Antifreeze, again...

[LadyG]

OK  so I decided I would take my boat to Shire Cruisers to get them to flush and replace antifreeze. Change oil, replace alternator belt.

 

I foresee a huge bill as I fear I have another problem: the back boiler has a PRV which is dry, should I ever touch it? I can hear what sounds like water boiling in the back boiler and when I looked at the pipes it seems to be very green at a junction, I assume this is a leak, it is dry, but that is expected as the water leak would evaporate immediately, I think ? I assume the water in the calorifier feeds the back boiler, there is a radiator in the bathroom. Fat pipes keep boat dry.

I notice the water pump is a bit slow to kick in at the moment, but I assume this is not related ?

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

18 minutes ago, LadyG said:

OK  so I decided I would take my boat to Shire Cruisers to get them to flush and replace antifreeze. Change oil, replace alternator belt.

 

I foresee a huge bill as I fear I have another problem: the back boiler has a PRV which is dry, should I ever touch it? I can hear what sounds like water boiling in the back boiler and when I looked at the pipes it seems to be very green at a junction, I assume this is a leak, it is dry, but that is expected as the water leak would evaporate immediately, I think ? I assume the water in the calorifier feeds the back boiler, there is a radiator in the bathroom. Fat pipes keep boat dry.

I notice the water pump is a bit slow to kick in at the moment, but I assume this is not related ?

 

 

 

We have been through this before and as a further complication your boat is known to be a bit odd.

 

In general terms:

 

The water in the BODY of the calorifier has nothing to do with either the central heating water or the coolant. Both those are separate and contained in their respective pipe coils that then heat the domestic water.

 

The PRV on the back boiler, on a large pipe I assume, is normally a safety valve and it should be dry all the time unless pressure builds up in the stove boiler.  If you have an open header tank for the boiler there should be no pressure build up but the header tank might spit hot water and steam.

 

The green might be a leak or it might be residual flux if it is by a soldered joint.

 

The "boiling sound" might be caused by a build up of lime scale in the boiler. I think that you can get additive that might reduce it bit I will leave it to @MtB etc. to advise on this.

 

Changing the engine coolant will not normally change the central heating liquid.

 

 

 

[LadyG]

11 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

We have been through this before and as a further complication your boat is known to be a bit odd.

 

In general terms:

 

The water in the BODY of the calorifier has nothing to do with either the central heating water or the coolant. Both those are separate and contained in their respective pipe coils that then heat the domestic water.

 

The PRV on the back boiler, on a large pipe I assume, is normally a safety valve and it should be dry all the time unless pressure builds up in the stove boiler.  If you have an open header tank for the boiler there should be no pressure build up but the header tank might spit hot water and steam.

 

The green might be a leak or it might be residual flux if it is by a soldered joint.

 

The "boiling sound" might be caused by a build up of lime scale in the boiler. I think that you can get additive that might reduce it bit I will leave it to @MtB etc. to advise on this.

 

Changing the engine coolant will not normally change the central heating liquid.

 

 

 

1 OK, so far I have found only one top up reservoir vessel, it's quite high, and has liquid which has something nasty in it   . It looks clear but tastes bitter, at the moment it is at room temperature, neither the engine nor the Webasto have been run recently . I take this to be the reservoir for the two main Webasto  radiators and not in the same circuit with the back boiler, but I can't be sure about that .

2 I will have another look tomorrow for another top up reservoir vessel for the engine and skin tank , but as this coolant can be topped up via the special  radiator cap  on the engine, I take it there may be no additional reservoir tank, it is only under pressure when the engine is running, It heats water in calorifier via a coil, as you say

3 I can't find a top up reservoir vessel for the back boiler . I assume it has to be higher than the PRV which sits at the back boiler.

See para 1  last sentence.

 

[Tony Brooks]

Expansion bottles for the engine coolant is a relatively recent fitment and more for skin tank cooled boats so there is every chance that you do not have one.

 

The nasty taste is probably antifreeze, possibly central heating rather than automotive.

 

It is not a PRV, it is a safety valve, Central heating header tanks are normally high up, although some Webasto type systems use a sealed expansion vessel, much like combi-boilers in a house. These should never be used with a solid fuel stove but your safety valve  makes me wonder. Both the boiler and the Webasto MIGHT use the same expansion tank, especially if they both heat the same radiators.  It is a question of looking at the pipework to be sure.

 

 

 

[LadyG]

19 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Expansion bottles for the engine coolant is a relatively recent fitment and more for skin tank cooled boats so there is every chance that you do not have one.

 

The nasty taste is probably antifreeze, possibly central heating rather than automotive.

 

It is not a PRV, it is a safety valve, Central heating header tanks are normally high up, although some Webasto type systems use a sealed expansion vessel, much like combi-boilers in a house. These should never be used with a solid fuel stove but your safety valve  makes me wonder. Both the boiler and the Webasto MIGHT use the same expansion tank, especially if they both heat the same radiators.  It is a question of looking at the pipework to be sure.

 

 

 

Ah, I am looking at a valve which has a red plastic top, there is one close to the back boiler, I assumed a PRV was a safety valve by a different name.

