Where I am

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

2 hours ago, Heartland said:

Yes this is Linacre GasWorks

 

But Horseley made bridges so north of the gasworks was a lift bridge, now gone, what was it called?

 

Litherland

 

 

3 minutes ago, Goliath said:

Litherland

 

 

 

Edited June 20, 2023 by Goliath

[Pluto]

Litherland Lift Bridge replaced a swing bridge (there were at least three over the previous years), increasing the road vehicle load which could cross the canal to and from the docks. The new bridge was built by Lancashire County Council during the year following June 1933. It was replaced in 1972 by the current overbridge. 

[Heartland]

Thanks Pluto for the additional information.

 

I recall seeing the lift bridge, but the new bridge, after it, came about with the new roads and the development of docks at Seaforth such as container terminals

 

 

[Heartland]

And now back to the BCN and another question

 

 

 

There are three open boats in this view and one of the boats is loading, but what?  The basin joined the line of the BCN

 

Clue there us something decaying in the park.

 

 

Edited June 25, 2023 by Heartland

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

Ok, I’ll say

Rotton Park Junction. 
West side. 
 

Are they loading broken glass?

(or maybe it’s the other junction, Icknield Junction. And today we can see what remains of the building with upright pillars/supports?  And that’d make better sense with the glass. The factory was on that side.)

Edited June 25, 2023 by Goliath

[Derek R.]

Sand? Grain?

Edited June 26, 2023 by Derek R.

[Heartland]

It is not a factory but was owned by the Corporation of Birmingham. The item loaded was final product of a process adopted there that had been adopted over time. At first the product placed into the narrow boat hold was rather smelly.

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

It must be treated waste. 
Human waste. 
Night soil.
Incinerated. 

Edited June 26, 2023 by Goliath

[Heartland]

Yes is was the Salvage Depot. The item being loaded was a type of ash from the Incinerator.

[Heartland]

And now up north where could this bridge be, what is its function and when was it removed.

 

 

[Guest]

26 minutes ago, Heartland said:

And now up north where could this bridge be, what is its function and when was it removed.

 

 

 

The waterway looks very much like the Aire & Calder around Whitley/Pollington area.

 

Or naybe Rawcliffe/Goole.

[Heartland]

Yes it is that area. This was a railway bascule bridge which never, it is said, operated, and yes the crossing is Aire & Calder Canal (Knottingly- Goole) section. Had bigger ships come up the canal then it would have worked, it is said.

 

But what was the railway as built. It was later LNER and BR.

 

Edited June 28, 2023 by Heartland

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, Heartland said:

Yes it is that area. This was a railway bascule bridge which never, it is said, operated, and yes the crossing is Aire & Calder Canal (Knottingly- Goole) section. Had bigger ships come up the canal then it would have worked, it is said.

 

It seems strange, given there is a fixed bridge in the background. It was the bridge (the style of which is typical of there) that led me to the location.

 

Im guessing the railway served one of the power stations? In the area.

 

Or possibly Kellingley Colliery?

 

 

 

 

[davidg]

19 minutes ago, Heartland said:

 

But what was the railway as built. It was later LNER and BR.

 

 

The H&B.

[David Mack]

21 minutes ago, Heartland said:

But what was the railway as built. It was later LNER and BR.

The Hull and Barnsley Railway. The section between Little Weighton and Wrangbrook junction, including the canal crossing, closed in 1959. I don't know when the bridge was removed though. The swing bridge over the Ouse further east was demolished in 1976.

[Guest]

Im still mystified as to why they bothered installing a lifting bridge given its proximity to the fixed bridge further along.

 

Its seems completely superfluous?

 

 

Edited June 28, 2023 by M_JG

[Pluto]

At the beginning of the 20th century there were proposals for a Leeds Ship Canal based on the A&CN. In the Acts for new railway crossings at this time there would be a clause ensuring that the railway bridge would be of the opening type. Several were built, and only operated once under test conditions.

 

A 1913 newscutting about the scheme: 1913-5-28 Yorkshire Post

LEEDS SHIP CANAL PROPOSAL.

LORD MAYOR COUNSELS FURTHER CONSIDERATION.

