How do you not get scammed?

[Barneyp]

I think the most important thing to avoid being scammed is to judge the person, ask questions about the boat - it doesn't matter if your not technically proficient enough to fully understand the answer, does it sound like they know this boat. 

And dont be afraid to walk away, when I was buying (definitely at the lower end of the market) I walked away from what might have been the bargain of the century because something didn't feel right, quite possibly I was wrong and the seller was legit but I didn't want to risk it.

One way to confirm a sellers story is to search their Facebook profile, does it show pictures of them with the boat, also look on Facebook groups - are they a member and do their comments support the story they tell you of their boat ownership. Also ask if they are on this or other forums and see if their posts match up with what they are telling you- harder on a forum as most people don't use their real name.

Obviously not everyone use FB or forums so won't always work.

Edited April 16, 2023 by Barneyp

[MtB]

1 hour ago, Barneyp said:

One way to confirm a sellers story is to search their Facebook profile, does it show pictures of them with the boat,

 

 

And if like me, they don't really 'do' facebook, an alternative reassurance occurs to me. Ask them to show you a selection of photos of their boat in various locations over the years of their ownership. I'm sure we all take photos of our boat from time to time when out. 

 

Don't we? 

 

 

[agg221]

7 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

 

And if like me, they don't really 'do' facebook, an alternative reassurance occurs to me. Ask them to show you a selection of photos of their boat in various locations over the years of their ownership. I'm sure we all take photos of our boat from time to time when out. 

 

Don't we? 

 

 

It gets a bit more difficult when they haven't owned it for long. Some people do buy boats and fairly rapidly decide it's not for them.

 

It's another good thought though - there is no absolute about this; the aim is to give yourself enough confidence that you are making a legitimate purchase and that is usually through a body of evidence more than a single piece of information.

 

The point was well made above that there is far more uncertainty over condition than over title. Even a survey may not pick this up entirely, and in a fast moving, rising market a survey can be a difficult thing to get, as someone else may well buy the boat you want without one before you get the chance. I don't think the market has really worked out a way around managing this risk.

 

Alec

[BilgePump]

Some adverts on the web scream scam. Think of the ebay ad with 2 pictures. One is of a boat listed at a fraction of value and the other a nondescript gmail address. The description tells you to contact them. The account has 100% feedback on 600 trades over ten years. However, they also now seem to have a thousand insanely priced classic cars, caravans, motorhomes, motorbikes etc for sale. In this instance a legitimate account has been hacked and the hacker batch uploaded their current 'inventory'. In the past I've actually seen a legit ad and a scam one for the same boat running on ebay at the same time.

[Steilsteven]

I find the thought of buying a boat in this country and parting with huge amounts of money to be thoroughly scary since buying Petra in the Netherlands and how secure it was there.

Over there buying a boat is much like buying a house as boats are registered with the land registry, and like buying a house the sale requires both parties to employ a notary. Both parties have to provide proof of identity and, once checks have been carried out, a deed is produced. The deed is forwarded to the Kadaster ( land registry ) who then forwards a registration certificate to the new owner and the previous owner's details are removed from the registry.The notary handles the deposit and final payment. 

 

Keith

 

 

[Captain Pegg]

7 hours ago, MtB said:

 

 

And if like me, they don't really 'do' facebook, an alternative reassurance occurs to me. Ask them to show you a selection of photos of their boat in various locations over the years of their ownership. I'm sure we all take photos of our boat from time to time when out. 

 

Don't we? 

 

 

I’ve got a photo of one of yours.

[MtB]

1 hour ago, Captain Pegg said:

I’ve got a photo of one of yours.

 

 

Oh dear how embarrassing.

 

Oh, you mean boat....

 

 

[Wanderer Vagabond]

9 hours ago, MtB said:

 

 

And if like me, they don't really 'do' facebook, an alternative reassurance occurs to me. Ask them to show you a selection of photos of their boat in various locations over the years of their ownership. I'm sure we all take photos of our boat from time to time when out. 

