Opinion on a hull (Sorry I'm sure you are fed up of these!)

[damienleith86]

Hi Folks,

Sorry because I know you get a lot of these request. I am looking to buy a boat in Scotland and this one is for sale....

 

https://www.gumtree.com/p/for-sale/57-ft-narrow-boat-spectre/1375399916?utm_source=WhatsApp&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=socialbuttons&utm_content=app_android

 

Additional info:

 

The boat was blacked in August 2019 with Keelblack (6 coats on the side and 4 coats on the bottom).

Mitsubishi K-series engine, oil filter and oil changed in 2018.

Boat Safety Certificate valid until November 2022.

Fully refitted and insulated with 25mm Ballytherm, hardwood finishing on walls and ceiling. 

Lots of storage space, large kitchen with full sized oven, a two burner hotplate and a microwave. Under counter larder fridge. Large chest freezer kept in the storage unit at Applecross. 

Multifuel (coal and wood) stove, two movable oil radiators with WiFi timers.

Two 110Ah leisure batteries and a new starter battery bought in 2018 and a 30a battery charger for shorepower.

Petrol generator. 

Thetford cassette toilet. 

Dehumidifier. 

Alarm system fitted with door and motion sensors. 

Wall mounted 32 inch HD TV and a couch settee. 

Built-in seating area and a pop up table under cratch cover.

 

My main concern is regarding the hull - attached is the survey from Spring 2017. There does seem to have been some corrosion (neglect?) at that time. The boat has since been blacked twice (at that time in 2017 and again in 2019 as detailed above) but only with bitumen not grit blasted an epoxy coated as suggested in the survey. Do you think this will be a problem? Is it worth having it grit blasted and epoxied now? Any other glaring concerns with the boat?

 

It is in an ideal mooring and boats are few and far between on the Scottish canal networks but I am worried there are big issues with the hull?

 

 

Thanks in advance for any advice.

 

Damien

[Alan de Enfield]

In light of all the 'mains electrical equipment' this is not a boat for moving about, it is set up to operate with a mains umbilical.

 

Electric radiators, microwave, etc

Is the 'hob' electric or gas ?

Is the oven electric or gas ?

Is the fridge 12volt or 'mains' ?

 

Only two batteries, no mention of an inverter.

 

The hull fitting heights may be of concern  - the recommended minimum is 10" and some of these are just over 2" they need to have 'swan-necks' internally to take the height above 10"

 

If you intend it to be a cruising boat you will need to make some serious changes to make it suitable - it looks to me to be currently a 'floating flat' with the freezer on-shore.

 

Steel thickness report is not of any particular concerns.

 

Edited June 26, 2020 by Alan de Enfield

[Stilllearning]

Hi, welcome to the forum.

The corrosion wouldn’t worry me much, it does depend to some extent on the age of the hull, which isn’t mentioned?

Shot blasting tends to be expensive, messy and not all yards will do it.

Others will be along with their opinions soon.

[zenataomm]

I really fail to understand your question.

Nobody here can give you an accurate or even helpful response, other than the physical descriptions of heights and fit out.

Only you know your needs and plans for a boat.

Are you seriously planning to spend nearly £40K on something without having an expert look at it?

 

It doesn't matter what anybody on a forum thinks based on their experiences of other boats, it's not pertinent to this one. 

Listen to what your own surveyor says, ask him/her the questions your putting to us.

None of us like coughing up for a survey but the only alternative is don't have one and wonder at night if you should have.

The benefit of not having a survey is the £400-600 you'll save in exchange for a piece of paper limited in what it can tell you, also the amount of money you'll save only having 3rd party insurance as no insurance company will  insure fully comp over a certain age without one.

 

Good luck

[ditchcrawler]

No oil change for 2 years, I wonder when the engine last turned over

[Tracy D'arth]

This is a Gary Gorton shell I'm sure.

