How do you not get scammed?

[Bishop Brennan]

After reading the "identifying a stolen boat" thread, it seems as if there are more scammers selling boats which don't belong to them, boats which don't exist, or going bust mid transaction than honest sellers with honest boats. 

 

It's got me wondering: how do you guarantee not to lose your money, and to receive a legitimate boat? 

 

What is, and who are reputable brokers? 

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

3 minutes ago, Bishop Brennan said:

After reading the "identifying a stolen boat" thread, it seems as if there are more scammers selling boats which don't belong to them, boats which don't exist, or going bust mid transaction than honest sellers with honest boats. 

 

It's got me wondering: how do you guarantee not to lose your money, and to receive a legitimate boat? 

 

What is, and who are reputable brokers? 

 

 

 

I don't think that you can, all you can do is make a scam more unlikely by doing as advised in the other thread. Buying a boat from a hire fleet reduces the risk, but does not remove it all together because it might be a sponsor boat owned by someone else.

 

Also stay well away from Ebay & social media because they seem to be set up or scammers.

[Alan de Enfield]

28 minutes ago, Bishop Brennan said:

It's got me wondering: how do you guarantee not to lose your money, and to receive a legitimate boat? 

 

Well, my way (which some poo-poo, and others also follow) is to pay cash, yes there are money laundering regulations but I have never had a problem even with boats at £100k+.

 

View the boat and view the seller.

 

Does the seller seem to know how the boat operates, where the emergency switches are, where the gas and fuel switches are, does he** know how to start the engine. How long has the seller had the boat ? Why is he selling it ? Does his wife etc enjoy the boat (is she there), does she know he is selling it ?

 

Does he have a big folder full of paperwork from C&RT, or other companies, showing licence dates, insurance, engine service, or dates of purchase of oil filters etc. Make a note (take a picture) of the names and adressess on the paperwork.

 

Ask for his name and address - do they match those on the paperpwork ?

Ask for non-boating ID (driving licence, passport, council tax bill - take a picture), do they match the ID on the boat paperwork ?

 

Can you meet him at home - does the address match all the paperwork ?

 

Take a picture of his car / number plate for future reference.

 

Agree a price and the fact that you will be paying cash and expect to take the boat away on payment.

 

Get cash, go with a friend who can drive you there and can take the car back after you have paid. 

Pay - get the keys, get on the boat and head off into the blue yonder.

 

 

It can also work with doing a BACS but that usually limits you to the size of transaction per day and the number of transactions in total.

Maybe you can make an arrangement with your bank to allow (say) a £100k (or whatever) single transaction - I dont know never needed to do it.

 

 

** "HE" is just a short was of covering all 26 genders is is not meant to be gender specific

Edited April 14, 2023 by Alan de Enfield

[IanD]

12 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Well, my way (which some poo-poo, and others also follow) is to pay cash, yes there are money laundering regulations but I have never had a problem even with boats at £100k+.

 

View the boat and view the seller.

 

Does the seller seem to know how the boat operates, where the emergency switches are, where the gas and fuel switches are, does he** know how to start the engine. How long has the seller had the boat ? Why is he selling it ? Does his wife etc enjoy the boat (is she there), does she know he is selling it ?

 

Does he have a big folder full of paperwork from C&RT, or other companies, showing licence dates, insurance, engine service, or dates of purchase of oil filters etc. Make a note (take a picture) of the names and adressess on the paperwork.

 

Ask for his name and address - do they match those on the paperpwork ?

Ask for non-boating ID (driving licence, passport, council tax bill - take a picture), do they match the ID on the boat paperwork ?

 

Can you meet him at home - does the address match all the paperwork ?

 

Take a picture of his car / number plate for future reference.

 

Agree a price and the fact that you will be paying cash and expect to take the boat away on payment.

 

Get cash, go with a friend who can drive you there and can take the car back after you have paid. 

Pay - get the keys, get on the boat and head off into the blue yonder.

 

 

It can also work with doing a BACS but that usually limits you to the size of transaction per day and the number of transactions in total.

Maybe you can make an arrangement with your bank to allow (say) a £100k (or whatever) single transaction - I dont know never needed to do it.

