all been explained, moderately and in an understated way already. You need to read the thread again and bear in mind that a lot of people's comments have understated how different boat fitting is from house fitting. I write as someone who like you, has been involved in kitchens, bathrooms and house renovating all my life. I'd say fitting out a sailaway is about the same amount of work as top-to-bottom renovation of perhaps two derelict/wrecked town centre turn-of-the-century Victorian terraces. The type where you have to park your van two streets away.

I really don’t see how that is possible but I’ll take your word for it as you’ve been there and done it. Maybe it’ll take longer than expected but it is what it is I suppose. Windows and doors will already be installed. The walls will be lined and bulk heads fitted. So the finishing of a fairly small space seems fairly straightforward to me but you lot are out there living on them so I’ll take your words for it 🙂 many thanks for all the advice

[system 4-50]

Of the similar posts that have come in over the years, I have more confidence of you getting it done quickly than many.

[ditchcrawler]

3 minutes ago, system 4-50 said:

Of the similar posts that have come in over the years, I have more confidence of you getting it done quickly than many.

DeanS was the only other one. Are we there yet,

[MtB]

6 minutes ago, Mr.T said:

I really don’t see how that is possible but I’ll take your word for it as you’ve been there and done it. Maybe it’ll take longer than expected but it is what it is I suppose. Windows and doors will already be installed. The walls will be lined and bulk heads fitted. So the finishing of a fairly small space seems fairly straightforward to me but you lot are out there living on them so I’ll take your words for it 🙂 many thanks for all the advice

 

The core 'work' takes no longer to do than in a house. Once you're there, workmate set up, jigsaw in hand, plugged into the mains supply, it takes no longer to cut and erect studding etc., install pipe runs, cable runs and all that. Its getting the stuff to site that's the time consuming bit. I reckon whenever I do boat fitting, I spend 2/3 of my tome nowhere near the boat, but travelling about buying materials, tools etc and lugging them from marina car park 300 yards to where the boat is. Same with tools. There simply isn't the space in a boat to just bring the lot on board like you can in a house. Amazon, Screwfix etc don't deliver to marina moorings, or the towpath. What postcode would you put? Best to get your sailaway put in a farm building somewhere you can get the van right up close. Even then though, you'll have 8,000 trips up and down the ladder to get in and out of the boat...

 

Once you've done it and found out properly, do come back and try to convince the next newbie posting on here about how he will fit out his first sailaway in three months, beginning to end.... 

 

 

[system 4-50]

18 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

DeanS was the only other one. Are we there yet,

He only got it done quickly by painting it purple.  Not many are that extreme.  And how is he by the way? Its been nearly 4 years...

Edited August 9, 2023 by system 4-50

[roland elsdon]

They started building my boat in 1936.

I have no confidence it will ever be finished.. As you finish one bit another bit is busy deciding to rot  rust flake break or fail.

40 years of boats evidences that only you can define when the boat is finished.

The build morphs into maintenance rapidly, as evidenced by the mouldy grey primered projects littering the canals. Boats get away from you. I fix something daily, be it  a scratch, a thermocouple failing , or an oil change.

Im sure you will be fine, you appear to have your eyes wide open, enjoy the task.

 

However you need to apply Kiss principles, because the bits that fail are always the most inaccessible.

 

[MtB]

13 minutes ago, roland elsdon said:

However you need to apply Kiss principles, because the bits that fail are always the most inaccessible.

 

Ah yes, good advice. Not so much keep it simple, as keep it accessible. It might seem sensible to fit the water pump in the back of a cupboard for example, but nowadays I fit them in the front. Because in real life, I need access to the water pump to fix it more often than I need access to all the other stuff I put in my cupboards 😂
 

[Bod]

42 minutes ago, Mr.T said:

I really don’t see how that is possible but I’ll take your word for it as you’ve been there and done it. Maybe it’ll take longer than expected but it is what it is I suppose. Windows and doors will already be installed. The walls will be lined and bulk heads fitted. So the finishing of a fairly small space seems fairly straightforward to me but you lot are out there living on them so I’ll take your words for it 🙂 many thanks for all the advice

If all the internal walls and bulk heads are fitted, then be aware the door sizes are much smaller than houses, so getting items in place can be interesting!