[Tony Brooks]

5 minutes ago, LadyG said:

Ah, I am looking at a valve which has a red plastic top, there is one close to the back boiler, I assumed a PRV was a safety valve by a different name.

 

They both work in a similar way, it is more to do with what they are there for. Its like accumulator and expansion tanks on the domestic water system, both the same thing but doing different things and with different settings.

[NB Alnwick]

One of the problems we all face is the rate at which the cost of essential goods is escalating. As an example, the last tin of grease that I bought for the stern gland greaser was a little over £3. The current price at my nearest chandler has almost doubled. The same is true of antifreeze. We have not used Antifreeze before in Alnwick because during the fifteen years that we were living aboard, the inboard engine and central heating was always maintained at a comfortable temperature. We added Ankorsol anti-corrosion fluid to the coolant and that worked well when we were using the boat regularly. Now that we live on the land, we need to consider our options - do we continue to keep the boat heated (we did this last year) which is an expensive option when using coal and electricity or do we use antifreeze? The latter will be a major investment because our engine cooling system alone will require 30 gallons (136 Litres) and with the Universal Prestone product that MtB has found, works out at about £35 a gallon, that means that we will need to spend over £1,000 on the stuff. Certainly not a cheap option and for that reason we would want to choose a product that will do the job and last for many years.

[ditchcrawler]

11 hours ago, LadyG said:

1 OK, so far I have found only one top up reservoir vessel, it's quite high, and has liquid which has something nasty in it   . It looks clear but tastes bitter, at the moment it is at room temperature, neither the engine nor the Webasto have been run recently . I take this to be the reservoir for the two main Webasto  radiators and not in the same circuit with the back boiler, but I can't be sure about that .

2 I will have another look tomorrow for another top up reservoir vessel for the engine and skin tank , but as this coolant can be topped up via the special  radiator cap  on the engine, I take it there may be no additional reservoir tank, it is only under pressure when the engine is running, It heats water in calorifier via a coil, as you say

3 I can't find a top up reservoir vessel for the back boiler . I assume it has to be higher than the PRV which sits at the back boiler.

See para 1  last sentence.

 

Does your back boiler heat the same radiators as the Webasto or do you have two sets of radiators running independently of each other?

[Tracy D'arth]

10 minutes ago, NB Alnwick said:

One of the problems we all face is the rate at which the cost of essential goods is escalating. As an example, the last tin of grease that I bought for the stern gland greaser was a little over £3. The current price at my nearest chandler has almost doubled. The same is true of antifreeze. We have not used Antifreeze before in Alnwick because during the fifteen years that we were living aboard, the inboard engine and central heating was always maintained at a comfortable temperature. We added Ankorsol anti-corrosion fluid to the coolant and that worked well when we were using the boat regularly. Now that we live on the land, we need to consider our options - do we continue to keep the boat heated (we did this last year) which is an expensive option when using coal and electricity or do we use antifreeze? The latter will be a major investment because our engine cooling system alone will require 30 gallons (136 Litres) and with the Universal Prestone product that MtB has found, works out at about £35 a gallon, that means that we will need to spend over £1,000 on the stuff. Certainly not a cheap option and for that reason we would want to choose a product that will do the job and last for many years.

Your cooling system holds 100 gallons? Or is the Prestone already diluted to 30%?  I never buy diluted, I object to paying for water of unknown quality. Buy concentrated, dilute with filtered rain water or fridge deicing  and with global warming and the canal temperatures not getting as low as they used, to do we really need 30% antifreeze?

[NB Alnwick]

25 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Your cooling system holds 100 gallons? Or is the Prestone already diluted to 30%?  I never buy diluted, I object to paying for water of unknown quality. Buy concentrated, dilute with filtered rain water or fridge deicing  and with global warming and the canal temperatures not getting as low as they used, to do we really need 30% antifreeze?

 

As stated, the cooling system capacity is approximately 30 gallons. The Prestone product is a complete coolant - presumably a combination of several ingredients one of which will be water.

Edited to add that it would be something of a challenge to find 20 gallons of "filtered rain water or fridge deicing".  🐵

Edited December 2, 2022 by NB Alnwick

[bizzard]

I suggest air cooled engines are the way to go, like mine I have two washing up bowls on the roof collecting rain water, a heavy  shower and I get about two gallons. I collect it at night mainly as I'm under ther flight path into Stansted airport when the planes have gone home to roost and the air is cleaner. I sometimes drink it and top up batteries with it. Cats and chickens much prefer it and refuse tap water.

[Mad Harold]

12 hours ago, LadyG said:

1 OK, so far I have found only one top up reservoir vessel, it's quite high, and has liquid which has something nasty in it   . It looks clear but tastes bitter.

 

Oh dear, have you run out of Whisky?

[LadyG]

43 minutes ago, Mad Harold said:

Oh dear, have you run out of Whisky?

You have touched a nerve, I bought a bottle of Laphroaig Select with free glass, in October, from the Co op,

 and really enjoyed my nightcap.

