Electricity Posts on Visitor Moorings in Banbury

[Alway Swilby]

We have moored in the centre of Banbury and noticed the new electricity posts. They work once you have created an account with "Berth Vend", given them at least £5 then activated the particular post you are plugged into. At bit pricey at £0.95 per kwh but saves running the engine.

[StephenA]

I wonder why they didn't user MeterMacs? Seems stupid (but par for the course for CRT) to have multiple third party payment systems.

[MtB]

28 minutes ago, Alway Swilby said:

We have moored in the centre of Banbury and noticed the new electricity posts. They work once you have created an account with "Berth Vend", given them at least £5 then activated the particular post you are plugged into. At bit pricey at £0.95 per kwh but saves running the engine.

 

 

Hmmmm interesting. Once again mopping up all the oil leaking out of my supposedly restored engine, I'm toying with the idea of taking the engine out of one of mine and installing some big batteries and an electric motor. I'm not far from Banbury! 

[Alway Swilby]

39 minutes ago, StephenA said:

I wonder why they didn't user MeterMacs? Seems stupid (but par for the course for CRT) to have multiple third party payment systems.

It seems to be run by Castle Quays the shopping centre people so not CRT.

40 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

 

Hmmmm interesting. Once again mopping up all the oil leaking out of my supposedly restored engine, I'm toying with the idea of taking the engine out of one of mine and installing some big batteries and an electric motor. I'm not far from Banbury! 

Bear in mind that the cost is 95p per kwh. I don't know what other marinas charge but at our house we pay about 30p.

[StephenA]

11 minutes ago, Alway Swilby said:

It seems to be run by Castle Quays the shopping centre people so not CRT.

Bear in mind that the cost is 95p per kwh. I don't know what other marinas charge but at our house we pay about 30p.

 

I think on MeterMacs at Ladybird Mooring we might be paying 24.10 pence/kwh.

 

[MtB]

21 minutes ago, Alway Swilby said:

It seems to be run by Castle Quays the shopping centre people so not CRT.

Bear in mind that the cost is 95p per kwh. I don't know what other marinas charge but at our house we pay about 30p.

 

Well a car does about 4 miles per kWh so if a boat will too, that's a viable cost.

 

The price of a kWh in our houses is irrelevant as we can't put the kWhs in a jerry can and lug them to the boat.

 

So the price at the bollards in Banbury is competing with generating it on board using a diesel genny. And 95p is probably a whole lot cheaper than self-generating, although I've not done any calcs. Can't find my fag packet! 

 

 

Edited July 1, 2023 by MtB

[IanD]

2 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Well a car does about 4 miles per kWh so if a boat will too, that's a viable cost.

 

The price of a kWh in our houses is irrelevant as we can't put the kWhs in a jerry can and lug them to the boat.

 

So the price at the bollards in Banbury is competing with generating it on board using a diesel genny. And 95p is probably a whole lot cheaper than self-generating, although I've not done any calcs. Can't find my fag packet! 

 

 

If you're using a diesel generator I reckon you're looking at about 0.4l of fuel to generate 1kWh, so depending what you pay for diesel this should be quite a bit less than 95p/kWh.

 

But if you use the diesel propulsion engine charging via an alternator the efficiency is much lower, maybe about 1l per kWh, which as you say means a lot more than 95p/kWh.

 

All this ignores other costs like engine/generator servicing/maintenance... 🙂

[MtB]

6 minutes ago, IanD said:

But if you use the diesel propulsion engine charging via an alternator the efficiency is much lower, maybe about 1l per kWh, which as you say means a lot more than 95p/kWh.

 

No, the propulsion engine is coming out, as like I said, it leaks oil like a sieve in multiple places and still smokes like a 12 year-old behind the bike sheds despite having been rebuilt. I need something to replace it. 

 

So I'm considering say either a Gardner 2L2 or 3L2 or something along those lines, or possibly a diesel genny, electric motor and some batteries, just as an experiment. 

 

 

[IanD]

7 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

No, the propulsion engine is coming out, as like I said, it leaks oil like a sieve in multiple places and still smokes like a 12 year-old behind the bike sheds despite having been rebuilt. I need something to replace it. 

