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Tim Lewis

CRT Annual Lockage Report

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22 minutes ago, IanD said:

I'd say that none of the Rochdale locks from the junction with the Ashton up are anything like as hard work as the Rochdale Nine on a rainy day, so I hope they never got that far -- if by "a couple of Shire hirers" you mean two people on a boat either would be very hard work, I wouldn't want to do the Rochdale with fewer than four unless i had *lots* of time.

 

Every Shire boat we've ever met on both HNC and Rochdale (several trips now) was having a great time, but then they all knew what to expect -- which was of course precisely why they (and we) were there. I think that HNC/Rochdale ring was probably the most enjoyable trip we've ever done, and we've seen most of the system on holidays in the last forty years or so, parts of it several times.

 

Of course if it was as packed with boats as some of the more popular canals it wouldn't be half as enjoyable, so let's hope it stays a secret only known to the privileged few -- but still enough of us to keep it open 😉

We are making the Rochdale our "winter home". We are quite happy to do gentle CCing with the just the two of us but its not fast. Summit to Tod, and Tod to Hebden are both a fulls days boating.  A third person is very desirable when doing the run into Manchester but CRT have a wonderful volunteer lock keeper who usually helps us.

 

The Rochdale could do with a few more boats, as you say the challenge is to get just enough boats to justify keeping it open (and give the locals something to look at) but to keep the crowds away, but I suspect the number of locks keeps the crowds away.  The recent "cyclepath" upgrade is making mooring in the wild much more difficult but its hard to justify a complaint when there are so few boats.

 

We are in Hebden Bridge now and a boat just went past, quite an unusual event.

 

................Dave

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4 minutes ago, David Mack said:

And on a relatively lightly used canal like the Rochdale, some locks fill and empty (at least partially) on their own, depending on leakage through the gates, water flowing down from lengths upstream etc, so you could easily get some phantom lockages recorded when nothing is actually happening. The likelihood of this occurring may be dependent on how much water level difference counts as a 'lockage'. Is it only from (nearly) full to (9nearly) empty or vice versa, or will a smaller change in level near the mid point also get counted?

I don't know how sophisticated the monitoring is, logically the software should check for a near full to a near empty in a short time period of time,, but its possible that it just does not have this capability. I don't know if its all real time stuff or if the local systems do their own calculation and just transmit the results occasionally Life has so many mysteries. I have seen people cleaning out the measurement tubes.

 

...................Dave

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9 minutes ago, dmr said:

We are making the Rochdale our "winter home". We are quite happy to do gentle CCing with the just the two of us but its not fast. Summit to Tod, and Tod to Hebden are both a fulls days boating.  A third person is very desirable when doing the run into Manchester but CRT have a wonderful volunteer lock keeper who usually helps us.

 

The Rochdale could do with a few more boats, as you say the challenge is to get just enough boats to justify keeping it open (and give the locals something to look at) but to keep the crowds away, but I suspect the number of locks keeps the crowds away.  The recent "cyclepath" upgrade is making mooring in the wild much more difficult but its hard to justify a complaint when there are so few boats.

 

We are in Hebden Bridge now and a boat just went past, quite an unusual event.

 

................Dave

We thought it was a busy day if we saw another boat, and that was at the beginning of September each time. I don't think we ever had to wait for another boat at a lock either in front of us or coming the other way, which was great 😉

 

Except for one time when we got stuck in the middle of a low pound on the way up to Marsden, and had to come up with an engineering solution to a difficult problem while we waited for the boat in front to clear the lock and run some water down...

 

https://photos.app.goo.gl/RY5XR56UTfGS8Xer5 

Edited by IanD

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3 hours ago, rustynewbery said:

The figures don't stack up.  Especially at Hillmorton where it was claimed 9,000 movements this year before being trimmed back to 8362.

 

You couldn't make it up - correction - CRT have

And the 8362 movements at Hillmorton is only for the twin bottom locks 2&3 - Whatever boats were responsible clearly all then disappeared into a black hole as there are no movements listed for the other two twinned locks at Hillmorton!!!

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3 hours ago, rustynewbery said:

Statistics, Lies and damn lies I tell you!!

 

Let's look at the Stratford:  Discounting River lock 56 as it has a raft of trip boat movements from Bancroft Basin, 2241 at Wilmcote top then 2015 at Maidenhead Road - oops we've lost 226!  OK so there was a hire base between the two but that was closed in early June.

 

Onward to the Oxford:

 

3467 at Roundham then 3340 at Dukes - another lost 127?  Onward to Isis 3649?  Pull the other leg, that's 309 missing movements.

 

The figures don't stack up.  Especially at Hillmorton where it was claimed 9,000 movements this year before being trimmed back to 8362.

 

You couldn't make it up - correction - CRT have

Remember all that the figures represent is how many times the lock was filled/emptied, it is not a measure of actual boat movement.  So one reason for some discrepancies is a leaky lock, like Wilmcote top.  Also the lock keepers there spend a lot of time running water down the flight as if suffers low pounds, so again that can cause additional counts.

