Help understanding energy systems

[nb Innisfree]

47 minutes ago, Mr.T said:

Thanks all, I didn’t know how important inverters and alternators were. I don’t think I’ll be using a lot of electricity, typical use would be something like 15-20 mins of air fryer and maybe one hob, 2-3 hours of tv or laptop use and a shower. And there would be washing machine use once or twice a week. But maybe this is considered a lot of use on a boat?

I’m not completely against having gas on board, would just rather it wasn’t there so it eliminates the obvious potential problems. But if it makes sense to have it on board then I’ll definitely consider it, thanks.

Full time ccing on Innisfree we used a minimum of 140ah daily (@ 12v) on average it was roughly 170ah (w/m) similar to your predicted usage but gas cooking (9kg bottle pm) generous usage no skimping.

Don't underestimate, 100ah is difficult to achieve if you want to live comfortably. 

[jonathanA]

42 minutes ago, Peanut said:

It is often suggested, that if you don't have much experience of boats, then It is good to hire one for a week or two to get some idea of what it is going to be like. Some say do it in the winter when it is cold, wet and the sun doesn't shine. That way you wouldn't be buying a used boat with issues.

this is so true.   I have seen a number of newbies buy a brand new boat, tell me how pleased they are with the stuff they have had the builder install, one, who was my neighbour in a marina had a huge telly + full surround sound on a NB. we enjoyed many a sound track from his movie watching....  he went on one 3 week trip to Llangollen and said it was boring 'it was just miles of countryside with nothing to do'  and came back with a bent propeller, did one winter and sold up never to be seen again.  somewhat costly I suspect...   

 

 

[blackrose]

I've got 910w of panels.

 

In summer I'm totally off grid and last winter I was probably about 80% off grid and that's as a liveaboard working from home on a laptop which is on all day. I use a small 1600w automatic washing machine a couple of times/week occasional microwave and watching far too much TV.

 

My inverter is on 24/7 as I have a mains fridge. But I live on my own and I can angle my panels. That last point (contrary to what many on here who've never tried it will tell you) makes a massive difference in winter.

Edited August 9, 2023 by blackrose

[magnetman]

24 minutes ago, system 4-50 said:

I disagree strongly.  Bow lockers for gas are a pain.

 

I never had any problems with them. 

 

Of course when I had my lovely narrow boat I was in my 20s and early 30s so fitness was not.an issue. 

 

It isn't that difficult to deal with. If you can do a canal lock then you can get a gas bottle in and out of a bow locker surely. 

 

 

I believe if you need such additions as cratch covers and god forbid pram hoods then you are on the wrong sort of boat. 

 

 

[blackrose]

1 minute ago, magnetman said:

 

I never had any problems with them. 

 

 

Me neither.

[magnetman]

 

 

It is tricky to put the gas anywhere else on a trad (which is the only type of narrow boat worth considering for living on). I suppose a special dedicated cupboard in the side of the engine bay area could work. 

 

[blackrose]

1 hour ago, Mr.T said:

I’m not completely against having gas on board, would just rather it wasn’t there so it eliminates the obvious potential problems. 

 

What problems? They can't be that obvious because I've been living with safe gas systems on boats for the past 20 years and I don't know what you mean.

3 minutes ago, magnetman said:

 

 

It is tricky to put the gas anywhere else on a trad (which is the only type of narrow boat worth considering for living on). I suppose a special dedicated cupboard in the side of the engine bay area could work. 

 

 

I disagree. Any stern type is worth considering for living on and indeed many people do live on many different types of boats.

[magnetman]

It is a good question..

 

What problems? 

 

 

Canal boats are completely different to sea going vessels. If you are at sea and have a fire on the boat it can be incredibly serious. You could end up swimming. Some people think it is a risk not worth taking. Most fires will be caused by the flame on the cooker not the fact it is a gas installation.

 

On canal boats if you got a fire caused by flame due to inattention then you can just get off the boat if it becomes awkward. 

 

The fact is that gas just isn't dangerous. 

 

Fire is dangerous. 

[Mr.T]

1 hour ago, magnetman said:

Out of interest have you spent a lot of time on narrow boats? Have you lived beside a public footpath before where people are inches from your windows? 

 

It can come as quite a shock if you are used to having some space around you. I lived on narrow boats for 12 yars continuously which was enough and I now have wider boats although they have less overall space than a good sized nb. There is something 'heavy' about the living space in a narrow boat. 

 

Also do you intend to live on the boat 'forever'? My mum got all enthusiastic about living on a narrow boat and she did it for over a decade having sold her property interests. Then later in life she found herself needing to return to land housing. Of course all she could afford was a tiny little flat when previously we had a nice house.

 

Property ownership is hassle but it is also security. You won't get basic fundamental security on a boat tied to a public towpath. It won't happen..

