Help understanding energy systems

[blackrose]

4 minutes ago, Rob-M said:

Marina mooring with shore power hookup gets you through winter.

 

Yes. Learning to liveaboard is a steep enough learning curve for someone new to boats as it is without then adding CCing through the winter. Lots of people do it of course and I've done it over a number of winters myself, but it's enough to break many a newbie.

[Mr.T]

13 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Buy a second hand boat and you can move aboard the same day as you hand over the cash. Buy a new boat and you will probably be waiting 2 years or so from when you sign the contract to when you take delivery. Where are you going to live for that 2 years?

Unless you buy one of the boats which are built on spec and sold ready to go. But then you will have hardly any choice of layout, equipment, style etc.

That's what newbies always think. But unlike being in a house where it just comes from a wire in the street every, every bit of electricity you use on a boat (if you do not have mains hookup) has to be generated on board.

And I imagine you will want a fridge as well, which typically consumes as much power as everything else added together.

And just like buying a car, the value of a new boat drops significantly as soon as you take it away, whereas a second hand boat will be cheaper in the first place and hold its value much better. The drop in value of a new boat could be quite a hit if you find out living afloat is not for you.

Wow 2 years? From the couple of boat builder’s I’ve spoken to they said the turn around time for a sailaway lined was 10-12 weeks. One could get started pretty much straight away and the other has a 5 month wait. Completely understand there will be a loss from buying new but from what I’ve seen online, boats that are a few years old seem to be quite expensive still? Oh and I’m able to move in with some family whilst the build is being done.

And yep I do want a fridge, which I haven’t mentioned. Would that be doable with a good set up of lithium batteries?

[BEngo]

Be a he-man.  Go for an Elsan Bristol.

 

N

[nicknorman]

9 minutes ago, Mr.T said:

Thanks all. Can I get a general opinion on what the best energy set up is for a  comfortable ish winter when off grid? I’ve got a much better idea now but would be good to know how people are actually doing it. Is it basically having a good alternator and running the engine to use appliances and also topping up the lithium batteries? And of course just being more conscious of how much energy is being used.

In winter, heating is the most important thing. A diesel stove is cleaner and easier but a coal stove is cheaper to run and has some “character”. And it can be easier to get another bag of coal than a fill of red diesel.

 

We have a diesel heater as well, runs the radiators, which is useful in spring/autumn when it’s a bit chilly of an evening or morning, but warm during the day so you don’t really want to light the stove.

 

As to the lithium battery thing, people have issues with adapting established installations set up for lead acid, to lithium. However if you are starting from scratch then you can design the system from the outset to work optimally with lithium. If you need external advice during build (because your average boat builder doesn’t understand these things) I’d recommend Ed Shiers of Four Counties Marine Services - he knows his stuff.

 

If you get a decent modern engine such as a Beta 43 it comes with a big alternator and the option for a travelpower which gives you up to 3.5kW extra at mains voltage. We can use the Combi inverter charger fed from the travelpower to increase the charge current to about 200A. So we can put a generous day’s worth of power back into the lithium batteries, in a hour of engine running. Obviously that would be less time if we had solar.

[blackrose]

22 minutes ago, Mr.T said:

And yep I do want a fridge, which I haven’t mentioned. Would that be doable with a good set up of lithium batteries?

 

My batteries are the old fashioned flooded open lead acid, but they're Trojans which are highly regarded. They accept a higher voltage than most sealed batteries and in return provide a marginally better performance providing you maintain them which means topping them up with fluid every few months. 

 

If I were starting again I'd do a lot of reading on here and elsewhere and install lithium batteries but I can't really justify updating not only the batteries but from what I have understood half of my electrical equipment as well, when it all works perfectly well for my needs.

 

And yes, there's no reason for you not to have a fridge but then you have more choices to make between an expensive 12v or a cheap mains fridge. My small mains larder style fridge is running all the time from the inverter/panels and it doesn't use a lot of power even including the quiescent load of the inverter (0.6A). I don't bother switching it off at night or in winter.

 

 

Edited August 9, 2023 by blackrose

[David Mack]

7 minutes ago, Mr.T said:

Wow 2 years? From the couple of boat builder’s I’ve spoken to they said the turn around time for a sailaway lined was 10-12 weeks.

