Antifreeze, again...

[matty40s]

I top mine up with water from the dehumidifier, which can produce a litre plus a day in midwinter.

[LadyG]

On 26/11/2022 at 12:35, MartynG said:

I don't think Prestone antifreeze is  particularly new. I haven't used it but no doubt it is okay . I believe Prestone can be used for top up with any antifreeze type. 

I expect the Prestone at Toolstation etc is the ready to use (readmixed) type.

 

I decided to use concentrated Ethylene Glycol antifreeze  (not Prestone) for a very recent coolant change (following flushing with water ).

I had used ready mix previously for a coolant change   which was short lived and this was probably because of dilution due to liquid that is retained in the system.

By using concentrate I made allowance for retained flushing water by making it a 60%coolant to 40% water mix (or thereabouts). 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm finding this slightly confusing, you say you initially used ready mix ( which seems a good idea if the alternative dilute is hard tap water), but you also say it did not last long, probably due to the dilution due to coolant which had been retained in the system. From this latter, comment I assume you did not drain all the old coolant out, which presumably one should do, well as much as possible  BUT you say it was short lived, well how do you know, did you test it for strength, to me it would either be strong enough when  you added it, or not strong enough, though of course it would be a while before complete mixing, but if you just added say two litres of ready to go to eg twenty litres of retained but understrength coolant, well it's never going to be up to strength.

I am thinking about changing the coolant for engine and skin tank, but am concerned about disposal of this liquid, and the flushing water, it could be rather a large volume. If I just remove what I can  (how does one do this), no flushing and adding a universal ten year antifreeze, would that be acceptable? 

I think I need to test strength before I do anything?

I also have a Webasto with two rads, but am reluctant to change the water as everything is working, would it be ok to drain off a litre from the bottom of each radiator assuming this can be done and see if there is any crud ?

 

Edited December 3, 2022 by LadyG

[Tony Brooks]

47 minutes ago, LadyG said:

I also have a Webasto with two rads, but am reluctant to change the water as everything is working, would it be ok to drain off a litre from the bottom of each radiator assuming this can be done and see if there is any crud ?

 

 

No reason not to but it is important to top up with the required water-antifreeze mix in central heating systems although in a pumped system it may well mix itself.

 

 

 

On testing. I don't know the density of modern long life antifreeze so unless someone more knowledgeable comes along to tell us be a bit wary with antifreeze hydrometers/testers. In the days when the cheap antifreeze had a high proportion of ethanol in it the glycol testers always showed  a weak mixture (which would be true a couple of months on because the ethanol had evaporated away, but from new the density was far less so it gave a false reading.

[LadyG]

On 26/11/2022 at 17:56, blackrose said:

 

It also enhances the heat transfer properties of water.

What does that really mean, and please explain relevance to me as a narrow boater with a Webasto with rads plus a sf stove with a back boiler, and one top up reservoir for the heating system.

[Momac]

18 minutes ago, LadyG said:

I'm finding this slightly confusing, you say you initially used ready mix ( which seems a good idea if the alternative dilute is hard tap water), but you also say it did not last long, probably due to the dilution due to coolant which had been retained in the system. From this latter, comment I assume you did not drain all the old coolant out, which presumably one should do, well as much as possible  BUT you say it was short lived, well how do you know, did you test it for strength, to me it would either be strong enough when  you added it, or not strong enough, though of course it would be a while before complete mixing, but if you just added say two litres of ready to go to eg twenty litres of retained but understrength coolant, well it's never going to be up to strength.

I am thinking about changing the coolant for engine and skin tank, but am concerned about disposal of this liquid, and the flushing water, it could be rather a large volume. If I just remove what I can  (how does one do this), no flushing and adding a universal ten year antifreeze, would that be acceptable? 

I think I need to test strength before I do anything?

 

I am sure now that I could not have removed all of the old coolant/flush water .

So the readymix coolant must have been further diluted.

 

I say the mix was  short lived because it turned brown fairly quickly.

 

In simple terms  I got it wrong. 

 

I have since changed coolant using  concentrate which allowed me to add a generous mix to  compensate for  flushing water already in the system.

This may not apply in your case if you can get all of the old coolant out.

 

 

 

 

 

There is a disposal point at the marina for oil and for oily water. 

 

After a 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[LadyG]

On 26/11/2022 at 17:56, blackrose said:

 

It also enhances the heat transfer properties of water.

On 26/11/2022 at 16:56, MartynG said:

By the way the antifreeze is nor just for frost protection.

