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How do you not get scammed?


Bishop Brennan

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27 minutes ago, LadyG said:

 

Why do you say that?

The boat I was interested in that was on brokerage was not fully owned by the vendor.

The vendor tried to get me to pay direct not through the broker.

The broker was not perturbed when I told him.

I know someone who took a company near here to court. He never got any money and the busines stil trades.

I think anyone can declare they are a broker, it means they want to take a commission when a boat is sold.

 

Yes, technically anyone can broker. I've known boats be sold through brokers for whom broking was not their primary business.

 

It's surely not that hard to find a genuine broker and their credentials online?

 

Edited by Captain Pegg
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8 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

 

Yes, technically anyone can broker. I've known boats be sold through brokers for whom broking was not their primary business.

 

It's surely not that hard to find a genuine broker and their credentials online?

 

What credentials?

How do you define genuine brokers?

We are talking to  folks who are naive buyers

Edited by LadyG
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1 hour ago, Captain Pegg said:

 

Good point. Is that where the scammer 'intercepts' an otherwise legitimate transaction and isn't the account verification process when transferring money to a business account intended to counter that?

 

I guess the advice there is to ensure you get the full business name used on the account as well as the sort code and account number so you can do that check.

 

The deposit will likely have served as a 'trial' transaction. Bank fraud detection systems are however alert to very small first time transactions as that's a scammers way of testing.

 

 

ETA - I'm feeling quite modern because the idea of handling even £100 of cash seems old hat to me.

 

Beware of email scams when buying and selling your property - Bolt Burdon

Beware of email scams when buying and selling your property - Bolt Burdon

Edited by ditchcrawler
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1 hour ago, booke23 said:

I don't think this is true. The vast majority of boats on Apollo Duck are likely genuine and all boats on brokerage will be genuine. 

 

Your boating experiences  must be very limited.

 

I take it you have not read the previous thread ?

 

The newspaper article where the Broker scammed almost £500,000 of his customers by selling their boats and not paying them, as they were not his to sell, he also took payments and didn't 'give them the boat etc etc etc

 

 

Jailed boat salesman cheated customers out of half a million pounds - Nottinghamshire Live (nottinghampost.com)

 

There was a thread running at the time :

 

 

 

 

 

I'm afraid that my 40 odd years of buying and selling boats has tainted my view of people, and particularly those business involved in boating.

 

The old saying "In God we trust - all others pay cash" is as true today as it was when Noah was building his boat.

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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6 minutes ago, LadyG said:

What credentials?

How do you define genuine brokers?

We are talking to  folks who are naive buyers

 

Further to this, when you finally find a boat you want to buy, it' not as though you now have a choice of what broker or private seller to buy it from. You have to deal with whoever is flogging it and avoid getting stitched up. 

 

 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, IanD said:

 

I didn't say anything about not having a survey, I said that your method of buying/paying for a boat is fine for you but risky for a newbie -- just like chainsawing... 😉

I bought mine by handing a cheque to a bloke who gave me an undated typed recept. A week later when the cheque had cleared I went back and got the boat. More of a newbie than me you couldn't get. No documents with the boat, just a lot of empty bottles and a wasps nest in the shower.

Someone on my mooring got handed a suitcase full of fifty pound notes and tenners for his.

You just have to trust your judgement. Ninety nine times out of a hundred (probably more) it's fine. The scams just make a good story, good sales don't. Most people are mostly honest.

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25 minutes ago, LadyG said:

What credentials?

How do you define genuine brokers?

We are talking to  folks who are naive buyers

 

I'm talking to the OP who is an inexperienced and seemingly cautious buyer. I think it's somewhat more likely that they have made other large purchases like a house or a car in their life rather than they are a total halfwit that doesn't know their arse from their elbow.

 

It's not particularly different. A good boat seller turns over millions of pounds per annum so start by asking if the broker selling your boat looks like a company with a large turnover. Do they have a website that tells you the owner, the registered address, the VAT number, industry accreditations. Do they have an office, staff, nice sales brochures, professionally constructed videos of boats on sale, details of boats they have sold. Does this all check out with stuff you can find online starting with companies house and ending with recommendations from us fools that inhabit online discussion forums.

 

 

Edited by Captain Pegg
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2 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

I bought mine by handing a cheque to a bloke who gave me an undated typed recept. A week later when the cheque had cleared I went back and got the boat. More of a newbie than me you couldn't get. No documents with the boat, just a lot of empty bottles and a wasps nest in the shower.

Someone on my mooring got handed a suitcase full of fifty pound notes and tenners for his.

You just have to trust your judgement. Ninety nine times out of a hundred (probably more) it's fine. The scams just make a good story, good sales don't. Most people are mostly honest.

Trouble is that these days there is a whole world of scamming that didn't really exist 20 years or so ago. Yes, there has always been fraud but it has become the go-to offence these days because the chance of getting caught is so minimal. It is all very well reporting it to 'Action Fraud' but we affectionately knew them as '(in)Action Fraud' because unless it is blindingly obvious who the offender is, it will just get recorded and that is it. Whether the offender has walked off with your suitcase of money in exchange for a boat that wasn't his, or the money you were sending to the broker has been diverted to an account set up explicitly for the purpose of scamming, doesn't really make that much difference, it can happen either way. I also believe that people are mostly honest, but in the current climate you have to assume that they aren't......unless you can afford to lose a whole lot of money.