In my experience he never built a bad one. It will date from the 1990s

The loss of metal would not worry me at all, its normal for a hull 20 to 30 years old.

Might be a bit pricey, its your choice if you like it.

I do like  epoxy coatings for long term longevity, but it still needs anodes.

TD'

 

 

Edited June 26, 2020 by Tracy D'arth

[damienleith86]

I think it was built 1993.

 

Yes I agree about the floating flat (although  would be using it as a liveaboard) - they have removed gas and have an electric oven - I would plan to convert back to gas. They have also removed the shower and the toilet is a box(!) - I would convert this back (possibly wet room)/ add a compost toilet. I would add solar +/- wind power for cruising. All that said the vast majority of the time I would be moored in a marina with toilets/ shower/ launderette facilities etc. 

 

In Scotland there is no continuous cruising and everyone has to have a "home mooring" - with guest moorings available if you want to move along the canal - so the majority of time is spent in a marina or moving from marina to marina (it is a relatively short canal with multiple marinas along the way between Edinburgh and Glasgow).

[damienleith86]

15 minutes ago, zenataomm said:

I really fail to understand your question.

Nobody here can give you an accurate or even helpful response, other than the physical descriptions of heights and fit out.

Only you know your needs and plans for a boat.

Are you seriously planning to spend nearly £40K on something without having an expert look at it?

 

It doesn't matter what anybody on a forum thinks based on their experiences of other boats, it's not pertinent to this one. 

Listen to what your own surveyor says, ask him/her the questions your putting to us.

None of us like coughing up for a survey but the only alternative is don't have one and wonder at night if you should have.

The benefit of not having a survey is the £400-600 you'll save in exchange for a piece of paper limited in what it can tell you, also the amount of money you'll save only having 3rd party insurance as no insurance company will  insure fully comp over a certain age without one.

 

Good luck

Oh yes I plan to have a survey if I buy it but obviously if people on here had said that the hull is in particularly bad condition for age based on the survey from 2017 I wouldn't have even entertained it. From what people are saying it doesn't seem awful and therefore worth taking to "the next stage" and arranging for a formal survey (no mean feat as Scottish canals are still closed until the end of July). The cumulative experience/ expertise on here seems to serve as a reasonable pre-screen before getting a survey for a boat which otherwise seems to be pretty ideal for my needs (already moored where I want it/ in the right country!) - whilst needing work. I hope that answers your question with regards to "my question"!?

 

D

[Captain Pegg]

4 minutes ago, damienleith86 said:

Oh yes I plan to have a survey if I buy it but obviously if people on here had said that the hull is in particularly bad condition for age based on the survey from 2017 I wouldn't have even entertained it. From what people are saying it doesn't seem awful and therefore worth taking to "the next stage" and arranging for a formal survey (no mean feat as Scottish canals are still closed until the end of July). The cumulative experience/ expertise on here seems to serve as a reasonable pre-screen before getting a survey for a boat which otherwise seems to be pretty ideal for my needs (already moored where I want it/ in the right country!) - whilst needing work. I hope that answers your question with regards to "my question"!?

 

D

It isn’t even close to awful. Remember that the original plate thickness dimensions are nominal and the allowable tolerances are greater than you probably imagine. Once you are into worrying about tenths of millimetres you are working at a level that is neither relevant or likely to be particularly accurate.

 

Carry on and focus on the output of your own survey.
 

JP

[Alan de Enfield]

29 minutes ago, damienleith86 said:

Oh yes I plan to have a survey if I buy it but obviously if people on here had said that the hull is in particularly bad condition for age based on the survey from 2017 I wouldn't have even entertained it.

It is not unknown from a hull to go from 6mm thick to almost 0mm in places in 12 months - it happened to a member of this forum.

You should never rely on a survey that the owner has commissioned (it could be the surveyor is a 'mate' and missed the bad bits out) or if it was behalf of a previous potential purchaser, what put him off ?