It increases the boiling point and helps protect the cooling system against corrosion.

 

I knew that, but thanks for reminder

What does that really mean, and please explain relevance to me as a narrow boater with a Webasto with rads plus a sf stove with a back boiler, and one top up reservoir for the heating system.

On 26/11/2022 at 17:56, blackrose said:

 

It also enhances the heat transfer properties of water.

On 26/11/2022 at 16:56, MartynG said:

 

What does that really mean, and please explain relevance to me as a narrow boater with a Webasto with rads plus a sf stove with a back boiler, and one top up reservoir for the heating, ty

[ditchcrawler]

16 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

No reason not to but it is important to top up with the required water-antifreeze mix in central heating systems although in a pumped system it may well mix itself.

 

 

 

The top of my radiator stayed cold when I didn't premix the antifreeze even though its pumped, it just flowed across the bottom and out the other side. It may have mixed in time if I had left it. 

3 minutes ago, LadyG said:

What does that really mean, and please explain relevance to me as a narrow boater with a Webasto with rads plus a sf stove with a back boiler, and one top up reservoir for the heating system.

What does that really mean, and please explain relevance to me as a narrow boater with a Webasto with rads plus a sf stove with a back boiler, and one top up reservoir for the heating, ty

Are you going to tell us if the Webasto and the back boiler heats the same radiators or if you have two separate heating systems each with their own radiators

[Tony Brooks]

12 minutes ago, LadyG said:

What does that really mean, and please explain relevance to me as a narrow boater with a Webasto with rads plus a sf stove with a back boiler, and one top up reservoir for the heating system.

 

I think that he is incorrect. Typical antifreeze has a lower specific heat capacity than water so carries less heat away from the engine. If you stick to between 25% and 40% antifreeze mixture it has little relevance to you.

[LadyG]

On 02/12/2022 at 09:51, ditchcrawler said:

Does your back boiler heat the same radiators as the Webasto or do you have two sets of radiators running independently of each other?

I am not sure. I have only found one top up plastic vessel  ( black hoses).

I think the stove is connected to the  calorifier with mostly fat copper pipes

Edited December 3, 2022 by LadyG

[Tony Brooks]

1 hour ago, LadyG said:

I am not sure. I have only found one top up plastic vessel  ( black hoses).

I think the stove is connected to the  calorifier with mostly fat copper pipes

 

If that is true (the stove is just connected to the calorifier then once the domestic water is up to temperature it would explain the boiling sound and it is also dangerous. I think it is time to trace the radiator pipe work to see they are connected to.

[ditchcrawler]

4 hours ago, LadyG said:

I am not sure. I have only found one top up plastic vessel  ( black hoses).

I think the stove is connected to the  calorifier with mostly fat copper pipes

Do the radiators get hot when the fire is alight and the Webasto off?

[MtB]

7 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

Do the radiators get hot when the fire is alight and the Webasto off?

 

And...

 

Is there a pump anywhere in the heating pipework other than in the webasto?  

 

And...

 

If the fire is alight and the rads DO get hot, does the Webasto itself physically heat up too?

[NB Alnwick]

Well I finally took the plunge and purchased 40 Litres of concentrated Prestone 10 year, all vehicles, antifreeze.

I have diluted it 50:50 with tap water to which I added three more Litres of Ankorsol to inhibit scale and corrosion.

Having studied the specification and reviews from both sides of the Atlantic, I think it will prove to be suitable.

By the looks of the attached image of some of the empties on our front deck, we were just in time!

[ditchcrawler]

34 minutes ago, NB Alnwick said:

Well I finally took the plunge and purchased 40 Litres of concentrated Prestone 10 year, all vehicles, antifreeze.

I have diluted it 50:50 with tap water to which I added three more Litres of Ankorsol to inhibit scale and corrosion.

Having studied the specification and reviews from both sides of the Atlantic, I think it will prove to be suitable.

By the looks of the attached image of some of the empties on our front deck, we were just in time!

Once you have have added it all you don't have a hose or water pump failure and lose it all in the bilge 

[Tony Brooks]

Why the Ankorsol?  The antifreeze should have all the corrosion inhibitors it needs and from what I can gather the corrosion inhibitors might be implicated in the problems said to result from mixing antifreeze types. I could understand it if you were just trying to refresh the corrosion inhibitors in old coolant.