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15 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Your boating experiences  must be very limited.

 

I take it you have not read the previous thread ?

 

The newspaper article where the Broker scammed almost £500,000 of his customers by selling their boats and not paying them, as they were not his to sell, he also took payments and didn't 'give them the boat etc etc etc

 

Jailed boat salesman cheated customers out of half a million pounds - Nottinghamshire Live (nottinghampost.com)

 

I'm not talking about a rogue broker, I'm referring to the statement of the OP below. Do you agree with the assertion below?

 

4 hours ago, Bishop Brennan said:

it seems as if there are more scammers selling boats which don't belong to them, boats which don't exist, or going bust mid transaction than honest sellers with honest boats.

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

 

I'm talking to the OP who is an inexperienced and seemingly cautious buyer. I think it's somewhat more likely that they have made other large purchases like a house or a car in their life rather than they are a total halfwit that doesn't know their arse from their elbow.

 

It's not particularly different. A good boat seller turns over millions of pounds per annum so start by asking if the broker selling your boat looks like a company with a large turnover. Do they have a website that tells you the owner, the registered address, the VAT number, industry accreditations. Do they have an office, staff, nice sales brochures, professionally constructed videos of boats on sale, details of boats they have sold. Does this all check out with stuff you can find online starting with companies house and ending with recommendations from us fools that inhabit online discussion forums.

 

 

Again I'd agree with you re brokers, the only area in which I'd perhaps differ is the reference to Companies House. I once thought that was a good indication of a viable company, but don't put too much faith in it now. It doesn't take a lot to register a Company with Companies House and the oversight of the companies formed is nowhere near good enough. The whole thing needs to be revamped and made a lot more reliable.

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Maybe just don't buy a boat. 

 

It is a long story but just don't don't go there. Boats may seem like a Good Idea but they can cause untold harm the likes of which have never been known to most people. 

 

Don't worry about whether it is kosher or stollen. These are but small details. 

 

You have to be sure you actually want a boat rather than having been fooled into the idea that it may have been a wise move. Do NOT respond to popular advertising schemes.

 

Definitely don't get a wide bean! 

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13 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

I bought mine by handing a cheque to a bloke who gave me an undated typed recept. A week later when the cheque had cleared I went back and got the boat. More of a newbie than me you couldn't get. No documents with the boat, just a lot of empty bottles and a wasps nest in the shower.

Someone on my mooring got handed a suitcase full of fifty pound notes and tenners for his.

You just have to trust your judgement. Ninety nine times out of a hundred (probably more) it's fine. The scams just make a good story, good sales don't. Most people are mostly honest.

I would suggest the guys paying with wads of cash are not honest or they would use bank transfer.

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11 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Further to this, when you finally find a boat you want to buy, it' not as though you now have a choice of what broker or private seller to buy it from. You have to deal with whoever is flogging it and avoid getting stitched up. 

 

 

 

 

 

For me, this is a key point if you either want a very specific boat or are in a fast-moving market.

 

A lot of good advice has been given around finding out about the seller. When we bought ours there were certainly aspects which made us uneasy. We broke it down into a series of questions:

- Does the seller own the boat?

- Do they have the right to sell it?

- Is there money or something else owing for which we will become liable?

- If we hand over the money, will it be acknowledged that it has been received?

- Will we ultimately get the boat?

 

We addressed each of these so far as we could. We had a name for the seller, he said what he did for a living and we tracked him down online. We completed a bill of sale which required an address - that made him findable on Google maps - the house existed. We also had enough information to locate him on Facebook, which brought up relatives including his wife and granddaughter who he had mentioned. We identified his wife and found out where she worked. It all added up - we knew who we were dealing with.

We knew where the boat had been. That made a link which was able to confirm. It also confirmed that his family didn't like the boat and he had the choice between selling it and a divorce. That confirmed the reason for sale (which did not match what he had told us).

A simplified form of the RYA bill of sale gave confirmation that any issues pre-dating the purchase (including secured loans) remained the seller's problem and anything arising after the purchase was our problem.

We ran a small transaction as a deposit which confirmed receipt - the account worked, the number was valid and making a greater BACS payment to the same account could not be denied to have been received (if it came to it, the bank could confirm all payments were to the same account) and the receipt for the original payment confirmed it was the correct account.

We turned up as quickly as possible after payment, swapped over the padlock and moved the boat. It didn't go far, but far enough to be not obvious where it was (although in practice that didn't work as it pulled its mooring spikes and got posted on Facebook!)

Yes, there were still some issues. We were right to be suspicious and not take anything on trust, but the issues are comparatively minor and do not affect title, rather they were petty annoyances. We didn't get scammed, we did lose a bit (things removed from the boat which were verbally stated to be part of the sale) and some of the items which should have been in working order were not. However, this was the right boat for us, so this was part of the accepted risk.