 

Don't we? 

 

 

I think I've got more photos from the early years of having the boat, less from later years. Although I could direct them to my really boring blog which will show them where the boat has been moored for every night that I've had it ( I just wanted to remember where all the good (and bad) moorings were).

[enigmatic]

On 14/04/2023 at 21:05, Captain Pegg said:

Genuine brokers/dealers/sellers:

 

Rugby Boats

ABNB

Tollhouse

ABC (multiple sites)

Lakeland Leisure Boat Sales (multiple sites including Great Haywood)

Great Haywood Boat Sales (multiple sites not including Great Haywood)

Whilton

Venetian

Virginia Currer/High Line

Norbury Wharf

Black Prince, ABC and Anglo-Welsh + Others (for ex-hire boats)

Ashwood

WFBC

 

There are others and I've doubtless missed a big one off the list. Plus I think plenty of marinas that sell boats locally even if they don't have a fully fledged broker/dealer arm.

 

ETA - I overlooked Norton Canes (at Glascote). Not big perhaps but certainly a seller of top end boats. And Braunston Marina.

 

This would be a good list for a website FAQ

 

Can add Alvecote/Narrowcraft, Aqueduct, Aquavista (multiple sites), David Mawby, Nationwide (Thorne), Tingdene (multiple sites), Weltonfield and Wincham Wharf as relatively busy operations. , 

 

-

 

Have to say that the only circumstance in which I would ever consider trading a boat for a holdall full of cash rather than a bank transfer would be if I didn't own the boat so cared more about being untraceable than if the money was real...

Edited April 16, 2023 by enigmatic

[Lily Rose]

It seems that Great Haywood Boat Sales no longer trade under that name, it's now Nationwide Boat Sales.

[enigmatic]

1 hour ago, Lily Rose said:

It seems that Great Haywood Boat Sales no longer trade under that name, it's now Nationwide Boat Sales.

So to avoid confusion with Lakeland at Great Haywood, they renamed themselves with a name associated with another established broker?!🤪

[Dav and Pen]

17 hours ago, Steilsteven said:

I find the thought of buying a boat in this country and parting with huge amounts of money to be thoroughly scary since buying Petra in the Netherlands and how secure it was there.

Over there buying a boat is much like buying a house as boats are registered with the land registry, and like buying a house the sale requires both parties to employ a notary. Both parties have to provide proof of identity and, once checks have been carried out, a deed is produced. The deed is forwarded to the Kadaster ( land registry ) who then forwards a registration certificate to the new owner and the previous owner's details are removed from the registry.The notary handles the deposit and final payment. 

 

Keith

 

 

This is how we brought our barge in Belgium. It’s seems that following this thread and other on here that proof of boat ownership or of it being free of debt is a minefield and surely it is time for a registration scheme but not SSR as this is very loose with no checks. The monetary value of quite humble narrow boats certainly makes it open to scammers especially with the people desperate to find somewhere to live who have zero knowledge apart from watching some U tube channel. Over 60 years we brought 3 nbs and had one built, the one from British Waterways came with no paperwork except a receipt and likewise the one from Willow Wren but it was fair to assume they owned them the private one was well known and had been in the same ownership for years. 
The barge in Belgium was the only one we had a survey on as it was 80 years old and had obviously been a bit neglected as well as having little knowledge of these craft. The surveyor found some thin places and the need for a new shaft and bearings which the owner (as per the contract) has the option of putting right or we had the option of pulling out with our deposit returned. The owner had some of the work put right and a sum was deducted from the final payment for the other bits to be put right later.

[Tam & Di]

I guess one difficulty is the vast number of craft currently in existence with no paperwork - it would be a bureaucratic nightmare to set up, but I'm sure some MPs would vote for that if they found a way of profiting from it.