A small number of representative Leeds citizens waited on the Lord Mayor of Leeds (Mr. A. W. Bain) yesterday with reference to the suggestion made recently by Councillor J. E. Bedford to include the valley of the Aire immediately below Leeds in the city extension scheme, and to promote a ship canal to the Humber. The deputation included Councillor J. E, Bedford, who is a vice-president of the Chamber of Commerce; Alderman C. H. Wilson and Alderman J. R. Ford, the leaders of the political parties in the City Council; Mr. F. W. Branson. of the Society of Chemical Industry; Mr. Henry Hunt, who gave evidence before the Royal Commission on Canals; and Mr. E. Hirst, President of the Chamber of Trades.

Councillor Bedford, outlining the scheme which has already been made public, urged that the Corporation should recognise the necessity for extending the city in the only direction its which, he maintained, the conditions and facilities demanded by modern commerce could be provided, and he claimed there were immense possibilities for further development of the Aire and Calder Navigation even to the length of a ship canal "It is," said he, "absolutely necessary that Leeds shall have this ship canal. The city is not progressing under present conditions, and we must recognise the fact, and strike out in this direction. Immense developments are being made in the shipping facilities of the Humber estuary, and Leeds should have the facilities for taking advantage of its unique position as a distributing centre for the West Riding. Unless the waterway is provided, we stand to lose many of our heavy trades. Leeds has a reputation for machine tools, locomotives, etc., with the world as a market; do not let us lose these important businesses. The raising of railway rates by a further 4 per cent. will be a serious handicap to Leeds, and I consider the time is ripe for a change in our view of city extensions. Let us only adopt schemes that will contribute to the development of the trades and industries of the district, and provide employment for an increasing population, better housing of the people, and thus create a demand for the vacant land of the Corporation, now lying idle. Money to provide municipal offices, sanatoria, and finer streets will ultimately follow if we secure and develop our commerce on the lines indicated.'

EXTENSION SCHEME DIFFICULTIES.

Alderman Watson reminded Mr. Bedford that he had never seen the draft scheme for extension of the city, for the Parliamentary Committee had been exceedingly careful not to prepare such a scheme, or to commit themselves to any places. It was quite possible to include in the extension scheme Methley, Templenewsam, and a large pat of the area Mr. Bedford suggested, and in that connection Mr. Bedford's assistance would be welcomed.

Mr. Bedford said that, in his opinion, the valley of the Aire immediately below Leeds had not been estimated at its true value. Mr. Arthur Wiley, the other day. remarked to him, "Why, there are nothing but cabbage gardens and rhubarb fields there." to which he retorted. " So much the better, because you can get it at agricultural land value.'

Alderman Ford: Is your idea that some company should be formed to promote this, or that the Aire and Calder Navigation should take it up?

Mr. Bedford replied that be desired the Lord Mayor to summon a meeting with a view to formulating a scheme, or of appointing a sub-committee to interview the Aire and Calder Navigation.

Alderman Wilson suggested that the extension scheme should be left to the Corporation. Too much agricultural land would destroy the project. The Corporation had had experience of that before. Personally, he thought the question of a ship canal was not within the pale of practical politics, but he urged Mr. Bedford to treat it as distinct from the extension scheme.

Alderman Ford agreed that it would be better to treat the two subject separately. ‘I don't," he added, "take the hopeless view of a ship canal that Alderman Wilson does. I think it may come, and I think it worth while to see the Aire and Calder. They will oppose any scheme to which they are not parties.'

Alderman Wilson remarked that for years the Aire and Calder Navigation had been protecting their waterworks, backed up by the Corporation. The Navigation possessed statutory powers, and any scheme would have to be worked in conjunction with them.

Mr. Bedford said that something ought to be done by England. France had spent 55 millions on canals, whereas the British Government had spent nothing. In Germany and France the canals and railways worked side by side.

The Lord Mayor, in reply, pointed out that the question was by no means new. It had been mentioned several times during the last thirty years. The moment had not yet arrived when he, as Lord Mayor, should intervene. There was a good deal of spade work yet to be done, and the matter ought to be ventilated a little more. To convene a public meeting at the present, was like putting the cart before the horse; the horse had some snore work to do. He suggested it was opportune for the Chamber of Commerce to discuss the question.

