Where I am

[Captain Pegg]

19 hours ago, billh said:

Where's this? Taken about 1960, the train is a portion of an express from London. Neither of the two bridges shown exist now. The pole on the towpath was part of a Rediffusion cable TV route.

Those look like non-corridor suburban coaches but it is an express loco. Can’t have been a fun journey if it really is a portion of a London express.

 

Is it some enclave of the LMS like the Swansea or Bristol area?

[Pluto]

42 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

Those look like non-corridor suburban coaches but it is an express loco. Can’t have been a fun journey if it really is a portion of a London express.

 

Is it some enclave of the LMS like the Swansea or Bristol area?

I had the same thoughts about the carriages. The Rochdale's Heywood branch almost fits, or possibly the MB&BC, with the express going to East Lancashire.

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

I’ve had a ‘Tip Off’ from a friend.

And if I’ve understood him correctly then I think this more modern image might fit.

The Mills on the left burned down in 2019. 
 

[Captain Pegg]

1 hour ago, Pluto said:

I had the same thoughts about the carriages. The Rochdale's Heywood branch almost fits, or possibly the MB&BC, with the express going to East Lancashire.

I think I’m off with my suggestions and it is indeed somewhere in northern England.

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

I think was on the wrong side of Guides Bridge, looking away. 
 

I’m still trying to work it out from my mates suggestion. 
But he reckons the bridge in the distance is Goby Road. 
So we are back towards Droylsden looking towards Guides Bridge. 

I’ll post the map later. 
And see what you all think. 
 

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

here’s a link to map

He reckons the train’s on the Droylsden Line,

crossing the Ashton. 
 

https://maps.nls.uk/view/126522965

 

 

 

[billh]

3 hours ago, Goliath said:

here’s a link to map

He reckons the train’s on the Droylsden Line,

crossing the Ashton. 
 

https://maps.nls.uk/view/126522965

 

 

 

Goliath's mate is quite correct, congratulations!

The railway in the picture must be one of very few built  as a result of a new canal under construction but resulted in the London and North Western Railway getting their corporate fingers burnt.

The story goes like this: The Manchester Ship Canal planned its new docks ,actually in Salford  and needed the site of the existing  Manchester Race Course for part of the dock area. There was some discussion as to where the race course would be re-located. One of the favoured sites was to be in Audenshaw several hundred yards  to the north and east of our picture (we are looking more or less due east). Based on this, the LNWR built the line from Ashton Moss Junction (just to the south of  our photo)  to Droylsden Station Junction, a mile or so to the North . A station was built (Audenshaw)to serve the proposed  racing venue, at the time there was little housing   in the area and the large  Ashton Moss Colliery site.  The racecouse was actually relocated to a site next to the River Irwell, still in Salford . The Audenshaw Station closed in 1919 and never had any significant traffic. The only regular passenger service , certainly in later years was the named train (The Lancastrian) which ran between london Euston and Manchester London Road with coaches detached at Stockport for the Lancashire textile mill towns and  terminating  at Colne. This was to allow the textile mill owners to conduct business in the Metrolopse and get back home for dinner.

Of interest , but not in our picture, just below where the photographer is, are the two large pipes  making up the Haweswater Aqueduct  bringing Manchester's water from the Lake district, 100 miles or so ,by gravity. The pipes are under the canal here , but can be seen overhead , crossing the Rochdale Canal  in Failsworth.

Also worth mentioning, the bridge in the distance, GRoby Road, had 4 levels to it: The road itself, now demolished , the railway from Denton Junction to Crowthorn Junction, the Ashton Canal and finally beneath the towpath and through the bridge , the Nico Ditch, slightly diverted . This last was part of an ancient Saxon (?) defence works stretching from East to south Manchester, reputed to have been built  in a couple of days  to stop  a Norman invasion several centuries ago.

Goliath's  map link just about shows the location at the extreme left of the map . The extensive railway system around Guide Bridge  is notable.

Anyone still awake?

Bill

.

[davidg]

23 hours ago, Captain Pegg said:

Those look like non-corridor suburban coaches but it is an express loco. Can’t have been a fun journey if it really is a portion of a London express.

 

 

Going way off topic but...

 

I think the rear coach has a corridor connection and is probably the through coach. A quick dive into timetable world London Midland 1961 timetable shows a through carriage arriving Colne at 3.41pm weekdays which appears to come off the Comet at Stockport at 1.22 though it's not obvious from the timetable, it kind of gets lost round Manchester.

 

The question is: what were Edgeley thinking putting a Jubilee out on a job like that? I know they have form in that department, famously sending a Scot to shunt Shallcross yard at Whaley Bridge - I'd love to know what the driver & fireman said when they booked on for that job and saw the loco allocation board - but really...

[David Mack]

8 hours ago, billh said:

The only regular passenger service , certainly in later years was the named train (The Lancastrian) which ran between london Euston and Manchester London Road with coaches detached at Stockport for the Lancashire textile mill towns and  terminating  at Colne. This was to allow the textile mill owners to conduct business in the Metrolopse and get back home for dinner.

 

25 minutes ago, davidg said:

A quick dive into timetable world London Midland 1961 timetable shows a through carriage arriving Colne at 3.41pm weekdays which appears to come off the Comet at Stockport at 1.22 ...

So what time did the train leave Euston? That doesn't suggest a great deal of time for the Lancashire textile mill owners to conduct business in the Metrolopse.

[Pluto]

1 hour ago, davidg said:

Going way off topic but...

I think the rear coach has a corridor connection and is probably the through coach. A quick dive into timetable world London Midland 1961 timetable shows a through carriage arriving Colne at 3.41pm weekdays which appears to come off the Comet at Stockport at 1.22 though it's not obvious from the timetable, it kind of gets lost round Manchester.