 

Alec

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Genuine brokers/dealers/sellers:

 

Rugby Boats

ABNB

Tollhouse

ABC (multiple sites)

Lakeland Leisure Boat Sales (multiple sites including Great Haywood)

Great Haywood Boat Sales (multiple sites not including Great Haywood)

Whilton

Venetian

Virginia Currer/High Line

Norbury Wharf

Black Prince, ABC and Anglo-Welsh + Others (for ex-hire boats)

Ashwood

WFBC

 

There are others and I've doubtless missed a big one off the list. Plus I think plenty of marinas that sell boats locally even if they don't have a fully fledged broker/dealer arm.

 

ETA - I overlooked Norton Canes (at Glascote). Not big perhaps but certainly a seller of top end boats. And Braunston Marina.

Edited by Captain Pegg
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2 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

If it is, the seller might be a fruit cake and you'll lose all your bread! 

and if it was not kosher I may have saved someone's bacon!

2 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

Genuine brokers/dealers/sellers:

 

Rugby Boats

ABNB

Tollhouse

ABC (multiple sites)

Lakeland Leisure Boat Sales (multiple sites including Great Haywood)

Great Haywood Boat Sales (multiple sites not including Great Haywood)

Whilton

Venetian

Virginia Currer/High Line

Norbury Wharf

Black Prince, ABC and Anglo-Welsh + Others (for ex-hire boats)

Ashwood

WFBC

 

There are others and I've doubtless missed a big one off the list. Plus I think plenty of marinas that sell boats locally even if they don't have a fully fledged broker/dealer arm.

 

I'm not going to home in on the middle bit of this list. 

(visually)

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13 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

 

I'm talking to the OP who is an inexperienced and seemingly cautious buyer. I think it's somewhat more likely that they have made other large purchases like a house or a car in their life rather than they are a total halfwit that doesn't know their arse from their elbow.

 

It's not particularly different. A good boat seller turns over millions of pounds per annum so start by asking if the broker selling your boat looks like a company with a large turnover. Do they have a website that tells you the owner, the registered address, the VAT number, industry accreditations. Do they have an office, staff, nice sales brochures, professionally constructed videos of boats on sale, details of boats they have sold. Does this all check out with stuff you can find online starting with companies house and ending with recommendations from us fools that inhabit online discussion forums.

 

 

I have bought numerous cars, several houses but that did not mean I knew anything about buying a narrowboat or brokerages, I did not look on eBay, or Amazon, but other than that I was naive.

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7 minutes ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

Again I'd agree with you re brokers, the only area in which I'd perhaps differ is the reference to Companies House. I once thought that was a good indication of a viable company, but don't put too much faith in it now. It doesn't take a lot to register a Company with Companies House and the oversight of the companies formed is nowhere near good enough. The whole thing needs to be revamped and made a lot more reliable.

 

It's about painting a picture from multiple sources. I'd be far more worried about what I couldn't find than what I could.

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2 minutes ago, magnetman said:

and if it was not kosher I may have saved someone's bacon!

I'm not going to home in on the middle bit of this list. 

 

I thought that too. A right bunch of scammers there right in the middle. 

 

Also, Braunston might be the big one slightly miffed to be missing from your list of honest brokers! Flakey though they might be. 

 

 

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1 minute ago, LadyG said:

I have bought numerous cars, several houses but that did not mean I knew anything about buying a narrowboat or brokerages, I did not look on eBay, or Amazon, but other than that I was naive.

 

You can't list used boats on amazon. To be fair to the bloke I don't think he is shifting a lot of stolen gear through his webshite. A lot of landfill gear yes but unlike fb and ebay it looks like it might be mostly slave labour rather than theft driving the profits. 

 

 

 

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11 minutes ago, LadyG said:

I have bought numerous cars, several houses but that did not mean I knew anything about buying a narrowboat or brokerages, I did not look on eBay, or Amazon, but other than that I was naive.

 

And did you get scammed? And if not was it because you were able to apply bit of brainpower and do a bit of detective work that told you the seller/agent was genuine?

 

Or did you simply go to Bristol Street Motors or the local high street estate agent? The same way you could go to Rugby Boats or Alvechurch Marina and be left in no doubt they are very real.

 

What's so different about buying a boat?

 

10 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Also, Braunston might be the big one slightly miffed to be missing from your list of honest brokers! Flakey though they might be. 

 

 

 

I assume that was my list rather than MM's unless I've missed his.

 

The irony is that's exactly where I was this morning. I never mentioned anything about any of them being honest. But they are all real and I'm confident the boats they advertise are legimately on sale. (Or at least were because if you phone them up you might find the boat you're interested in has sold).

Edited by Captain Pegg
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6 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

But they are all real and I'm confident the boats they advertise are legimately on sale.

 

Same here. BUT.... do they actually carry out any 'right to sell' checks? 

 

I once asked them to broker a decent boat of mine but heard nothing back from them. Odd, given they only had one boat left unsold at the time.

 

As it turned out I changed my mind and kept it. I still wonder if they were actually savvy enough to anticipate this which would explain why thy failed to come and value it. But somehow I doubt it! 

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