I was thinking of a completed boat, built to your specification. The time will vary from one boatbuilder to another, and be aware that late delivery is an endemic problem in the industry ("boatyard time"), so it won't be as quick as you may be told at the outset.

A lined sailaway is far from a completed boat. So you will initially be camping on board a boat with no facilities, and trying to fit it out and live on it at the same time. That is not a recipe for an easy life. Especially if you also have to do a day job 5 days a week.

How are you going to get materials delivered? Where are you going to store them until incorporated in the fitout? How are you going to power the power tools you will use in fitting out? How will you keep your living space clean while all this is going on?

[BEngo]

17 minutes ago, Mr.T said:

Wow 2 years? From the couple of boat builder’s I’ve spoken to they said the turn around time for a sailaway lined was 10-12 weeks. One could get started pretty much straight away and the other has a 5 month wait. Completely understand there will be a loss from buying new but from what I’ve seen online, boats that are a few years old seem to be quite expensive still? Oh and I’m able to move in with some family whilst the build is being done.

And yep I do want a fridge, which I haven’t mentioned. Would that be doable with a good set up of lithium batteries?

There is a long, hard and bloody road from a sailaway to a finished boat if you DIY.  There are rules and requirements all over the place.  Start by googling Recreational Craft Regulations and searching on here.  Then move on to the Boat Safety Scheme requirements.  Then look at the GSIUR.  Between them your insomnia will be cured forever.  Then you can start work.

 

Your post gave the impression that you were looking at  builder completed boat.  Most builders can turn out a lot more shells and sailaways than finished boats and a two year wait for a decent fit out is common.  Top builders have even longer lists, and smaller throughput. Also, in a fit out what you can have is what you cabnpersude the fitter out to deliver, and which is in his comfort zone.  Lithium batteries, done properly, remain well outside the experience of most boat fitters.

 

Yes you can have a fridge.  We do.  Only buy a compressor model.  Gas ones are very inefficient.  Expect that, over a 24 hour period it will use more electricity than just about anything else on the boat.  Say 50 Ah a day in warm to hot weather.  Solar is really helpful ( in Spring- Autumn).  Some people turn them off in winter.

 

N

[Mr.T]

11 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

In winter, heating is the most important thing. A diesel stove is cleaner and easier but a coal stove is cheaper to run and has some “character”. And it can be easier to get another bag of coal than a fill of red diesel.

 

We have a diesel heater as well, runs the radiators, which is useful in spring/autumn when it’s a bit chilly of an evening or morning, but warm during the day so you don’t really want to light the stove.

 

As to the lithium battery thing, people have issues with adapting established installations set up for lead acid, to lithium. However if you are starting from scratch then you can design the system from the outset to work optimally with lithium. If you need external advice during build (because your average boat builder doesn’t understand these things) I’d recommend Ed Shiers of Four Counties Marine Services - he knows his stuff.

 

If you get a decent modern engine such as a Beta 43 it comes with a big alternator and the option for a travelpower which gives you up to 3.5kW extra at mains voltage. We can use the Combi inverter charger fed from the travelpower to increase the charge current to about 200A. So we can put a generous day’s worth of power back into the lithium batteries, in a hour of engine running. Obviously that would be less time if we had solar.

Many thanks, that’s really helpful

[blackrose]

I think the OP's mind must be well and truly blown by now...

[David Mack]

7 minutes ago, BEngo said:

Then look at the GSIUR. 

Well if he's going gas-free he can skip that bit!😉

[Mr.T]

6 minutes ago, David Mack said:

I was thinking of a completed boat, built to your specification. The time will vary from one boatbuilder to another, and be aware that late delivery is an endemic problem in the industry ("boatyard time"), so it won't be as quick as you may be told at the outset.

A lined sailaway is far from a completed boat. So you will initially be camping on board a boat with no facilities, and trying to fit it out and live on it at the same time. That is not a recipe for an easy life. Especially if you also have to do a day job 5 days a week.

How are you going to get materials delivered? Where are you going to store them until incorporated in the fitout? How are you going to power the power tools you will use in fitting out? How will you keep your living space clean while all this is going on?