 

So I'm considering say either a Gardner 2L2 or 3L2 or something along those lines, or possibly a diesel genny, electric motor and some batteries, just as an experiment. 

 

I was only answering the question about electricity cost... 😉

 

A generator, motor, controller, batteries, BMS, solar and MPPT isn't going to be cheap unless you scrounge everything secondhand, and isn't trivial to put together -- people on here like @nicknorman have done it, but don't underestimate the size of the task or the knowledge needed. But I'm sure you know all that... 🙂

Edited July 1, 2023 by IanD

[PaulJ]

2 hours ago, Alway Swilby said:

We have moored in the centre of Banbury and noticed the new electricity posts. They work once you have created an account with "Berth Vend", given them at least £5 then activated the particular post you are plugged into. At bit pricey at £0.95 per kwh but saves running the engine.

I assume this is all done online and isn't a card you have to order/buy.

Very handy if so.

[MtB]

55 minutes ago, IanD said:

I was only answering the question about electricity cost... 😉

 

A generator, motor, controller, batteries, BMS, solar and MPPT isn't going to be cheap unless you scrounge everything secondhand, and isn't trivial to put together -- people on here like @nicknorman have done it, but don't underestimate the size of the task or the knowledge needed. But I'm sure you know all that... 🙂

 

Solar on a 45ft tug with not much roof seems hardly worth the effort. It would be diesel powered.

 

[ditchcrawler]

1 hour ago, Alway Swilby said:

 

Bear in mind that the cost is 95p per kwh. I don't know what other marinas charge but at our house we pay about 30p.

This was my latest bill at home 

 

[dmr]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

If you're using a diesel generator I reckon you're looking at about 0.4l of fuel to generate 1kWh, so depending what you pay for diesel this should be quite a bit less than 95p/kWh.

 

But if you use the diesel propulsion engine charging via an alternator the efficiency is much lower, maybe about 1l per kWh, which as you say means a lot more than 95p/kWh.

 

All this ignores other costs like engine/generator servicing/maintenance... 🙂

 

I think if you factor in servicing and eventual engine replacement then the cost just about doubles, but it was a while ago that I did that "calculation".

[matty40s]

This will be in advance of next Winters ban on solid fuel stoves , generators and running engine in the Castle Quays shopping area. 

Just surmising of course. 

[Tonka]

36 minutes ago, matty40s said:

This will be in advance of next Winters ban on solid fuel stoves , generators and running engine in the Castle Quays shopping area. 

Just surmising of course. 

they were probably put in when the hotel was built next to the canal. Probably hoping it would help people in the hotel get a good nights sleep

[mrsmelly]

15 hours ago, MtB said:

 

Solar on a 45ft tug with not much roof seems hardly worth the effort. It would be diesel powered.

 

Ahhh diesel, a good choice. Tried and tested, reliable etc etc. Much like my excellent oil fired central heating system, awesome. Just a thought as I dont know but could you run a diesel on heating oil? this something second stuff has dropped a lot in price of late so was wonderin if it would work?? about £2.50 a gallon at the moment.

[Tony Brooks]

51 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

Ahhh diesel, a good choice. Tried and tested, reliable etc etc. Much like my excellent oil fired central heating system, awesome. Just a thought as I dont know but could you run a diesel on heating oil? this something second stuff has dropped a lot in price of late so was wonderin if it would work?? about £2.50 a gallon at the moment.

 

Depends on which second or something. 28 second is paraffin, and some diesel may well run on it if you add lube oil and mix it properly (it was in the Lister SL/SR manual). 32 second is diesel but may have more sulphur and/or a lower cetane rating. Note, not 100% sure on the actual numbers, but near enough to answer. This takes no account of the UK tax and duty situation.

[Dave123]

On 01/07/2023 at 20:17, matty40s said:

This will be in advance of next Winters ban on solid fuel stoves , generators and running engine in the Castle Quays shopping area. 

Just surmising of course. 