 

Boats are great, I have always lived on boats and always will but jumping in at the deep end is very risky. 

 

Good luck with it - just a little reminder of reality. 

 

Also fit gas on the boat ! 

 

Many thanks, I’m definitely up for understanding the reality of living on the canal. And it’s not something I’m taking lightly, I tend to weigh up the pros and cons on a daily basis. As a couple of others have mentioned I will be hiring a boat for at least a couple of weeks before committing to buying one. And no I don’t have much experience on narrowboats at all, I’m ex navy but that probably doesn’t help 🙂

No idea if it will be forever to be honest but I guess if it’s not for me after a few years, I can sell a fairly new boat and get back on the property market.

[Mr.T]

35 minutes ago, blackrose said:

I've got 910w of panels.

 

In summer I'm totally off grid and last winter I was probably about 80% off grid and that's as a liveaboard working from home on a laptop which is on all day. I use a small 1600w automatic washing machine a couple of times/week occasional microwave and watching far too much TV.

 

My inverter is on 24/7 as I have a mains fridge. But I live on my own and I can angle my panels. That last point (contrary to what many on here who've never tried it will tell you) makes a massive difference in winter.

Thanks, so how do you live 80% off grid in the winter? Surely it’s not just from your solar?

[magnetman]

One way of doing it is to use a lot less power in winter. The other way is to put a lot more diesel through your engine.

 

 

[Mr.T]

26 minutes ago, magnetman said:

It is a good question..

 

What problems? 

 

 

Canal boats are completely different to sea going vessels. If you are at sea and have a fire on the boat it can be incredibly serious. You could end up swimming. Some people think it is a risk not worth taking. Most fires will be caused by the flame on the cooker not the fact it is a gas installation.

 

On canal boats if you got a fire caused by flame due to inattention then you can just get off the boat if it becomes awkward. 

 

The fact is that gas just isn't dangerous. 

 

Fire is dangerous. 

Apologies, I should have said problem not problems. Which would be a gas explosion.

I fully understand that this is unlikely if it is done and maintained properly but I’d rather not have it on board if possible but seems like the overwhelming majority think gas is needed.

[Mr.T]

2 minutes ago, magnetman said:

One way of doing it is to use a lot less power in winter. The other way is to put a lot more diesel through your engine.

 

 

I think I’m understanding, so a good alternator for the engine and using more diesel in the winter would generate enough electricity through the winter? With the addition of well placed solar and maybe some gas as a back up for cooking?

[Jen-in-Wellies]

3 minutes ago, Mr.T said:

Thanks, so how do you live 80% off grid in the winter? Surely it’s not just from your solar?

It isn't really possible, without running the engine, or a generator to make up the solar short fall. Most likely fossil fuel, or possibly bio diesel run. The amount of energy from the sun, per day, falls by roughly an order of magnitude between mid summer and mid winter. A combination of shorter days and the sun being much lower in the sky. Boats, especially narrowboats, don't have enough surface area available to run a modernish life style entirely from solar power, all year through. If that's what you want, you need a larger area of land, or have access to grid electricity in winter, which is already around 50% renewable (including nukes).

2 minutes ago, Mr.T said:

Apologies, I should have said problem not problems. Which would be a gas explosion.

I fully understand that this is unlikely if it is done and maintained properly but I’d rather not have it on board if possible but seems like the overwhelming majority think gas is needed.

It's a vanishingly rare (as is the boat) possibility on a properly installed boat gas system. The advantages of using gas for cooking are overwhelming, which is why gas free boats are so rare. There are decades of experience and regulations ensuring that boat explosions don't happen.

[magnetman]

The gas explosion thing is a red herring.  

 

Of course there will be occasional incidents but that is the nature of the world. 

 

Would you choose not to live on a boat because occasionally people on boats fall in the water and die? 

Maybe it is best not to drive a car because of road accidents. Don't have a kitchen because so many people have domestic accidents in kitchens. 

 

Definitely don't have a sharp knife. 

 

 

A well made gas system is basically safe and will never cause any problem for the vast majority of people. 

 

 

[Mr.T]

1 hour ago, MtB said:

 

Not if you get a deck board and cratch cover. 13kg bottles in a bow locker become a right pain to live with and change.

 

Secondly, get as much solar as you can fit. I've never heard a boater say "I have too much solar, I'm thinking of getting rid of some of the panels." 

 

Finally congrats on electing to get a narrowboat. 95% of newbies seem to go for a fat bustud these days, out of sheer ignorance. 

 

 

P.S. yo keep mentioning a shower when thelectrics are being discussed. Please tell us you aren't planning an electric shower...

Many thanks for the solar advice. Yes I’ve been assuming an electric shower…. Whats the better alternative?