Apologies, I should’ve been abit clearer. I work in construction so fitting the boat out will be fairly straight forward. I don’t plan to live on board whilst doing the work. My plan would be to take a month, maybe two off work to complete the boat internally and carry on living with family. I think I would have the boat on land whilst this is being done so I’m assuming there would be power available? I have a large van so I’ll be able to get materials that way. There are parts of the fit out that I wont do such as installing the power systems, so I’ll be looking for someone local or willing to travel who knows what they’re doing with that sort of thing. I’ll be in the Reading area if you know anyone. Many thanks for the post, all very valid points which is what I’m looking for.

[Mr.T]

10 minutes ago, blackrose said:

I think the OP's mind must be well and truly blown by now...

I’ve learned alot. You’ve all been really helpful

[David Mack]

13 minutes ago, BEngo said:

Start by googling Recreational Craft Regulations and searching on here.

Yes. Despite the promised post Br***t 'bonfire of red tape' the RCR still applies, and as a self-fitter-outer you become the boatbuilder for legal purposes. Which means you have to build fully in compliance with the RCR and get the boat certified as such (which will cost), otherwise you cannot legally sell the boat (or even offer it for sale) until 5 years after it has been completed. 

6 minutes ago, Mr.T said:

My plan would be to take a month, maybe two off work to complete the boat internally and carry on living with family.

Oh the naive optimism!

(If it takes a professional boatbuilder with all the accumulated knowledge, materials, tools, workshop facilities, established supplier relationships, colleagues to help out etc. up to two years to do the job, how long will it take you, notwithstanding your construction experience?)

[blackrose]

I fitted out a boat which one of my neighbours once sarcastically commented "was already fitted out" when I started.

 

It was a sailaway plus, so already sprayfoamed & lined with a mains ring and some of the 12v and plumbing already installed. Nevertheless it took me a very long time to finish it - not that it's ever really finished. 

 

When I started I stored a load of my stuff in my dad's garage, telling him it would be there for 3 months. 18 months later he asked me when I was going to clear it out. I reckon it took me 3 years to get it to a completed state, but to be fair I was camping onboard from the start and studying/working at the same time.

[Mr.T]

5 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Yes. Despite the promised post Br***t 'bonfire of red tape' the RCR still applies, and as a self-fitter-outer you become the boatbuilder for legal purposes. Which means you have to build fully in compliance with the RCR and get the boat certified as such (which will cost), otherwise you cannot legally sell the boat (or even offer it for sale) until 5 years after it has been completed. 

So does this apply to myself installing the galley, installing the bathroom suite, building bedroom furniture, laying flooring and painting? Any solar, diesel stove, gas work would be done by a professional.

[Jen-in-Wellies]

4 minutes ago, Mr.T said:

So does this apply to myself installing the galley, installing the bathroom suite, building bedroom furniture, laying flooring and painting? Any solar, diesel stove, gas work would be done by a professional.

You would still be responsible for getting the professionals work certified. Even your own work, installing various fixtures and fittings, could affect the boats stability and would need to be compliant, for example. Is the sink drain you've put through the hull side sufficiently high above the water line?

[ditchcrawler]

4 hours ago, Mr.T said:

Thanks all, I didn’t know how important inverters and alternators were. I don’t think I’ll be using a lot of electricity, typical use would be something like 15-20 mins of air fryer and maybe one hob, 2-3 hours of tv or laptop use and a shower. And there would be washing machine use once or twice a week. But maybe this is considered a lot of use on a boat?

I’m not completely against having gas on board, would just rather it wasn’t there so it eliminates the obvious potential problems. But if it makes sense to have it on board then I’ll definitely consider it, thanks.

Thats about my usage and I need to run the engine for 2 hours every day to cover it. If you really want to go that way consider a cocooned diesel generator 

[Mr.T]

15 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Yes. Despite the promised post Br***t 'bonfire of red tape' the RCR still applies, and as a self-fitter-outer you become the boatbuilder for legal purposes. Which means you have to build fully in compliance with the RCR and get the boat certified as such (which will cost), otherwise you cannot legally sell the boat (or even offer it for sale) until 5 years after it has been completed. 

Oh the naive optimism!

(If it takes a professional boatbuilder with all the accumulated knowledge, materials, tools, workshop facilities, established supplier relationships, colleagues to help out etc. up to two years to do the job, how long will it take you, notwithstanding your construction experience?)

Ha well I could be wrong. But I’ve been working in construction for 20 years and installed many a kitchen and bathroom so I’ve got a good idea of how long it takes. Also with painting and laying flooring. 