 

 

** "HE" is just a short was of covering all 26 genders is is not meant to be gender specific

 

All that is absolutely fine for somebody with a lot of knowledge and experience buying/selling boats, like you.

 

For a newbie asking questions about buying boats and scammers, it looks *very* risky... 😞

 

It's a bit like somebody who's just moved into a house with a garden for the first time and no experience saying "Hey, how should I cut this tree down?" and @tree monkey replying "Well I'd use a petrol chainsaw, it works fine for me, dead easy"... 😉

 

(of course he wouldn't do this for the obvious reasons -- like missing off the last word...)

Edited April 14, 2023 by IanD

[Tonka]

Have a look at ebay and camper vans. Do not think most of them are legitimate sales

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

All that is absolutely fine for somebody with a lot of knowledge and experience buying/selling boats, like you.

 

For a newbie asking questions about buying boats and scammers, it looks *very* risky... 😞

 

It's a bit like somebody who's just moved into a house with a garden for the first time and no experience saying "Hey, how should I cut this tree down?" and treemonkey replying "Well I'd use a petrol chainsaw, it works fine for me"... 😉

 

(of course he wouldn't do this for the obvious reasons...)

 

I never suggested that he should not have a survey - his choice.

 

I BELIEVE

 

It is how he leads up to deciding it is worthwhile having a survey, no point having a survey on a stolen boat.

It is then how to finalise the deal (pay for it) so he doesn't hand over the cash without getting the keys and the boat.

[IanD]

12 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I never suggested that he should not have a survey - his choice.

 

I BELIEVE

 

It is how he leads up to deciding it is worthwhile having a survey, no point having a survey on a stolen boat.

It is then how to finalise the deal (pay for it) so he doesn't hand over the cash without getting the keys and the boat.

 

I didn't say anything about not having a survey, I said that your method of buying/paying for a boat is fine for you but risky for a newbie -- just like chainsawing... 😉

[Alan de Enfield]

12 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

I didn't say anything about not having a survey, I said that your method of buying/paying for a boat is fine for you but risky for a newbie -- just like chainsawing... 😉

 

 

You are entitled to your opinion but I BELIEVE that my course of action minimises the risk (you don't part with the money until you are convinced he is the owner and has the power to so transfer and confirm that it is free from encumbrances, and he cannot run off with your money as he doesn't get it until you get the boat) - can you explain why you think it doesn't |?

[LadyG]

Before I looked at my own boat I asked vendor to send me a copy of his Bill of Sale.

This showed he had bought it new and after twenty years, I kinda assumed he owned it, obviously.

I sent him a bill of sale (see RYA site for a proformer) which I had filled in, with bits for him to fill in and sign in front of myself and I think there were witnesses due to his appointing an agent.

I gave him a deposit which came with a receipt with my conditions for return of the deposit, in case I died or he died for example. He did not want a "get out clause", but he wanted the sale, so he signed.

He was abroad at the time of the completion of sale, appointed an agent. So again, I wrote out a simple contract with the name and address and bank details of both parties, again this was totally to protect me, but it was fair imho.

I spoke to the marina owner and told him the current status. Date of purchase etc. And my instructions, he was probably not best pleased, but this was my money so I was wanting transparency.

 

Regarding a project boat (omg, I was that naive!), I soon discovered the vendor did not own the boat, I spoke to him, and also to his mooring provider . The clue was that he wanted the money to be transferred to an unknown third party and by-passing the broker!

I terminated the discussion at that stage. He had a broker whom I informed of my new information, the boat stayed on the brokerage. Regardless of using a broker I would still want to speak to the owner. If only to determine he knew his boat was up for sale!

I was able to do all these things because the market was slow and I had to wait till my house sold , so delay was essential, and the vendors only had one prospect, moi.

Edited April 14, 2023 by LadyG

[magnetman]

8 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

You are entitled to your opinion but I BELIEVE that my course of action minimises the risk (you don't part with the money until you are convinced he is the owner and has the power to so transfer and confirm that it is free from encumbrances, and he cannot run off with your money as he doesn't get it until you get the boat) - can you explain why you think it doesn't |?