Most boats aren't set up to be heated by electricity though? I've always thought this is a major oversight of all these schemes to make town centre moorings smoke/emission free by installing electric bollards...it might save engine or generator running to charge batteries but in the winter most emissions are stoves or diesel heaters, which won't change with electric bollards...

[Jen-in-Wellies]

10 minutes ago, Dave123 said:

Most boats aren't set up to be heated by electricity though? I've always thought this is a major oversight of all these schemes to make town centre moorings smoke/emission free by installing electric bollards...it might save engine or generator running to charge batteries but in the winter most emissions are stoves or diesel heaters, which won't change with electric bollards...

Particularly as in deep cold you need 5kW to keep a boat comfortable and a 16A bollard will supply at most a bit over 3kW. This is assuming that the mooring electrical system can supply all the bollards simultaneously with 3kW. Any water source heat pumps around that can be fitted to a boat to freeze the canal up?

[IanD]

32 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Particularly as in deep cold you need 5kW to keep a boat comfortable and a 16A bollard will supply at most a bit over 3kW. This is assuming that the mooring electrical system can supply all the bollards simultaneously with 3kW. Any water source heat pumps around that can be fitted to a boat to freeze the canal up?

Yes, but they need a minimum water intake temperature which is warmer than canal water in the depths of winter...

[ditchcrawler]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

Yes, but they need a minimum water intake temperature which is warmer than canal water in the depths of winter...

Didn't BW Scotland install heat pump heating taking heat from the canal to a service block in Scotland some years ago

 

[IanD]

11 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Didn't BW Scotland install heat pump heating taking heat from the canal to a service block in Scotland some years ago

 

I'm sure they did, maybe they used a closed brine cooling loop like ground source heatpumps do.

 

The boat one I was referring to above -- which I looked at for providing heating and aircon for my boat -- is really intended for yachts, it specifies a seawater input temperature range of 5C min in winter (heating) and 45C max in summer (aircon). Below 5C when used for heating in fresh water (canals) where it extracts heat, the water in the heat exchanger is likely to freeze. Even with a closed brine loop you'd need a *massive* skin tank to stop the canal water freezing outside the hull.

 

A pity, because it was really efficient, 4.7kW of heating/cooling with 1kW of electrical input... 😞

[nicknorman]

18 hours ago, IanD said:

I'm sure they did, maybe they used a closed brine cooling loop like ground source heatpumps do.

 

The boat one I was referring to above -- which I looked at for providing heating and aircon for my boat -- is really intended for yachts, it specifies a seawater input temperature range of 5C min in winter (heating) and 45C max in summer (aircon). Below 5C when used for heating in fresh water (canals) where it extracts heat, the water in the heat exchanger is likely to freeze. Even with a closed brine loop you'd need a *massive* skin tank to stop the canal water freezing outside the hull.

 

A pity, because it was really efficient, 4.7kW of heating/cooling with 1kW of electrical input... 😞

Although I suspect if you look closely at the specs, that degree of efficiency will only be achieved with favourable inlet temperatures - that are unlikely to be encountered in reality.

[IanD]

27 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Although I suspect if you look closely at the specs, that degree of efficiency will only be achieved with favourable inlet temperatures - that are unlikely to be encountered in reality.

Possibly -- I did look into the data sheet in detail and it doesn't say what the inlet and outlet temperatures are. However given that it's specifically for boats I would expect there's a standard test condition for inlet temperature which you'd hope would be realistic...

 

Also that efficiency is not dissimilar to what ground source heat pumps achieve, with a ground temperature which you'd think was similar. Air source heat pumps have problems in winter when the air temperature drops below freezing because this drops efficiency and can lead to icing up, neither should be the case here.

 

Anyway the problem remains that they won't work in canals in winter, which is why I decided not to use one for heating and aircon...

[Creaking Gate]

On 01/07/2023 at 15:54, StephenA said:

I wonder why they didn't user MeterMacs? Seems stupid (but par for the course for CRT) to have multiple third party payment systems.

They are on meter macs platform.  Same provider.   

 

The unit costs probably includes allowance for ongoing maintenance and the inevitable breakdowns and the user misuse, standing charges, portal access etc.  

Edited July 5, 2023 by Creaking Gate