[GUMPY]

22 minutes ago, Mr.T said:

I work in construction so fitting the boat out will be fairly straight forward

Oh no it wont.

I added 10ft to our barge and it took a matter of a few weeks to get it to sailaway standard. Because I was working it took me 5 years to finish it and that was with me having most of the skills to do it and having access to traders to do the bits I couldn't.  This was before the RCD and similar became mandatory.

Whatever time you think it will take then treble it and you will be close.

[MtB]

1 hour ago, magnetman said:

Don't use a wok not lined with ash. 

 

Some people may baulk at the idea of transferring the solids to the fire using a bent soup ladle. 

 

Or if you do end up using a wok lined with ash for incineration, use a different wok for stir-frying your supper later in the evening.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[GUMPY]

Fitting a kitchen is childs play compared to fitting a boat.

There are no right angles and spirit levels are useless it all has to be done by eye. 

[BEngo]

10 minutes ago, Mr.T said:

Apologies, I should’ve been abit clearer. I work in construction so fitting the boat out will be fairly straight forward. 

You will not be the first to think that.  Many of the others were surprised how different it actually is from working in a house,say.

 

Typically, a fitter out will want three months to do a fit-out, more if it is out of the run of the mill stuff.   He will have all the facilities nearby.  I think you estimate is a lot short. I would plan for maybe 6 months

 I did a full fit out in evenings, weekends and holidays and it took 3 years.

You will probably have to (need to) do the job in the water, and you will find it difficult to find a mooring with power where you can fit out.  Hardstandings are scarce and if you find one it is a real bugger to shift an 8x4 sheet of 3/4 ply from the ground into a boat where the doorway is 6 ft up a ladder. Then shift it down again to adjust the shape. Marinas do not like people fitting out on their mooringsfor reasons of noise, appearance, competition with their  staff etc.

 Then you have to find professionals who will come to you.  When you want them, where you want them.  That is not simple and you can expect to wait, and to be stood up. They do exist, and Nicknorman has mentioned one good Electrics man.  Gas is harder, because you need an LPG and Marine certified filter under the Gas Safe Register.  Engine installs are a boatyard job unless you are suitably skilled.

 

 I know you have not done much boating yet, but I suggest you walk or cycle some nearby canal towpaths.  Look out for the gray-green mouldy sailaways and project boats that got started but made no further progress.  There are lots of them.  You should wonder why that is.

 

 It can be done, it is not at all easy and you will need a lot of determination and at least twice as much money and twice as much time as you planned

N

 

[blackrose]

4 minutes ago, Mr.T said:

Ha well I could be wrong. But I’ve been working in construction for 20 years and installed many a kitchen and bathroom so I’ve got a good idea of how long it takes. Also with painting and laying flooring. 

 

It's different from land based construction though. Bear that in mind. Boats flex and thermally expand contract more than a building does. For that reason you need to use flexible fixings. I knew a builder who used pinkgrip to stick his wooden battens to the steel for example. It's just not suitable on boats. Even screws can snap because of the different thermal expansion/contraction of different materials. The same guy cut a hole through his watertight bulkhead at the bottom for his toilet waste pipe to the holding tank. When I saw it I mentioned that he'd compromised the watertight integrity of his boat. Fortunately he was a welder too and patched the hole up and rerouted the pipework. His practical skills were not in doubt but as a land based builder he wasn't thinking BOAT.

3 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

I described it as making a box from the inside, never again

 

Me too. I wouldn't have the energy to do it again.

[nicknorman]

1 minute ago, Mr.T said:

Ha well I could be wrong. But I’ve been working in construction for 20 years and installed many a kitchen and bathroom so I’ve got a good idea of how long it takes. Also with painting and laying flooring. 

Unfortunately experience in housing isn’t always directly transferable to boats. As an example, the outside of a boat is made of steel often painted a darkish colour. Steel has a big coefficient of thermal expansion. Sun on one side, shadow on the other = banana. Wood doesn’t have a significant thermal expansion coefficient.  If you install a rigid interior then you have the battle between the steel and the wood. The steel wins!

[Mr.T]

Many thanks for your replies, maybe I’ll be proven wrong but the boat will be arriving lined and bulkheads built and all the tech bits will be done by professionals. So I don’t see how installing a galley and bathroom suite, laying a floor, painting and building bedroom furniture (basically a bed) will take that long. Unless there’s something I’m missing?