I think some people might be nervous wandering around with a large amount of cash. 

Specially if dealing with someone you are not entirely happy about in terms of them owning the boat. 

[IanD]

16 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

You are entitled to your opinion but I BELIEVE that my course of action minimises the risk (you don't part with the money until you are convinced he is the owner and has the power to so transfer and confirm that it is free from encumbrances, and he cannot run off with your money as he doesn't get it until you get the boat) - can you explain why you think it doesn't |?

 

Because you have enough knowledge and experience to spot false information, but scammers can -- and do -- produce convincing documentation that will fool a newbie.

 

Yes you go off with the boat and the seller goes off with your money, that's not where the risk is -- the risk is that the boat wasn't theirs to sell, and now you don't own it.

 

Scammers are *very* good at producing documents and explanations to pull the wool over the eyes of a naive buyer, it's how they make a living... 😞

 

P.S. For crying out loud Alan, I'm trying to pay you a compliment for once -- try looking at this from a newbie's point of view, not yours!!!

Edited April 14, 2023 by IanD

[Alan de Enfield]

4 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Specially if dealing with someone you are not entirely happy about in terms of them owning the boat. 

 

But you have already gone thru the 'not sure if he owns the boat' rigmarole and satisfied yourself, you have then had a survey and the surveyor is happy the boat is 'good', and then you turn up with your mate(s) with cash in hand and do the exchange.

 

Seems a lot less risky than paying a broker who could do a runner or declare bankruptcy (examples are not uncommon even for brokers with a previous 'excellent' record)

[magnetman]

Or bank transfer. This is how I have bought boats. It helps because you at least have a name. 

 

 

[LadyG]

6 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

 

Scammers are *very* good at producing documents and explanations to pull the wool over the eyes of a naive buyer, it's how they make a living... 😞

 

P.S. For crying out loud Alan, I'm trying to pay you a compliment for once -- try looking at this from a newbie's point of view, not yours!!!

You should know by now  that AdE always looks at things from his own point of view, just sayin'.

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

18 minutes ago, LadyG said:

You should know by now  that AdE always looks at things from his own point of view, just sayin'.

..is that your own point of view?

 

 

 

😃

[BilgePump]

42 minutes ago, LadyG said:

Before I looked at my own boat I asked vendor to send me a copy of his Bill of Sale.

This showed he had bought it new and after twenty years, I kinda assumed he owned it, obviously.

I sent him a bill of sale (see RYA site for a proformer) which I had filled in, with bits for him to fill in and sign in front of myself and I think there were witnesses due to his appointing an agent.

I gave him a deposit which came with a receipt with my conditions for return of the deposit, in case I died or he died for example. He did not want a "get out clause", but he wanted the sale, so he signed.

He was abroad at the time of the completion of sale, appointed an agent. So again, I wrote out a simple contract with the name and address and bank details of both parties, again this was totally to protect me, but it was fair imho.

I spoke to the marina owner and told him the current status. Date of purchase etc. And my instructions, he was probably not best pleased, but this was my money so I was wanting transparency.

 

Regarding a project boat (omg, I was that naive!), I soon discovered the vendor did not own the boat, I spoke to him, and also to his mooring provider . The clue was that he wanted the money to be transferred to an unknown third party and by-passing the broker!

I terminated the discussion at that stage. He had a broker whom I informed of my new information, the boat stayed on the brokerage. Regardless of using a broker I would still want to speak to the owner. If only to determine he knew his boat was up for sale!

I was able to do all these things because the market was slow and I had to wait till my house sold , so delay was essential, and the vendors only had one prospect, moi.

If selling a pricey boat, I would be suspicious of anyone asking for this and think that the 'potential buyer' was the scammer. I'm just amazed that someone would start firing out copies of documents to all and sundry who said they wanted to look at the boat. Would you send a scan of a V5C over to random person before they came to look at a car you were selling?

[magnetman]

Quite often it is better to ask questions without the word "not" in them..

 

For example if you were to go to a pub with an elderly relative who was paying they would not ask "what do you not want to have for your lunch?". 

 

Perhaps a better approach would be to ask "how do you get scammed?"