Mr. Bedford. That is a very good suggestion.

The Lord Mayor: Do not go away thinking I am hopelessly against the scheme. It is as well not to move until the psychological moment arrives. I shall then be glad to do anything I can.

CHAMBER OF COMMERCE AND THE PROJECT.

Later in the day, Mr. Bedford brought the matter before the monthly meeting of the Leeds Incorporated Chamber of Commerce, and reported what had taken place at the interview with the Lord Mayor.

The Hon. Rupert Beckett said he entertained no feeling of hostility towards the scheme. But he had had some experience of what was necessary in such a matter through his connection with the Aire and Calder Navgation, and he knew that body was not opposed to any scheme for the construction of a ship canal. Indeed, during the last 10 or 15 years their deliberate policy had been always on the lines of increasing the capacity of the waterway. But they would not be at the end of their difficulty, even supposing such a waterway from Leeds to Goole, or some point on the Humber, was in being, became they were very much circumscribed by the class and the shape of ship upon the Humber itself, above Hull, which was one of the problems they had to meet in a scheme of this kind. The difficulty was that the Ouse river was never reliable, and at certain periods of the year there was a good deal of difficulty in determining the class of ship and the shape and the greatest capacity that could be safely used. It would he wise to take expert advice before they came near calling a town's meeting or anything of that sort, because it was a question of pounds, shillings, and pence and, although it would be a very fine thing for ships to come to the city, the expenditure of any body undertaking to construct a waterway would be such that a tremendous amount of traffic would be required if they were to get a return for their outlay. The Aire and Calder Navigation had been most carefully managed, and every advantage had been taken to increase the capacity of the waterway; and yet. after nearly two hundred years’ trading, the  dividend was only 4¾ per cent. They saw the fate of the Manchester Ship Canal. The financial side of that  scheme was a failure from start to finish on the estimates put before the public. Thus any such thing as the Leeds Corporation taking up seriously the idea of constructing a ship canal, and saddling itself with a burden like that, would, in his view, be an unwise proceeding.

Mr. Bedford: That has never been suggested.

Mr. Beckett I thought this was put forward in view of the possible extension of the city.

Mr. Bedford explained that his idea was that the scheme should be carried out by the Government.

Mr. Beckett: You did not ray a word about that, and until you get a financial scheme no Government would look at it.

Mr. Bedford pointed out that in France the canals were owned by the State. Germany also owned its canal, and had spent on them about 100 millions, and they were worked licence. That, he thought, was a way in which many of the waterways of Great Britain might be developed.

The Chairman (Mr. J. H. Wicksteed) said he thought it would be very premature to ask the Government to take up an enterprise of the kind.

With a word of thanks to Mr. Bedford for his report, the subject dropped.

 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Pluto said:

At the beginning of the 20th century there were proposals for a Leeds Ship Canal based on the A&CN. In the Acts for new railway crossings at this time there would be a clause ensuring that the railway bridge would be of the opening type. Several were built, and only operated once under test conditions.

 

A 1913 newscutting about the scheme: 1913-5-28 Yorkshire Post

 

LEEDS SHIP CANAL PROPOSAL.

LORD MAYOR COUNSELS FURTHER CONSIDERATION.

A small number of representative Leeds citizens waited on the Lord Mayor of Leeds (Mr. A. W. Bain) yesterday with reference to the suggestion made recently by Councillor J. E. Bedford to include the valley of the Aire immediately below Leeds in the city extension scheme, and to promote a ship canal to the Humber. The deputation included Councillor J. E, Bedford, who is a vice-president of the Chamber of Commerce; Alderman C. H. Wilson and Alderman J. R. Ford, the leaders of the political parties in the City Council; Mr. F. W. Branson. of the Society of Chemical Industry; Mr. Henry Hunt, who gave evidence before the Royal Commission on Canals; and Mr. E. Hirst, President of the Chamber of Trades.