[NB Alnwick]

52 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Why the Ankorsol?  The antifreeze should have all the corrosion inhibitors it needs and from what I can gather the corrosion inhibitors might be implicated in the problems said to result from mixing antifreeze types. I could understand it if you were just trying to refresh the corrosion inhibitors in old coolant.

We have used it for the last 17 years with plain tap water and I now know that it has worked well within the engine (which was raw water cooled for the first 40 years of its life and sea water at that) and main cooling tank - added to which, I had plenty in hand having bought it when it was cheaper. I also checked with Morris Oils, the makers, to make sure that it is compatible.

[bizzard]

Vehicles need a higher concentration of anti freeze than boats. Vehicle coolant remains more or less static until the thermostat opens which could be a mile or two into driving, during this warm up period the cold freezing wind is blasting through the radiator. Countless times I had folk coming to me with frozen radiators, with no or very little antifreeze in it. ''But it wasn't frozen when I set out they'd say.

[LadyG]

On 02/12/2022 at 09:51, ditchcrawler said:

Does your back boiler heat the same radiators as the Webasto or do you have two sets of radiators running independently of each other?

Two sets, independent, one back boiler is gravity, the Webasto is pumped.

Edited December 11, 2022 by LadyG

[Tony Brooks]

25 minutes ago, LadyG said:

Two sets, independent, one back boiler is gravity, the Webasto is pumped.

 

So, if that is correct, you need to find three header tanks.

 

1. Whatever serves as the header tank for the engine - often, but not exclusively, especially on newer boats, the exhaust manifold.

 

2. The boiler system header tank - possibly the one you have found.

 

3. The Webasto header tank, BUT some of this type of heater use a sealed system, like a combi-boiler so it may be a pressurized accumulator like thing. How you add antifreeze the a sealed system would be "interesting" without the kit.

 

Edited to add: That is unless one header tank has two supply pipes, one for each system, and possibly two vent pipes depending how the systems are piped.

Edited December 11, 2022 by Tony Brooks

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, LadyG said:

Two sets, independent, one back boiler is gravity, the Webasto is pumped.

 

Are you answering Ditchcrawlers question (Does your back boiler heat the same radiators as the Webasto or do you have two sets of radiators running independently of each other?) by saying, YES, you have two-separate radiator systems, so, for example if the back-boiler is on, you have some hot radiators and some cold radiators, when you swap over to the Webasto, the ones that were cold now get hot, and the ones that were hot now go cold, and when both the Webasto and the back-boiler are 'on' all of the radiators get hot ?

[Tony Brooks]

4 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Are you answering Ditchcrawlers question (Does your back boiler heat the same radiators as the Webasto or do you have two sets of radiators running independently of each other?) by saying, YES, you have two-separate radiator systems, so, for example if the back-boiler is on, you have some hot radiators and some cold radiators, when you swap over to the Webasto, the ones that were cold now get hot, and the ones that were hot now go cold, and when both the Webasto and the back-boiler are 'on' all of the radiators get hot ?

 

Good point, I took it as only some radiators get hot with the stove and other with the Webasto, but she does not make things clear AND we know there have been odd things about her boat in the past.

[LadyG]

2 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Good point, I took it as only some radiators get hot with the stove and other with the Webasto, but she does not make things clear AND we know there have been odd things about her boat in the past

 

To explain what I have, in outline the Webasto has two radiators which both work and are entirely independent of back boiler. I assume the open top up reservoir is connected to these radiators. There is water in the reservoir.

There seems to be no separate reservoir for the engine coolant, at the moment it is topped up via the screw cap on top of the engine. I am running engine twice per day , and I am waiting for antifreeze to top up, should be here today. I believe there is sufficient antifreeze in it, it just needs topped up an inch.

I know the back boiler heats the bathroom radiator. I think it goes to the calorifier, via a bathroom radiator and fat pipes all the way through bedroom to the calorifier. I have searched but cannot find a separate top up reservoir for this, gravity fed system, so I assume it takes water from the calorifier ? And the calorifier takes cold water via the water pump from the cold water tank?

At the moment all the pipes around the calorifier are hot, the cold water inlet is warm as it meets the calorifier. 

No leaks evident.

My water tank empty, will try to find someone with a container, there are some nearby boats.

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

48 minutes ago, LadyG said:

 

To explain what I have, in outline the Webasto has two radiators which both work and are entirely independent of back boiler. I assume the open top up reservoir is connected to these radiators. There is water in the reservoir.

There seems to be no separate reservoir for the engine coolant, at the moment it is topped up via the screw cap on top of the engine. I am running engine twice per day , and I am waiting for antifreeze to top up, should be here today. I believe there is sufficient antifreeze in it, it just needs topped up an inch.