The question is: what were Edgeley thinking putting a Jubilee out on a job like that? I know they have form in that department, famously sending a Scot to shunt Shallcross yard at Whaley Bridge - I'd love to know what the driver & fireman said when they booked on for that job and saw the loco allocation board - but really...

The through working to East Lancashire was actually quite a prestigious turn, though much declined in importance by the time of the photo. Prior to the First World War, East Lancashire was producing the vast majority of the world's supply of woven cotton cloth, at that time financed through the Exchange in Manchester. The whole UK economy relied upon the profits made by the textile industry. After the First World War, Manchester's financial services importance declined as its roll was taken by London markets, where those involved in financial services were far less knowledgable of the textile industry. This was one of the reasons behind the decline of the textile industry, and the centralisation of economic control in London possibly lead to the decline in industry generally in the UK.

[billh]

2 hours ago, David Mack said:

 

So what time did the train leave Euston? That doesn't suggest a great deal of time for the Lancashire textile mill owners to conduct business in the Metrolopse.

I  maybe wrong, but I think there were 2 through trains each way per day. Perhaps only one was named? One of them arrived in Colne  in the evening.

I do remember seeing the destination  roof boards on the carriages( "London Euston-Colne".At the time I didn't know where Colne was!

David's comment about the loco is interesting , I recall it was usually a Stanier 5MT  but sometimes a Jubilee. I am either very old or was a newbie trainspotter at the time.

The line closed in 1968, the bridge was demolished mid 70s, a house built on the left bridge abutment and some fool built the M60  across the canal here creating a new tunnel  with lighting that hasn't worked for years.

[Heartland]

An interesting diversion into railway history. For a time I did consider the Birmingham & Warwick Junction Canal near Aston Church Road, but the location did not fit. 

 

And now where could this be, and it is part of a canal structure, but also what is in the foreground?

 

 

[magnetman]

Is it connected with a stately home? Thinking of Shugborough or something like that. 

 

 

[Heartland]

No not that part of the country. It was a canal, which is presently under restoration and this spot is not far from a pub with Viking connections. Indeed the Romans built a road nearby with a name linked to an expensive type of fur. The locals in this area once made fortunes from the wool trade. 

[Pluto]

Stamford area?

[matty40s]

2 hours ago, Heartland said:

An interesting diversion into railway history. For a time I did consider the Birmingham & Warwick Junction Canal near Aston Church Road, but the location did not fit. 

 

And now where could this be, and it is part of a canal structure, but also what is in the foreground?

 

 

Looks like the walkway over the west entrance to sapperton tunnel to me.

[Heartland]

Well done Matty is Sapperton Tunnel at the Daneway End and Ermine Street is the Roman Road nearby.

 

The pub at the other end is presently closed and access down the lane is stopped consequently

 

The path was actually for boat horses passing over the tunnel. So it is an oss path as they say in Tipton.

 

 

Edited July 19, 2023 by Heartland

[Pluto]

Ermine Street runs from London to York, so not near Sapperton. The Roman road there is known as King Street.

[davidg]

9 hours ago, billh said:

I  maybe wrong, but I think there were 2 through trains each way per day. Perhaps only one was named? One of them arrived in Colne  in the evening.

I do remember seeing the destination  roof boards on the carriages( "London Euston-Colne".At the time I didn't know where Colne was!

 

There is a later through carriage from Stockport Edgeley (d 6.33pm/a 8.48pm) and even later on Saturdays (d 10.50pm/a 12.25am). I guess they both connect with London trains at Stockport. The up through carriage to Euston leaves Colne at 8am and arrives at 2.38pm.

 

For David: The London departure of the through carriage is 9.35am which confirms it leaves Euston attached to The Comet, not The Lancastrian which departs earlier. This is all in the 1961 timetable but could, of course , change from year to year.

 

[Graham_Robinson]

2 hours ago, Pluto said:

Ermine Street runs from London to York, so not near Sapperton. The Roman road there is known as King Street.

The stretch of canal leading up to the Coates portal is known as the Kings Reach after a visit by mad King George III

[Stroudwater1]

6 hours ago, Heartland said:

Well done Matty is Sapperton Tunnel at the Daneway End and Ermine Street is the Roman Road nearby.

 

The pub at the other end is presently closed and access down the lane is stopped consequently

 

The path was actually for boat horses passing over the tunnel. So it is an oss path as they say in Tipton.

 

 

Access by vehicle is closed to the Tunnel Inn Coates as the gateway to the long driveway is locked. It is though a footpath and pedestrians are able to walk down. It looked like someone still lived in The tunnel pub at Coates when we were last there in Aug 2021. . 
 

window open. Sadly the sign isn’t correct. It used to be a good pub. 

looks like The Bathurst Estate is doing something- it’s become more of a commercial enterprise in recent times has the estate. 
 

https://www.gloucestershirelive.co.uk/news/cheltenham-news/bathurst-estate-gets-green-light-8524398.amp

 

[IanM]

14 hours ago, Pluto said:

Ermine Street runs from London to York, so not near Sapperton. The Roman road there is known as King Street.

However Ermin Street is the Roman road from Cirencester to Gloucester so is kind of near Sapperton. 

[Tony Brooks]

18 hours ago, Heartland said:

No not that part of the country. It was a canal, which is presently under restoration and this spot is not far from a pub with Viking connections. Indeed the Romans built a road nearby with a name linked to an expensive type of fur. The locals in this area once made fortunes from the wool trade. 

 

As is the Foss Way.

[magnetman]

Where was this rather nice house? (Image altered to attempt to defeat google lens). 

 

 

A clue - how it looks today

 

[magnetman]

Another one 

 

 

Google will find the old picture.