 

Tam

[Alan de Enfield]

26 minutes ago, Dav and Pen said:

it is time for a registration scheme but not SSR

 

I've said this for some time - but agreed the SSR (Pt3) is not what is needed, but, whilst more expensive the Ships Register Pt1  is exactly what is required and offers proof of ownership for any mortgages, records of owners, etc etc.

 

The problem for existing boats in the 'we hate paperwork' canal system will be the proof required - primarily the 'builders certificate' and original bill of sale

Other requirements can be met reasonably easily (but at some cost) I'm guess that the Radio requirement and the ITC would be classed as 'not relevant'.

 

It should be realtively simple to introduce for new-build boats from a certain date.

 

 

Part 1 registration - commercial or pleasure boats

You can use Part 1 of the register if you have either:

• a commercial boat, unless you plan to use it for fishing
• a ‘pleasure vessel’ - this means you do not make any money from it

Registering your boat on Part 1 of the register means you’ll be able to:

• get a marine mortgage against your boat
• spend more than 6 months outside the UK

It costs £153 to register for 5 years.

You’ll be sent a renewal notice when it’s time to renew. It costs £72 to renew your registration for another 5 years.

 

Before you start

You’ll need:

• the dimensions of your boat
• the previous registration details of the boat (if it’s been registered before)
• the bill of sale
• the radio signal detail - including your UK radio call sign, Maritime Mobile Service Identity (MMSI) number and International Maritime Organization (IMO) number
• the builders certificate
• a certificate of survey for tonnage and measurement
• an international tonnage certificate (ITC69)
• safety certificates

 

 

Register a boat: The UK Ship Register - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)

 

 

[Peanut]

I suspect, Caveat emptor, suits vendors and agents alike, as it absolved them of a lot of responsibility, leaving the buyer with the risk. A change in the law, unless specific, might affect other areas of sales and agency.

[Tonka]

28 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I've said this for some time - but agreed the SSR (Pt3) is not what is needed, but, whilst more expensive the Ships Register Pt1  is exactly what is required and offers proof of ownership for any mortgages, records of owners, etc etc.

 

The problem for existing boats in the 'we hate paperwork' canal system will be the proof required - primarily the 'builders certificate' and original bill of sale

Other requirements can be met reasonably easily (but at some cost) I'm guess that the Radio requirement and the ITC would be classed as 'not relevant'.

 

It should be realtively simple to introduce for new-build boats from a certain date.

 

 

Part 1 registration - commercial or pleasure boats

You can use Part 1 of the register if you have either:

• a commercial boat, unless you plan to use it for fishing
• a ‘pleasure vessel’ - this means you do not make any money from it

Registering your boat on Part 1 of the register means you’ll be able to:

• get a marine mortgage against your boat
• spend more than 6 months outside the UK

It costs £153 to register for 5 years.

You’ll be sent a renewal notice when it’s time to renew. It costs £72 to renew your registration for another 5 years.

 

Before you start

You’ll need:

• the dimensions of your boat
• the previous registration details of the boat (if it’s been registered before)
• the bill of sale
• the radio signal detail - including your UK radio call sign, Maritime Mobile Service Identity (MMSI) number and International Maritime Organization (IMO) number
• the builders certificate
• a certificate of survey for tonnage and measurement
• an international tonnage certificate (ITC69)
• safety certificates

 

 

Register a boat: The UK Ship Register - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)

 

 

and I thought SSR stood for Ship to Shore Radio and was their licence number

[Alan de Enfield]

No, all my boats are on the Small Ships Register, it does give a modicum of protection and serves as a country of registration should the EU (or HMG) ask for evidence of UK registration.

 

Even on the SSR Pt3 you should notify HMG when you sell the boat and provide details of the new owner, and return the certificate.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 17, 2023 by Alan de Enfield

[BilgePump]

2 hours ago, Tonka said:

and I thought SSR stood for Ship to Shore Radio and was their licence number

Just for confusion, SSB (Single Side Band) is a type of  marine radio with a much greater range than the standard VHF

[Alan de Enfield]

15 minutes ago, BilgePump said:

Just for confusion, SSB (Single Side Band) is a type of  marine radio with a much greater range than the standard VHF

 

Whilst Marine radios do use Sideband so do many others -"sideband" is just a form of radio wave like saying AM or FM.