I know the back boiler heats the bathroom radiator. I think it goes to the calorifier, via a bathroom radiator and fat pipes all the way through bedroom to the calorifier. I have searched but cannot find a separate top up reservoir for this, gravity fed system, so I assume it takes water from the calorifier ? And the calorifier takes cold water via the water pump from the cold water tank?

At the moment all the pipes around the calorifier are hot, the cold water inlet is warm as it meets the calorifier. 

No leaks evident.

My water tank empty, will try to find someone with a container, there are some nearby boats.

 

 

 

It is very unlikely to take water from the calorifier's supply of DOMESTIC water because you can't  then use any antifreeze in it so accelerated corrosion of any radiators would be likely.

 

However, just to muddy the waters 50 years or so ago there was a type of domestic hot water cylinder known as Fortec (Fortic?) that did just that but I very much doubt one would be fitted on a boat. However the odd things you have come across means one can't rule it out completely.

 

I wonder if the stove is fed from the engine coolant system,  so the calorifier, stove and engine are all in series, but the only way to find out is to trace pipes and draw a diagram.

 

I would suggest that a true screw cap on the engine is rarely the place to top up the engine, although on some marinisations they put on on the thermostat housing to aid initial filling and initial air removal. Typically the engine system is topped up and usually filled either via a car radiator type pressure cap on the exhaust manifold or a pressure cap on a plastic header tank, usually mounted close to the engine. That may have a radiator style pressure cap or a plastic screw down one. Some boats use an open header tank close to the engine to top u and run unpressurized.

 

If the coolant level is just an inch below the filler neck then if you put antifreeze in to fill it almost certainly it will be a waste of antifreeze because as the engine heats up so the water expands it will blow all the new antifreeze out.

 

Remember that on skin tank cooled boats the way to establish the correct top up level is to fill the system to the brim just once, run up to temperature and accept coolant will be blown out and wasted. Then allow the engine to cool right down (so the next morning) and note the coolant level. That will be the normal running level and the mark you top up to when needed. EVEN IF it is lower than any markings on an expansion tank or lower than the typical one inch below the filler neck that is typical for heat exchanger boats so is often quoted as the correct level.

 

Too much unknown about the boat to give much useful advice.

 

Edited December 11, 2022 by Tony Brooks
To change parallel to series.

[LadyG]

41 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

It is very unlikely to take water from the calorifier's supply of DOMESTIC water because you can't  then use any antifreeze in it so accelerated corrosion of any radiators would be likely.

 

However, just to muddy the waters 50 years or so ago there was a type of domestic hot water cylinder known as Fortec (Fortic?) that did just that but I very much doubt one would be fitted on a boat. However the odd things you have come across means one can't rule it out completely.

 

I wonder if the stove is fed from the engine coolant system,  so the calorifier, stove and engine are all in series, but the only way to find out is to trace pipes and draw a diagram.

 

I would suggest that a true screw cap on the engine is rarely the place to top up the engine, although on some marinisations they put on on the thermostat housing to aid initial filling and initial air removal. Typically the engine system is topped up and usually filled either via a car radiator type pressure cap on the exhaust manifold or a pressure cap on a plastic header tank, usually mounted close to the engine. That may have a radiator style pressure cap or a plastic screw down one. Some boats use an open header tank close to the engine to top u and run unpressurized.

 

If the coolant level is just an inch below the filler neck then if you put antifreeze in to fill it almost certainly it will be a waste of antifreeze because as the engine heats up so the water expands it will blow all the new antifreeze out.

 

Remember that on skin tank cooled boats the way to establish the correct top up level is to fill the system to the brim just once, run up to temperature and accept coolant will be blown out and wasted. Then allow the engine to cool right down (so the next morning) and note the coolant level. That will be the normal running level and the mark you top up to when needed. EVEN IF it is lower than any markings on an expansion tank or lower than the typical one inch below the filler neck that is typical for heat exchanger boats so is often quoted as the correct level.

 

Too much unknown about the boat to give much useful advice.

 

It's a car radiator type cap, part of the engine marinisation, integral not stand alone.  I did overfill it, so I know the correct level, more or less, and I will be topping up to that level when the antifreeze arrives, I've let it go down a bit.

 

 

[ditchcrawler]

2 minutes ago, LadyG said:

  I've let it go down a bit.

 

 

It shouldn't go down if filled to the CORRECT level unless you have a leak