Councillor Bedford, outlining the scheme which has already been made public, urged that the Corporation should recognise the necessity for extending the city in the only direction its which, he maintained, the conditions and facilities demanded by modern commerce could be provided, and he claimed there were immense possibilities for further development of the Aire and Calder Navigation even to the length of a ship canal "It is," said he, "absolutely necessary that Leeds shall have this ship canal. The city is not progressing under present conditions, and we must recognise the fact, and strike out in this direction. Immense developments are being made in the shipping facilities of the Humber estuary, and Leeds should have the facilities for taking advantage of its unique position as a distributing centre for the West Riding. Unless the waterway is provided, we stand to lose many of our heavy trades. Leeds has a reputation for machine tools, locomotives, etc., with the world as a market; do not let us lose these important businesses. The raising of railway rates by a further 4 per cent. will be a serious handicap to Leeds, and I consider the time is ripe for a change in our view of city extensions. Let us only adopt schemes that will contribute to the development of the trades and industries of the district, and provide employment for an increasing population, better housing of the people, and thus create a demand for the vacant land of the Corporation, now lying idle. Money to provide municipal offices, sanatoria, and finer streets will ultimately follow if we secure and develop our commerce on the lines indicated.'

EXTENSION SCHEME DIFFICULTIES.

Alderman Watson reminded Mr. Bedford that he had never seen the draft scheme for extension of the city, for the Parliamentary Committee had been exceedingly careful not to prepare such a scheme, or to commit themselves to any places. It was quite possible to include in the extension scheme Methley, Templenewsam, and a large pat of the area Mr. Bedford suggested, and in that connection Mr. Bedford's assistance would be welcomed.

Mr. Bedford said that, in his opinion, the valley of the Aire immediately below Leeds had not been estimated at its true value. Mr. Arthur Wiley, the other day. remarked to him, "Why, there are nothing but cabbage gardens and rhubarb fields there." to which he retorted. " So much the better, because you can get it at agricultural land value.'

Alderman Ford: Is your idea that some company should be formed to promote this, or that the Aire and Calder Navigation should take it up?

Mr. Bedford replied that be desired the Lord Mayor to summon a meeting with a view to formulating a scheme, or of appointing a sub-committee to interview the Aire and Calder Navigation.

Alderman Wilson suggested that the extension scheme should be left to the Corporation. Too much agricultural land would destroy the project. The Corporation had had experience of that before. Personally, he thought the question of a ship canal was not within the pale of practical politics, but he urged Mr. Bedford to treat it as distinct from the extension scheme.

Alderman Ford agreed that it would be better to treat the two subject separately. ‘I don't," he added, "take the hopeless view of a ship canal that Alderman Wilson does. I think it may come, and I think it worth while to see the Aire and Calder. They will oppose any scheme to which they are not parties.'

Alderman Wilson remarked that for years the Aire and Calder Navigation had been protecting their waterworks, backed up by the Corporation. The Navigation possessed statutory powers, and any scheme would have to be worked in conjunction with them.

Mr. Bedford said that something ought to be done by England. France had spent 55 millions on canals, whereas the British Government had spent nothing. In Germany and France the canals and railways worked side by side.

The Lord Mayor, in reply, pointed out that the question was by no means new. It had been mentioned several times during the last thirty years. The moment had not yet arrived when he, as Lord Mayor, should intervene. There was a good deal of spade work yet to be done, and the matter ought to be ventilated a little more. To convene a public meeting at the present, was like putting the cart before the horse; the horse had some snore work to do. He suggested it was opportune for the Chamber of Commerce to discuss the question.

Mr. Bedford. That is a very good suggestion.

The Lord Mayor: Do not go away thinking I am hopelessly against the scheme. It is as well not to move until the psychological moment arrives. I shall then be glad to do anything I can.

CHAMBER OF COMMERCE AND THE PROJECT.

Later in the day, Mr. Bedford brought the matter before the monthly meeting of the Leeds Incorporated Chamber of Commerce, and reported what had taken place at the interview with the Lord Mayor.