 

The radio wave (is a wave shape) and there are two sidebands - Upper sideband (USB) and Lower Sideband (LSB) so you can in effect get twice as many channels out of the same frequency, when you split it to use only 'upper'or 'lower' sideband.

 

When I was 'hamming' (even on sideband CB) I'd regularly talk to radio Hams in the USA, South Africa and even Australia as the side-band signal skipped off the ionosphere.

 

G3LCR (Ham) & 1FT84 (CB DX on sideband)

Edited April 17, 2023 by Alan de Enfield

[BilgePump]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Whilst Marine radios do use Sideband so do many others -"sideband" is just a form of radio wave like saying AM or FM.

 

The radio wave (is a wave shape) and there are two sidebands - Upper sideband (USB) and Lower Sideband (LSB) so you can in effect get twice as many channels out of the same frequency, when you split it to use only 'upper'or 'lower' sideband.

 

When I was 'hamming' (even on sideband CB) I'd regularly talk to radio Hams in the USA, South Africa and even Australia as the side-band signal skipped off the ionosphere.

 

G3LCR (Ham) & 1FT84 (CB DX on sideband)

Yep, poor phrasing. Not exclusive to marine environment, just that they can often be found in offshore boats needing to communicate over longer distances. I've only had experience of VHF which is obviously limited to distances of line of sight.

[Tonka]

2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

No, all my boats are on the Small Ships Register, it does give a modicum of protection and serves as a country of registration should the EU (or HMG) ask for evidence of UK registration.

 

Even on the SSR Pt3 you should notify HMG when you sell the boat and provide details of the new owner, and return the certificate.

 

 

 

 

 

 

that is a scam. The name and address is blank

[Alan de Enfield]

11 minutes ago, BilgePump said:

Yep, poor phrasing. Not exclusive to marine environment, just that they can often be found in offshore boats needing to communicate over longer distances. I've only had experience of VHF which is obviously limited to distances of line of sight.

 

The up & coming 'in-thing' now is satellite calling - will knock SSB out of the market all together. The problem is that if treated like a VHF radio the caller will block that frequency over 'half of the world' instead of just a few square miles.

 

Satellite phones are already quite widely used on ocean going vessels.

 

 

 

 

 

9 minutes ago, Tonka said:

that is a scam. The name and address is blank

 

If you had an SSR registration then you would know the certificate doesn't have an address printed on it - just the boat owners name (in this case "Mr Yellow)

 

 

Edited April 17, 2023 by Alan de Enfield

[Canal conor]

So if you go to a brokerage from the Internet. The boat could still be a stolen boat and nobody would have picked up on this fact? 

 

It seems absurd some of the stories I'm reading. Surely there's a proper process involving checks if a business is selling on behalf of someone?? 

[Bishop Brennan]

26 minutes ago, Canal conor said:

It seems absurd some of the stories I'm reading.

Me too. I'd never considered outstanding finance on boats. Surely the debt is attached to the person who borrowed rather than the boat?

[David Mack]

57 minutes ago, Canal conor said:

So if you go to a brokerage from the Internet. The boat could still be a stolen boat and nobody would have picked up on this fact? 

 

It seems absurd some of the stories I'm reading. Surely there's a proper process involving checks if a business is selling on behalf of someone?? 

Brokers will make what checks they can, and may turn down boats where they are not satisfied, but at the end of the day they are only acting as agent for the vendor, and the legal responsibility rests with the vendor.

39 minutes ago, Bishop Brennan said:

Me too. I'd never considered outstanding finance on boats. Surely the debt is attached to the person who borrowed rather than the boat?

That depends on the terms of the finance. But marine mortgages are rare for narrowboats and most boat finance is a personal debt which remains with the vendor.