 

It can be as simple as 'here's the money, gimme the keys' to a full survey and worrying about every dotted I and crossed t.

 

Bear in mind you'll need several £1000's to refit is as a cruising boat - as it stands it would not manage 24 hours away from the mains electric.

Your 12v electrics will need upgrading and increasing the size of the battery bank, (£300 ?) add in a good quality inverter (£800 ?), a cassette toilet system (£600), a 12 volt fridge* (£600)  a 'reasonable' Solar system (£500+) Gas Cooker & Hob (£600) and you can see the costs start to add up.

 

Add in Licence £600 and insurance £150

 

* You could keep the 240v fridge if you buy an inverter,

 

Before spending your £1000 on a survey (survey costs + hoist costs - lift out and drop back in) just decide if you could buy a 'ready to use' with limited or no additional costs.

Edited June 26, 2020 by Alan de Enfield

[zenataomm]

7 hours ago, damienleith86 said:

Oh yes I plan to have a survey if I buy it but obviously if people on here had said that the hull is in particularly bad condition for age based on the survey from 2017 I wouldn't have even entertained it. From what people are saying it doesn't seem awful and therefore worth taking to "the next stage" and arranging for a formal survey (no mean feat as Scottish canals are still closed until the end of July). The cumulative experience/ expertise on here seems to serve as a reasonable pre-screen before getting a survey for a boat which otherwise seems to be pretty ideal for my needs (already moored where I want it/ in the right country!) - whilst needing work. I hope that answers your question with regards to "my question"!?

 

D

You're putting a lot of onus upon the members here to be qualified enough make judgement based on  a three year old survey. 

Whilst at the same time risking losing it to someone else now you've advertised it.

 

From the detail I'd consider it worth making an offer subject to satisfactory survey 

Good luck 

[haggis]

Interesting that the boat moors in Kirkintilloch yet the freezer is in Glasgow. Not exactly handy ! You say  there are "multiple marinas between Glasgow and Edinburgh"  and I am not sure you are correct as the only ones I can think of are at Kirkintilloch and Auchenstarry. There are various little groups of long term moorers  but there is limited space (if any) for boats wanting to plug into electric. 

If you plan to cruise, I think you would need to make the boat a bit more independent. 

 

haggis

[Richard10002]

8 hours ago, Tracy D'arth said:

This is a Gary Gorton shell I'm sure.

In my experience he never built a bad one. It will date from the 1990s

The loss of metal would not worry me at all, its normal for a hull 20 to 30 years old.

Might be a bit pricey, its your choice if you like it.

I do like  epoxy coatings for long term longevity, but it still needs anodes.

TD'

 

 

What makes you think it’s a Gary Gorton?

 

I ask because I have one, and am interested to know what it is that you can see that distinguishes it.

[Tracy D'arth]

12 hours ago, Richard10002 said:

What makes you think it’s a Gary Gorton?

 

I ask because I have one, and am interested to know what it is that you can see that distinguishes it.

Quite distinctive cabin shape, copied from Mike Heywood boats or so Mike told me.

The hinges on the gas locker cut from rubbing strake bar.

The heavy substantial bow guards.

I bet there is a heart cut out on the rudder top.

The shaping of the cabin side front overhang on the well deck.

 

There is a possibility that Gary's only errors that I know of are also present, that the weed hatch upstand is too close to the front of the diesel tank to get in to de-rust and paint properly, and the rubbing strakes above the water line are not always fully welded on the bottom edges.

 

Gary built a fair number of shells, I have Trad #9, owned it for over 20 years.  He built the original Viking hire boats and the Peak Forest Cruisers boats I believe .

Wish he was still building, I would buy another tomorrow.

 

TD'

[nicknorman]

The hull seems fine to me. As to the rest of it, much of the fit out seems to be just plonking various thing down on the floor, such as domestic kitchen units etc. There isn’t even a door on the wardrobe! I get the impression that if you removed everything that was movable you wouldn’t be left with much. So at £38k it is quite an expensive aged lined sail-away!