Ready built kitchen units won't go through a 500mm wide door way.

 

Bod.

[MtB]

3 minutes ago, Bod said:

If all the internal walls and bulk heads are fitted, then be aware the door sizes are much smaller than houses, so getting items in place can be interesting!

Ready built kitchen units won't go through a 500mm wide door way.

 

Bod.

 

Good point. Sofas are another example. Careful measuring necessary! DAMHIK.

[David Mack]

1 hour ago, Mr.T said:

Many thanks for your replies, maybe I’ll be proven wrong but the boat will be arriving lined and bulkheads built and all the tech bits will be done by professionals. So I don’t see how installing a galley and bathroom suite, laying a floor, painting and building bedroom furniture (basically a bed) will take that long. Unless there’s something I’m missing?

Electrics and plumbing (and gas if any) already completed by the boatyard supplying the boat? If so then most of the RCR compliance will be already covered, and you can get on with the woodwork and painting. If not already done you have to find plumber, electrician and gas fitter and get them to come and do their work at the appropriate time within the build sequence. And you become the boatbuilder, legally responsible for ensuring their work complies with the RCR.

In practice until recently RCR compliance has been largely ignored by self builders/fitters, but increasingly it seems that brokers won't handle the sale of craft without the full RCD paperwork, so a non compliant (and certified) boat may be more of a liability in future.

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

6 hours ago, Mr.T said:

Thanks for the advice, I did consider buying an older boat as a test but I didn’t like the idea of buying something that could potentially have a lot of underlying issues. So for me the idea of buying new sounds a lot safer. I’m not taking it lightly though, which is why I’m trying to learn as much as possible before committing. 
I plan to genuinely cruise in the summer months and then stay fairly local to where I live currently in the winter probably with a winter mooring.

Just buy a good quality 2nd hand Narrowboat, save yourself a lot of money, 18-24 month waiting time, stress and anxiety, just get on the water quickly and enjoy it. You say you don't want an older boat, but there’s been lots of Newbies buying them over the last few years, who like yourself haven’t had a clue to what they’re letting themselves in for. Then have realised it’s not for them and sold their boats fairly soon after, so there’s good boats out there if you look. 

 

[LadyG]

6 minutes ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

Just buy a good quality 2nd hand Narrowboat, save yourself a lot of money, 18-24 month waiting time, stress and anxiety, just get on the water quickly and enjoy it. You say you don't want an older boat, but there’s been lots of Newbies buying them over the last few years, who like yourself haven’t had a clue to what they’re letting themselves in for. Then have realised it’s not for them and sold their boats fairly soon after, so there’s good boats out there if you look. 

 

It such a major change of lifestyle I don't think anyone can know if they will take to it, assuming that they have a choice.

Financially its inevitable that buying new is going be more expensive, and depreciation is going  hit harder, even though you think that the labour and the capital you put in to it will recompence, it might not. 

Anyway, it's a good plan to visit a few boats that are the sort of thing you intend to end up with.  A liveaboard needs more bells and whistles than a leisure user.

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

9 hours ago, LadyG said:

Anyway, it's a good plan to visit a few boats that are the sort of thing you intend to end up with.  A liveaboard needs more bells and whistles than a leisure user.

Most new boats these days are costings in excess of £160K up to £300K, they all  have enough bells and whistles to live on full time, it’s just easier on a £300K boat.

 Fairly new second hand boats over £100k should be adequate enough as a livaboard, but it’s all dependent on the modern individual lifestyle needs of the buyer.

 I did like the comment about using his Air Fryer, shows how high tech  new Narrowboats are getting and how old my boat is, as still doing oven chips in a gas oven. I think I need to spend £300K and get this sorted🍟😊

Edited August 10, 2023 by BoatinglifeupNorth

[Tony Brooks]

Just a comment from page one. Judging by all the questions I get directly by email, via the forum, and when working for the magazine, I can only laugh out loud when I see "potential problems" listed as a reason not to gave gas aboard and the person is talking about an all electric boat. The potential electrical problems are probably less nowadays with a PROPERLY DESIGNED lithium battery and charging system and generator, but I suspect gas will still have far fewer potential problems.