[Jen-in-Wellies]

Just now, Mr.T said:

Many thanks for the solar advice. Yes I’ve been assuming an electric shower…. Whats the better alternative?

Calorifier heated from the engine, and/or a diesel heater, or solid fuel stove back boiler. Instantaneous gas water heater. An electric shower of the sort that people have in houses is almost totally impractical.

Heating anything by electricity, water, space, on a boat is almost impossible to make up, except using excess solar for heating water in high summer. Doing it uses hugely more electrical energy than anything else.

For example, using 1kW for an hour on a stove will take 100Ahrs from a 12V battery set up. On most boats, a fridge is reckoned to be the most heavy electrical consumer, but that might use less than half this amount over the course of a day. That 100Ahrs is going to have to be replaced some how, either from solar, or engine running.

Do a search on other threads. It is very common for people coming to boats with no experience to have no appreciation for how much effort is involved in being your own electricity company. People wanting electric everything and no gas is very common, but it doesn't work without a lot of extra money spent and compromises made.

[Mr.T]

Ok so if I had a gas set up for cooking use in winter would this then solve any issues of generating enough electricity for other appliances using the engine and lithium batteries?

And as many solar panels as possible would see me through the summer months?

[Jen-in-Wellies]

2 minutes ago, Mr.T said:

Ok so if I had a gas set up for cooking use in winter would this then solve any issues of generating enough electricity for other appliances using the engine and lithium batteries?

And as many solar panels as possible would see me through the summer months?

If you have gas in winter, why not use it for summer too? What's the point of having two methods of cooking, other than redundancy? Lots of solar is good. You still need to be able to cruise your boat, so handrails need to be kept clear and a lot of people like having access to the roof.

[Mr.T]

3 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Calorifier heated from the engine, and/or a diesel heater, or solid fuel stove back boiler. Instantaneous gas water heater. An electric shower of the sort that people have in houses is almost totally impractical.

Heating anything by electricity, water, space, on a boat is almost impossible to make up, except using excess solar for heating water in high summer. Doing it uses hugely more electrical energy than anything else.

For example, using 1kW for an hour on a stove will take 100Ahrs from a 12V battery set up. On most boats, a fridge is reckoned to be the most heavy electrical consumer, but that might use less than half this amount over the course of a day. That 100Ahrs is going to have to be replaced some how, either from solar, or engine running.

Do a search on other threads. It is very common for people coming to boats with no experience to have no appreciation for how much effort is involved in being your own electricity company. People wanting electric everything and no gas is very common, but it doesn't work without a lot of extra money spent and compromises made.

Ok thanks, so during summer hot water is heated from the engine through a colorifier or maybe solar and during winter it would be heated through the diesel back boiler stove? I think it’s all starting to make sense 🙂

[BEngo]

An electric shower is a non starter.  A typical shower is at least 9.2 Kw, and you really need more when the water tank is cold. That is approaching 1000 Amps from your battery which is challenging in battery and wiring terms! Not to mention the cost of a suitable inverter, which will only be needed 20-30 minutes a day max. 

 

Either an engine/space heating warmed twin coil calorifier or an instantaneous water heater.  Morco/Rinnai/Vaillant type.

 

N

[Jen-in-Wellies]

1 minute ago, Mr.T said:

Ok thanks, so during summer hot water is heated from the engine through a colorifier or maybe solar and during winter it would be heated through the diesel back boiler stove? I think it’s all starting to make sense 🙂

Or a solid fuel stove back boiler, or a diesel heater.

 

[blackrose]

1 minute ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

If you have gas in winter, why not use it for summer too? What's the point of having two methods of cooking, other than redundancy? Lots of solar is good. You still need to be able to cruise your boat, so handrails need to be kept clear and a lot of people like having access to the roof.

 

Yes covering the roof is a bad idea in my opinion. It really depends on how you cruise. If you've got crew and you don't use your roof in locks then fine, cover the roof. As a single hander access to the roof is essential for me.

[Mr.T]

2 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

If you have gas in winter, why not use it for summer too? What's the point of having two methods of cooking, other than redundancy? Lots of solar is good. You still need to be able to cruise your boat, so handrails need to be kept clear and a lot of people like having access to the roof.

Good point, I’m only assuming that I might generate enough electricity through solar to not have to use the gas in summer. And I suppose it would be free electricity that way.

[magnetman]

The point surely must be that living on a boat 'off grid' is never going to be in any way remotely similar to living in a house or apartment. There just isn't a comparison. You can't have the same lifestyle. 

 

We haven't even got into the fact that lavatory waste in houses goes downwards whereas in boats it must at some time go upwards. Gravity is a real bummer. 

 

Electric and gas is like a walk in the park on a nice day compared with the lavatory !