 

i appreciate that the Scottish canals have limited turnover and you can only buy what is available, but another option would be to buy down south and get it transported by road up to Scotland. Or just do your boating in Englandshire as we do (Living in Aberdeen).

[jetzi]

Hi Damien, this boat looks great to me.

 

Grit blast & epoxy is a general recommendation. They added this to my survey as well, but the cost is prohibitive for all but the highest end boats (in my opinion). I personally decided blacking was preferable - having the boat out regularly and replace the hull protection, which also allows you to see the condition - epoxy is certainly better, until you scrape it off and then not replace it for 10 years. My personal preference - others may choose differently and if you do buy this boat, before the next blacking I encourage you to argue out the pros and cons of epoxy on the forum! But there is no pressing "need" to epoxy despite what the survey says.

 

If it is a Gary Gorton he is a very highly regarded builder. So perhaps see if you can find out if @Tracy D'arth

is right?

 

I don't know much about the scottish canals (canal?) but this seems like a good boat and if they are few and far between then keep in mind that finding fault is rather easy (and common when asking about potential boats on this forum!)

 

I'm no expert but having looked at a number of surveys when I was looking for a boat I can say that the the corrosion on this boat light compared to the average. Surveys often err on the pessimistic side in their language because they are usually to aid the buyer rather than the seller. My own surveyor said that the discrepancies in thickness are often just a result of the sheet metal the boat is constructed with, than any sign of neglect.

 

No other glaring concerns, as Alan says the electrics is very weak, only 2x 110Ah batteries that you should expect to need replacing, no mention of an inverter. If it were me I'd definitely be budgeting to spend the 1000s that Alan referred to. But it really depends on your cruising style. If you are going to be spending your time on shore power then perhaps the electrics are not an issue for you.

If the mooring suits and you are happy with the interior (definitely make that decision with a viewing though, not just the pictures!) I recommend you make your offer (subject to survey)!

Edited June 27, 2020 by ivan&alice

[matty40s]

1 hour ago, ivan&alice said:

Hi Damien, this boat looks great to me.

 

Grit blast & epoxy is a general recommendation. They added this to my survey as well, but the cost is prohibitive for all but the....

 

If the mooring suits and you are happy with the interior (definitely make that decision with a viewing though, not just the pictures!) I recommend you make your offer (subject to survey)!

Very good and reasoned post. 

[blackrose]

If I wanted a boat with a gas system, a good 12v electrical system and all the other things that seem to be missing from this boat, then I probably wouldn't buy a boat without all that stuff unless it was a sailaway or a very good deal.

[LadyG]

22 minutes ago, blackrose said:

If I wanted a boat with a gas system, a good 12v electrical system and all the other things that seem to be missing from this boat, then I probably wouldn't buy a boat without all that stuff unless it was a sailaway or a very good deal.

Agreed, if you are looking for an investment / housing, better with bricks and mortar, if a hobby boater a trailable boat for summer use, then buy GRP [glass fibre], I dont much like some of the 'refurb', might be better in daylight. Expect to spend £3-5K in year 1, so I'd knock that off the price straight away., even then it's not something you can sell quickly and easily. 

[damienleith86]

Thanks everyone this is all really helpful and certainly gives me a lot to think about.

 

I definitely take on board the comments about the amount and cost of work required to make the boat suitable for cruising again - and will take this into consideration when making an offer.

 

I am currently in the process of trying to arrange a survey which is not easy on the Forth and Clyde canal at the best of times and this is not the best of times!

 

Thanks again,

 

Damien

 

 

[Aye-Aye]

Hi Damien,

are you buying this boat? I'm potentially interested in it myself but I shan't make enquiries if you're still in the process of surveying/negotiating.

All the best,

Martin

[TheBiscuits]

8 minutes ago, Aye-Aye said:

Hi Damien,

are you buying this boat? I'm potentially interested in it myself but I shan't make enquiries if you're still in the process of surveying/negotiating.