[Alan de Enfield]

16 hours ago, Mr.T said:

Thanks for the advice, I did consider buying an older boat as a test but I didn’t like the idea of buying something that could potentially have a lot of underlying issues. So for me the idea of buying new sounds a lot safer.

 

I think you may be wrong there - or maybe the people I know who have bought new boats have just been unlucky.

 

I have repeated this story several times but it is relevant.

 

A brand spanking new £300,000 widebeam arrived in our marina and a couple of days later a couple of vans full of guys arrived (5 of them) and went onto the boat, they worked on the boat all day. Next day 3 of them came back again, a couple of days later 2 of them returned. This went on on and off for a couple of weeks and after talking to them found out that they were the 'post sale rectification team' employed by the maufacturer to solve issues once the boat was sold and in the water.

 

I asked them if this boat was typical of the ones they were called out to, he replied "no, this one is better than most. It was actually built for the boat show and was 'especially hand finished and checked over carefully".

 

Three months later they were still coming and trying to resolve some problems - the major one being a water leak (external water leaking into the hull).

Eventually they gave up coming and told the owner that they had spent 4 months trying to correct the issue, which was more than they were contracted to do.

 

He never took it out of the marina and put it up for sale for offers over £250,000. A year later when we left the marina it was still up for sale and loking very abandoned.

 

If you buy a secondhand boat all the major problems will have been sorted out and you can just sail away into the sunset.

[LadyG]

Having redundancy built in to your energy systems is a must have imho. The marina resident has shore power as a a back up for heating and cooking, the off grid boater really needs a stove which doubles as heating and cooking.

If you are solely reliant on diesel you are assuming that there will never be a shortage, I would not bet my pension on that, having been through the three day week and the oil crisis, 

I have Webasto which heats water and radiators, ideal in the cooler months, but a solid fuel stove is on six months of the year and relies on deliveries, I've never been without ( kindling, logs and coal are to be found at many outlets).

Bottled gas is too expensive for central heating nowadays, but it is fine for cooking, the pipes and fittings are normally easy to inspect, and not complex, cookers have a failsafe system if the flame extinguishes, so in spite of my initial doubts, I am quite happy to use it as I have a good sense of smell and had everything checked by a Gas Safe, lpg & boat endorsed practitioner, a fitter,  not just an examiner.

16 hours ago, blackrose said:

 

What problems? They can't be that obvious because I've been living with safe gas systems on boats for the past 20 years and I don't know what you mean.

 

I disagree. Any stern type is worth considering for living on and indeed many people do live on many different types of boats.

Modern narrowboats may well have the galley at the stern , so it makes sense to have the gas locker there, when I say gas locker, it could be a cage , I've seen various stern  mounted systems.

Edited August 10, 2023 by LadyG

[Mr.T]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I think you may be wrong there - or maybe the people I know who have bought new boats have just been unlucky.

 

I have repeated this story several times but it is relevant.

 

A brand spanking new £300,000 widebeam arrived in our marina and a couple of days later a couple of vans full of guys arrived (5 of them) and went onto the boat, they worked on the boat all day. Next day 3 of them came back again, a couple of days later 2 of them returned. This went on on and off for a couple of weeks and after talking to them found out that they were the 'post sale rectification team' employed by the maufacturer to solve issues once the boat was sold and in the water.

 

I asked them if this boat was typical of the ones they were called out to, he replied "no, this one is better than most. It was actually built for the boat show and was 'especially hand finished and checked over carefully".

 

Three months later they were still coming and trying to resolve some problems - the major one being a water leak (external water leaking into the hull).

Eventually they gave up coming and told the owner that they had spent 4 months trying to correct the issue, which was more than they were contracted to do.

 

He never took it out of the marina and put it up for sale for offers over £250,000. A year later when we left the marina it was still up for sale and loking very abandoned.

 

If you buy a secondhand boat all the major problems will have been sorted out and you can just sail away into the sunset.