The Hon. Rupert Beckett said he entertained no feeling of hostility towards the scheme. But he had had some experience of what was necessary in such a matter through his connection with the Aire and Calder Navgation, and he knew that body was not opposed to any scheme for the construction of a ship canal. Indeed, during the last 10 or 15 years their deliberate policy had been always on the lines of increasing the capacity of the waterway. But they would not be at the end of their difficulty, even supposing such a waterway from Leeds to Goole, or some point on the Humber, was in being, became they were very much circumscribed by the class and the shape of ship upon the Humber itself, above Hull, which was one of the problems they had to meet in a scheme of this kind. The difficulty was that the Ouse river was never reliable, and at certain periods of the year there was a good deal of difficulty in determining the class of ship and the shape and the greatest capacity that could be safely used. It would he wise to take expert advice before they came near calling a town's meeting or anything of that sort, because it was a question of pounds, shillings, and pence and, although it would be a very fine thing for ships to come to the city, the expenditure of any body undertaking to construct a waterway would be such that a tremendous amount of traffic would be required if they were to get a return for their outlay. The Aire and Calder Navigation had been most carefully managed, and every advantage had been taken to increase the capacity of the waterway; and yet. after nearly two hundred years’ trading, the  dividend was only 4¾ per cent. They saw the fate of the Manchester Ship Canal. The financial side of that  scheme was a failure from start to finish on the estimates put before the public. Thus any such thing as the Leeds Corporation taking up seriously the idea of constructing a ship canal, and saddling itself with a burden like that, would, in his view, be an unwise proceeding.

Mr. Bedford: That has never been suggested.

Mr. Beckett I thought this was put forward in view of the possible extension of the city.

Mr. Bedford explained that his idea was that the scheme should be carried out by the Government.

Mr. Beckett: You did not ray a word about that, and until you get a financial scheme no Government would look at it.

Mr. Bedford pointed out that in France the canals were owned by the State. Germany also owned its canal, and had spent on them about 100 millions, and they were worked licence. That, he thought, was a way in which many of the waterways of Great Britain might be developed.

The Chairman (Mr. J. H. Wicksteed) said he thought it would be very premature to ask the Government to take up an enterprise of the kind.

With a word of thanks to Mr. Bedford for his report, the subject dropped.

 

 

👍

[David Mack]

Oh dear! Oh dear! This a curious age is,

Alteration all the rage is,

Young and old in the stream are moving,

All in the general cry improving,

From the Exhibition I've brought news down sirs,

They're going to make it a seaport town sirs,

Instead of factories and cheap tailors

Nothing you'll see but ships and sailors.

Chorus:

This 'twill be I'll bet you a crown sirs,

When Leeds it is a sea-port town sirs.

 

https://www.waterwaysongs.info/Songs/L/leeds.htm

 

[Heartland]

It is as suggested the Hull & Barnsley and Great Central Joint Railway and Pluto has provided the detail as to why the bascule bridge was made. It is said to have been demolished in 1975.

[magnetman]

A weir on the Thames. But which one?

 

 

It is on the Thames water archive. They say 'unknown'. 

 

https://archive.thameswater.co.uk/archive/lantern-slides/1152235-0886jpg?

 

 

Edited June 30, 2023 by magnetman

[Tony Brooks]

The water levels look very similar, so if it is a weir either the fall was not very great or the river was in flood raising the top of the lower pound, but the flow does not suggest that is the case.

 

When I blew the image up I think that I can see a boat moored on the other side of what I take to be the lock cut, and I can see mooring piles  closer to the structure.

 

I wonder is the small building at the far end that I can't identify, I wonder if it is a summer house for a bankside property.

 

Taking that lot together, is it possible that it has been misidentified as a weir and is actually an old version of Marsh Lock towpath bridge.

 

 

[magnetman]

My first thought was Teddington and your observation about the levels would be in favour of this. 

 

I think the boathouse above is on what is now the Lensbury Club. 

The wooded area to the right became Teddington Studios in 1910 so this picture must be from before then IF it is Teddington

[Tony Brooks]

3 minutes ago, magnetman said:

My first thought was Teddington and your observation about the levels would be in favour of this. 

 

I think the boathouse above is on what is now the Lensbury Club. 

 

That would make sense at high tide. I thought Teddington had a high level structure in it, but that could have been added after this photo was taken. (No, I am not getting mixed up with the half tide lock).

[magnetman]

 

Poplar tree is still there? Maybe it is a different one. 

Edited July 1, 2023 by magnetman