[LadyG]

18 minutes ago, BilgePump said:

If selling a pricey boat, I would be suspicious of anyone asking for this and think that the 'potential buyer' was the scammer. I'm just amazed that someone would start firing out copies of documents to all and sundry who said they wanted to look at the boat. Would you send a scan of a V5C over to random person before they came to look at a car you were selling?

I am not all and sundry, I am a prospective purchaser .

How do I make money using a copy of a twenty year old bill of sale?

I am not going to travel four hundred miles if vendor is not prepared to back his description with hard evidence .

Boats are not cars.

Edited April 14, 2023 by LadyG

[ditchcrawler]

1 minute ago, LadyG said:

How do I make money using a copy of a twenty year old bill of sale?

Cars are not boats 

Edit it and use it to claim the boat is yours to sell to someone else 

[MtB]

2 hours ago, Bishop Brennan said:

 

It's got me wondering: how do you guarantee not to lose your money, and to receive a legitimate boat?

 

 

Simple answer: You can't.

 

Complicated answer: Use the search facility and read the dozens of threads here on the subject which lay out in detail how to minimise your chances of being scammed. But the only way to guarantee not getting scammed is to hire a boat instead of buying it.

 

.... oh, but hang on.....

 

 

 

[BilgePump]

1 minute ago, LadyG said:

How do I make money using a copy of a twenty year old bill of sale?

Cars are not boats 

I'm well aware that cars aren't boats. I was pointing out that why the hell would anyone send copies of personal/boat information out to someone who might just turn up to look at a boat. Yes, if you are at the deposit stage but not before a viewing.

[LadyG]

3 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Edit it and use it to claim the boat is yours to sell to someone else 

No need to edit it, just use a blank and fill it with owners description. It still won't sell the boat.

[Captain Pegg]

In terms of the question that was asked by @Bishop Brennan I think the starting point is to say that there aren't more scams than legitimate boats for sale. I'd also say that you're not going to find a boat that any BMF member broker advertises that isn't legitimately for sale. I'm not even aware that there are brokers that aren't BMF members. That said I'm not suggesting that it's some form of cast iron safeguard but I think it's probably a good indication of a genuine broker.

 

What you won't necessarily know is whether the supposed 'broker' actually owns the boat and is therefore a dealer rather than a broker. Although come the crunch of an actual sale wouldn't this become apparent? That's nothing to do with whether the boat is legitimately for sale but it does place more stringent legal requirements on the dealer.

 

The other thing is to ask on the forum. There are members here are familiar with quite a few boats that are available and there's a fair chance that someone on the forum knows something about any boat who care to ask about.

 

It's a bit difficult to list as there a lot of brokerages. Generally accepted view of things is that Rugby Boats, Tollhouse, ABNB are high end and Venetian, Whilton, Great Haywood (who aren't actually at Great Haywood) are lower end. Lots of others in between and possibly in those same categories.

 

 

 

 

 

  

Edited April 14, 2023 by Captain Pegg

[LadyG]

3 minutes ago, BilgePump said:

I'm well aware that cars aren't boats. I was pointing out that why the hell would anyone send copies of personal/boat information out to someone who might just turn up to look at a boat. Yes, if you are at the deposit stage but not before a viewing.

I am not ten minutes down the road from the boat, I am four hundred miles away.

[nb Innisfree]

Funny old world, when we sold Innisfree we never heard from 1st enquiry and a viewing, prob suspicious of the low price, maybe that's why we only had 2 enquiries.

 

2nd phone enquiry I spent about an hour describing everything, arranged a viewing and before he hung up he said "I like you Chris"!! 

He came to view, was suitably impressed but expressed some doubts, here we go I thought, "What's wrong" I said

"I can see it's been a labour of love but I'd want to change the kitchen layout"

!!🤣

At that we agreed a price, he didn't want  a survey instead took my word at face value. 

"How do we arrange payments" I said. 

"Oh that's ok, if you're happy with stage payments you keep the boat and hand it over when your ready" he said. 

I was flabberghasted (never has my flabber been so ghasted) he refused any receipts. trusting us totally. 

 

It's a lovely old world when things like that happen. 

 

There are genuine bargains to be had.