Sorry but this just doesn’t make sense to me. If that boat you’re talking about was ‘better than most’ and not able to enter the water then surely the boat builder who built it is not a boat builder at all and shouldn’t be in business. 
Are you suggesting that all new boats come with problems, or is this just one a few minority boats?

In my mind buying a new boat with all the electrics, plumbing, heating done by professionals should guarantee a problem free boat for at least a few years. But again I could be wrong, which is why I’m here 🙂 

[MtB]

17 hours ago, Mr.T said:

Thanks for the advice, I did consider buying an older boat as a test but I didn’t like the idea of buying something that could potentially have a lot of underlying issues. So for me the idea of buying new sounds a lot safer. I’m not taking it lightly though, which is why I’m trying to learn as much as possible before committing. 

 

I agree with Alan De E's comments. When I worked at Thames and Kennet Marina and we sold new Liverpool boats (three or four a week) it was just like selling new houses. Every single one handed over came back with a long list of snags to be fixed. Plus about one every six months was returned as 'not fit for purpose'. Often when we accidentally sold one to a solicitor.

 

The Aqualine boats from Poland however, were the exact opposite. Almost perfect, hardly any complaints at all. Mind you they were almost twice the price of a Liverpool boat. This was all 20+ years ago. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Point being, a second hand boat especially a liveaboard, will be in regular use and have had all the snags ironed out as far as is possible. Boats like houses have stuff go wrong with them all the time. It's a constant treadmill keeping everything fixed and in good order, but ten times faster than with a house!

 

 

 

 

[GUMPY]

18 minutes ago, Mr.T said:

In my mind buying a new boat with all the electrics, plumbing, heating done by professionals should guarantee a problem free boat for at least a few years.

🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂

 

You may think that but reality is somewhat different.

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

8 minutes ago, Mr.T said:

Sorry but this just doesn’t make sense to me. If that boat you’re talking about was ‘better than most’ and not able to enter the water then surely the boat builder who built it is not a boat builder at all and shouldn’t be in business. 
Are you suggesting that all new boats come with problems, or is this just one a few minority boats?

In my mind buying a new boat with all the electrics, plumbing, heating done by professionals should guarantee a problem free boat for at least a few years. But again I could be wrong, which is why I’m here 🙂 

 

I am sorry, but this reply is on par with your comment about potential gas problems. It is not supported out many years of experience of many different people. My personal view is just go ahead as you wish and if it all ends up in tears why should I or any other member worry.

 

What you don't seem to have grasped is that the narrowboat industry is by and large small companies or one man bands building each boat as a one-off. Even the"big boys" are not much better. There are some real horror stories out there - even to the extent of builders liquidating to avoid paying court imposed penalties.  All but a very few build down to a cost to a varying degree, so it is totally different to say the car or domestic appliance industries.

 

Please take note of all you have been told. No one here has anything to gain by feeding you duff information and when you are told the same by more than one member there is an excellent chance that what they say is true.

 

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

25 minutes ago, Mr.T said:

Sorry but this just doesn’t make sense to me. If that boat you’re talking about was ‘better than most’ and not able to enter the water then surely the boat builder who built it is not a boat builder at all and shouldn’t be in business. 
Are you suggesting that all new boats come with problems, or is this just one a few minority boats?

In my mind buying a new boat with all the electrics, plumbing, heating done by professionals should guarantee a problem free boat for at least a few years. But again I could be wrong, which is why I’m here 🙂 

All new boats have snagging problems even the £300k narrowboats, that’s why a lot of the builders want them close at hand for the first couple of weeks, so they can sort them. Some boats have major snagging issues, some minor.

  I wouldn’t dismiss 2nd hand boats, especially if your thinking about spending over £200K on your first boat new build. You may not take to it, your circumstances could change, making living on board totally the wrong choice. You can loose a lot of money on new builds. So have a look at 2nd hand, you don’t need to spend a fortune to get what suits your needs compared to new. You may be pleasantly surprised to whats available with no waiting👍

Edited August 10, 2023 by BoatinglifeupNorth