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I think people are arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin here -- given the way the data is collected there are bound to be errors which are easily spotted by looking for inconsistencies. Isn't the main purpose of these figures to monitor traffic levels overall to help CART make decisions about what maintenance/improvement works should be done where? A few mistakes in individual figures shouldn't affect this, assuming whoever makes the decisions isn't dumb enough to take every one as exact... 😉

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4 hours ago, rustynewbery said:

Statistics, Lies and damn lies I tell you!!

 

Let's look at the Stratford:  Discounting River lock 56 as it has a raft of trip boat movements from Bancroft Basin, 2241 at Wilmcote top then 2015 at Maidenhead Road - oops we've lost 226!  OK so there was a hire base between the two but that was closed in early June.

 

Onward to the Oxford:

 

3467 at Roundham then 3340 at Dukes - another lost 127?  Onward to Isis 3649?  Pull the other leg, that's 309 missing movements.

 

The figures don't stack up.  Especially at Hillmorton where it was claimed 9,000 movements this year before being trimmed back to 8362.

 

You couldn't make it up - correction - CRT have

You too are making the mistaken equivalence of lockages and boat movements. What we are missing is any estimate of the relationship between the two. In other words, if x bot movements occur, what range of lockages are normal? For example, the differences at Roundham/Dukes could well be solely due to the variation is times when a boat had a to turn a lock before use.

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1 hour ago, canalboat said:

And the 8362 movements at Hillmorton is only for the twin bottom locks 2&3 - Whatever boats were responsible clearly all then disappeared into a black hole as there are no movements listed for the other two twinned locks at Hillmorton!!!

That is meant to be a joke, right?

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1 hour ago, canalboat said:

And the 8362 movements at Hillmorton is only for the twin bottom locks 2&3 - Whatever boats were responsible clearly all then disappeared into a black hole as there are no movements listed for the other two twinned locks at Hillmorton!!!

There will only be lock count numbers for locks which have counting aparatus installed which is not all of them. 

 

One other thing that can skew the figures:

Some years ago the figures on The Chesterfield had CRT scratching their heads because one of the locks higher up the canal was recording figures much higher than others lower down the canal and something didn't ring true. 

Then it was pointed out that the occupants of the lock cottage preferred the lock to be full as there was less water noise in their cottage when it was kept full. With so few boat movements on the canal if a boat went through leaving it empty then the cottage owners would nip out with a windlass and fill it up again, if not every time then certainly as dusk fell 

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The figures show a drop of visitors to the Erewash this year, the two quoted, Long Eaton and Eastwood differ greatly but that is understandable but still has over 400 I think boats visiting Langley Mill, still not bad for an end of navigation which is perceived to be a difficult cut,even though it's not that bad.

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7 hours ago, rustynewbery said:

Statistics, Lies and damn lies I tell you!!

 

Let's look at the Stratford:  Discounting River lock 56 as it has a raft of trip boat movements from Bancroft Basin, 2241 at Wilmcote top then 2015 at Maidenhead Road - oops we've lost 226!  OK so there was a hire base between the two but that was closed in early June.

 

Onward to the Oxford:

 

3467 at Roundham then 3340 at Dukes - another lost 127?  Onward to Isis 3649?  Pull the other leg, that's 309 missing movements.

 

The figures don't stack up.  Especially at Hillmorton where it was claimed 9,000 movements this year before being trimmed back to 8362.

 

You couldn't make it up - correction - CRT have

I don’t think there is anything remarkable about any of those variances.

 

You have quite possibly explained the first one yourself but also seemingly discounted it. Also add in that there are probably still boats moored at the boatyard that was formerly the hire base, moorings at Chealybeate and two winding holes between the locks in question.

 

As for the Oxford there is a long linear mooring north of Dukes lock and a junction between Dukes and Isis. Plus boats from the Thames may use Isis and not progress to Dukes. Not to mention lots of moored boats between them.

 

As others have pointed out a lock cycle doesn’t necessarily equate to a boat movement, but it doesn’t even need human intervention to create discrepancies. Consider a lock that has well sealed bottom gates. A boat goes ascends, closes the gates and disappears on its journey. The lock behind stays full until an an hour or two later another boat arrives in the opposite direction, opens the top gate(s) without having to fill the lock and descends and goes on it’s way. Now consider what happens if the bottom gates leak. The lock will empty between the departure of the first boat and the arrival of the second boat. The second boat will then have to fill the lock and the measurement system will record an extra cycle for the same boat movements.

 

The problem with statistics expressed in what appears to be an accurate form is that the reader tends to take the output as an absolute. Any form of measurement has a degree of variation and/or accuracy to the reality, and in many cases - including this one - what is actually being measured and recorded is only a proxy to what the user really wishes to know.

 

There’s no reason to think these numbers are made up or the equipment doesn’t function as designed. There are far more obvious reasons for discrepancies than those.

 

What is weird about the report though is some of the colour coding on the maps relating to stretches that have no locks.

 

JP

Edited by Captain Pegg

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3 hours ago, dmr said:

 

We are in Hebden Bridge now and a boat just went past, quite an unusual event

I passed your boat while I was walking the dog, but there was no sign of life, otherwise I would have said hello.