All the best,

Martin

 

That's very considerate!

 

Welcome to the forum by the way.

[damienleith86]

Hi Martin,

 

I would still be interested in it but I basically was unable to get it surveyed - there is no where to get the boat out of the water on the Forth & Clyde canal - the few potential places either do not allow the public to use them (being owned by a charity) or are available for "a few hours only" meaning it is not possible to get a survey done and then the bottom reblacked where the bitumen has been removed (obviously a Covid backlog will have contributed to this). So I hit a wall and couldn't get any further forward.

 

I think the owners also may now have found a buyer - the gumtree add says deposit taken (https://www.gumtree.com/p/boats-kayaks-jet-skis/57ft-narrowboat-spectre-/1342453857). I have emailed the seller to try and confirm this and also to see where their potential buyer found to survey the boat or if they decided not too but they have not gotten back to me.

 

So now I am stuck! I am thinking I may need to buy a boat in England and get it driven up but even then there is no easy way of getting it onto the canal. Scotland is not really set up for live aboard canal ownership it seems which is such a shame.

 

Damien

[Tracy D'arth]

4 hours ago, damienleith86 said:

Hi Martin,

 

I would still be interested in it but I basically was unable to get it surveyed - there is no where to get the boat out of the water on the Forth & Clyde canal - the few potential places either do not allow the public to use them (being owned by a charity) or are available for "a few hours only" meaning it is not possible to get a survey done and then the bottom reblacked where the bitumen has been removed (obviously a Covid backlog will have contributed to this). So I hit a wall and couldn't get any further forward.

 

I think the owners also may now have found a buyer - the gumtree add says deposit taken (https://www.gumtree.com/p/boats-kayaks-jet-skis/57ft-narrowboat-spectre-/1342453857). I have emailed the seller to try and confirm this and also to see where their potential buyer found to survey the boat or if they decided not too but they have not gotten back to me.

 

So now I am stuck! I am thinking I may need to buy a boat in England and get it driven up but even then there is no easy way of getting it onto the canal. Scotland is not really set up for live aboard canal ownership it seems which is such a shame.

 

Damien

I would stay in touch, his buyer may call off if it surveys badly or he finds out he can't get it surveyed either.

 

Knowing these boats I would be tempted to get a borescope and underwater light and have a look myself. But I am used to looking at hulls.

 

A surveyor with the right equipment does not need to remove any blacking.

Edited July 30, 2020 by Tracy D'arth

[Aye-Aye]

15 hours ago, damienleith86 said:

Hi Martin,

 

I would still be interested in it but I basically was unable to get it surveyed - there is no where to get the boat out of the water on the Forth & Clyde canal - the few potential places either do not allow the public to use them (being owned by a charity) or are available for "a few hours only" meaning it is not possible to get a survey done and then the bottom reblacked where the bitumen has been removed (obviously a Covid backlog will have contributed to this). So I hit a wall and couldn't get any further forward.

 

I think the owners also may now have found a buyer - the gumtree add says deposit taken (https://www.gumtree.com/p/boats-kayaks-jet-skis/57ft-narrowboat-spectre-/1342453857). I have emailed the seller to try and confirm this and also to see where their potential buyer found to survey the boat or if they decided not too but they have not gotten back to me.

 

So now I am stuck! I am thinking I may need to buy a boat in England and get it driven up but even then there is no easy way of getting it onto the canal. Scotland is not really set up for live aboard canal ownership it seems which is such a shame.

 

Damien

Thanks Damien,

A bit worrying that you can't get the boat out of the water anywhere. Scottish Canals have promoted Living On The Water, so you'd expect the infrastructure to be good enough to make that more feasible. Have you spoken to folk who are currently  living on boats on the Forth & Clyde? It must be possible if people are doing it!

Good luck with your quest.

Martin