Replaced with BenBrackie Islay, or some such, ( no longer can one buy from a named distillery). I think it is for tourists, it will last a lot longer, and was cheaper.

Edited December 2, 2022 by LadyG

[Phoenix_V]

2 hours ago, NB Alnwick said:

One of the problems we all face is the rate at which the cost of essential goods is escalating. As an example, the last tin of grease that I bought for the stern gland greaser was a little over £3. The current price at my nearest chandler has almost doubled. The same is true of antifreeze. We have not used Antifreeze before in Alnwick because during the fifteen years that we were living aboard, the inboard engine and central heating was always maintained at a comfortable temperature. We added Ankorsol anti-corrosion fluid to the coolant and that worked well when we were using the boat regularly. Now that we live on the land, we need to consider our options - do we continue to keep the boat heated (we did this last year) which is an expensive option when using coal and electricity or do we use antifreeze? The latter will be a major investment because our engine cooling system alone will require 30 gallons (136 Litres) and with the Universal Prestone product that MtB has found, works out at about £35 a gallon, that means that we will need to spend over £1,000 on the stuff. Certainly not a cheap option and for that reason we would want to choose a product that will do the job and last for many years.

I am sure there are cheaper long life antifreeze products especially if you have no older stuff to worry about mixing it with but by my maths 33% dilution of 30 gallons equals 10 gallons which would be about 12 of these concentrated containers I.E. £250 https://www.amazon.co.uk/Prestone-Coolant-Antifreeze-Concentrate-4lt/dp/B009T5NZLI/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8&th=1

[bizzard]

I had a dreadfully strict aunt once. We called her Auntifreeze.

[Alway Swilby]

How do you dispose of the old stuff that you have flushed out of the system? I had 10 litres of old coolant that I took to the local council tip but they said they couldn't accept it. I was tempted to put in their old engine oil tank but they were watching me like a hawk! In the end I found a boat yard willing to accept it.

[NB Alnwick]

32 minutes ago, Alway Swilby said:

How do you dispose of the old stuff that you have flushed out of the system? I had 10 litres of old coolant that I took to the local council tip but they said they couldn't accept it. I was tempted to put in their old engine oil tank but they were watching me like a hawk! In the end I found a boat yard willing to accept it.

Unfortunately, that is the real problem with antifreeze! Most of which is extremely toxic but attractively sweet tasting when consumed by wildlife. It cannot be emptied into the canal or a domestic drain. A reputable vehicle repairer may have a safe disposal route but that entails more cost. That is one of the reasons why I am looking for a long life product.

BTW it would be most unhelpful to add old coolant to a council waste oil tank. Most councils are able to recycle waste oil but these days they are usually charged for this service. If the oil is contaminated with antifreeze, the council could end up paying a lot more.

[NB Alnwick]

2 hours ago, Phoenix_V said:

I am sure there are cheaper long life antifreeze products especially if you have no older stuff to worry about mixing it with but by my maths 33% dilution of 30 gallons equals 10 gallons which would be about 12 of these concentrated containers I.E. £250 https://www.amazon.co.uk/Prestone-Coolant-Antifreeze-Concentrate-4lt/dp/B009T5NZLI/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8&th=1

Thanks for spotting this. That looks like a really good deal although getting the required quanity of clean water may be a challenge unless I use filtered canal water!

[Alway Swilby]

2 hours ago, NB Alnwick said:

 

BTW it would be most unhelpful to add old coolant to a council waste oil tank. Most councils are able to recycle waste oil but these days they are usually charged for this service. If the oil is contaminated with antifreeze, the council could end up paying a lot more.

Yeah, I don't think I would have done this even if I had the oportunity. It was only a fleeting thought.

[ditchcrawler]

2 hours ago, NB Alnwick said:

Thanks for spotting this. That looks like a really good deal although getting the required quanity of clean water may be a challenge unless I use filtered canal water!

https://waternation.co.uk/product/5l-or-25l-industrial-grade-deionised-demineralised-water/?ppc_keyword=&gclid=Cj0KCQiA4aacBhCUARIsAI55maEzjKaLbaDtcj9IUzIaDRMQ5wvKnbAxcoGJktimSb5Ew974jmqw190aAjdxEALw_wcB

[Tracy D'arth]

If you were on Manchester's water  it is probably pure enough once left to lose the chlorine.  Its the southern hard waters that are a no-no.

[GUMPY]

I use this to dilute mine

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/152632387563

[GUMPY]

Or this 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/152632392751?

To dilute this

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/141790085904?

[David Mack]

On 02/12/2022 at 10:19, NB Alnwick said:

As stated, the cooling system capacity is approximately 30 gallons.

Really? 30 gallons sounds a hell of a lot for an engine, skin tank, header tank and some pipework.

[frangar]

7 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Really? 30 gallons sounds a hell of a lot for an engine, skin tank, header tank and some pipework.

Mines got a capacity of 19 gallons...thats for a JP2 on a modern welded shell...and I had been advised I needed a bigger skin tank although its been fine for the 30 odd years Ive owned the boat including some tidal work....so bigger wouldnt be unheard of.