David

(Hebden Bridge resident)

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9 minutes ago, stagedamager said:

The figures show a drop of visitors to the Erewash this year, the two quoted, Long Eaton and Eastwood differ greatly but that is understandable but still has over 400 I think boats visiting Langley Mill, still not bad for an end of navigation which is perceived to be a difficult cut,even though it's not that bad.

I’m hoping to add to the number of visitors to the Erewash in 2020. I’m also hoping I’ll find a friendly place at the top end to leave the boat for a while 😉

 

JP

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2 minutes ago, David Mack said:

I passed your boat while I was walking the dog, but there was no sign of life, otherwise I would have said hello.

David

(Hebden Bridge resident)

Say Hello next time you pass, we were probably out taking the dog to the vets again, yet another lurcher running accident, dog maintenance costs almost as much as boat maintenance 😀.

 

................Dave

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4 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

I’m hoping to add to the number of visitors to the Erewash in 2020. I’m also hoping I’ll find a friendly place at the top end to leave the boat for a while 😉

 

JP

I'm sure we can help with that!!

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1 hour ago, Captain Pegg said:

I’m hoping to add to the number of visitors to the Erewash in 2020. I’m also hoping I’ll find a friendly place at the top end to leave the boat for a while 😉

 

JP

 

I found a friendly place there to leave Belfast for last winter!

🙂

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8 hours ago, rustynewbery said:

Statistics, Lies and damn lies I tell you!!

 

Let's look at the Stratford:  Discounting River lock 56 as it has a raft of trip boat movements from Bancroft Basin, 2241 at Wilmcote top then 2015 at Maidenhead Road - oops we've lost 226!  OK so there was a hire base between the two but that was closed in early June.

 

Onward to the Oxford:

 

3467 at Roundham then 3340 at Dukes - another lost 127?  Onward to Isis 3649?  Pull the other leg, that's 309 missing movements.

 

The figures don't stack up.  Especially at Hillmorton where it was claimed 9,000 movements this year before being trimmed back to 8362.

 

You couldn't make it up - correction - CRT have

I can quite understand Isis lock on the Oxford having an extra 309. This year we were cruising  up the Thames and wanted to moor above Osney lock at East Street. The moorings were full so we went up Isis lock and moored on the canal for the night then went back down Isis back onto the Thames.

Later in the year our time on the Thames was up and we came up Isis and moored in Jericho for three weeks. During that time we went down Isis and back three times for water. So that's 9 movements before heading up the Oxford Canal and recording one movement at Dukes lock.

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15 hours ago, IanD said:

Can suggest some good stopping places if you need any advice -- what are your plans, just a nice slow bimble across the area or a particular schedule?

Thanks. That would be very helpful. We won’t be on a deadline but do like to do at least six hours a day. Heading up the Macc then HNC and Rochdale, Manchester and Bridgwater and back south on T&M. All of that is new to us. We like a mix of wild, rural moorings and interesting towns and villages. It would be great to know where to stop, and of course where to avoid. Please feel free to send PM rather than take this thread wildly off topic!

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19 hours ago, Captain Pegg said:

That is meant to be a joke, right?

 

18 hours ago, cheshire~rose said:

There will only be lock count numbers for locks which have counting aparatus installed which is not all of them. 

 

Not exactly a joke but I was trying to use humour to perhaps prompt the realisation that the difference between the 9000 movements claimed for boats passing through Hillmorton Locks and the 8362 movements actually recorded at the bottom locks could be that many boats (say 638) come down the flight merely to wind in the boatyard entrance so they use 6or7 and 4or5 but not 2or3.

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1 hour ago, canalboat said:

 

Not exactly a joke but I was trying to use humour to perhaps prompt the realisation that the difference between the 9000 movements claimed for boats passing through Hillmorton Locks and the 8362 movements actually recorded at the bottom locks could be that many boats (say 638) come down the flight merely to wind in the boatyard entrance so they use 6or7 and 4or5 but not 2or3.

Not everyone waits for a Volockie to turn up before doing the Hillmorton flight, lots pass with no one there to record them

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3 hours ago, canalboat said:

 

Not exactly a joke but I was trying to use humour to perhaps prompt the realisation that the difference between the 9000 movements claimed for boats passing through Hillmorton Locks and the 8362 movements actually recorded at the bottom locks could be that many boats (say 638) come down the flight merely to wind in the boatyard entrance so they use 6or7 and 4or5 but not 2or3.

I know quite a few who do this to use the services and do not do the whole flight

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3 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

Not everyone waits for a Volockie to turn up before doing the Hillmorton flight, lots pass with no one there to record them

I actively try to arrive when they are not there.....

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20 minutes ago, matty40s said:

I actively try to arrive when they are not there.....

Me too!

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17 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

Not everyone waits for a Volockie to turn up before doing the Hillmorton flight, lots pass with no one there to record them

Equipment at the bottom lock records the emptying and filling of a lock without the volunteer having to be there although I understand that they do record the ones that pass through when they are there, just for their own record keeping.

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