36national Posted January 25, 2019 Report Share Posted January 25, 2019 My friend has 100 litres of red diesel which looks like this. (photo nicked from a related thread) Her engine has been running fine with it but due to the cloudiness we have removed the diesel from the fuel tank. Should she put it back and use it, can it be treated and cleared or should she dispose of it? What are the chances of engine damage if she uses it ? The engine in question is a Kingfisher so quite old. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paringa Posted January 25, 2019 Report Share Posted January 25, 2019 Is your friend using a additive such as Fuelset? There may be water in the fuel. Did you take this sample from the bottom of the tank? If not that would be my next thing to do, see if you bring up sludge or water or both. Clever types will be along shortly with more info but those are my thoughts... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mac of Cygnet Posted January 25, 2019 Report Share Posted January 25, 2019 Personally I think it is asking for trouble to put red diesel in a wine glass......... 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keeping Up Posted January 25, 2019 Report Share Posted January 25, 2019 Getting it filtered (by a PROPER filtration set-up) should be more cost-effective than throwing it away. I find that adding Fuelset always makes my diesel slightly cloudy, even though there is (as far as I can tell) no water present. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackrose Posted January 25, 2019 Report Share Posted January 25, 2019 Maybe diesel is a bit like beer or cider with cloudy varieties... ? By the way, fuelset is ok at emulsifying water if that's what you want to do, but in general it's not a great additive. Marine 16 is much better. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keeping Up Posted January 25, 2019 Report Share Posted January 25, 2019 (edited) 10 minutes ago, blackrose said: Maybe diesel is a bit like beer or cider with cloudy varieties... ? By the way, fuelset is ok at emulsifying water if that's what you want to do, but in general it's not a great additive. Marine 16 is much better. Indeed (I switched from using emulsifiers to using precipitators a couple of years ago) Edited January 25, 2019 by Keeping Up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmr Posted January 25, 2019 Report Share Posted January 25, 2019 9 minutes ago, Keeping Up said: Indeed (I switched from using emulsifiers to using precipitators a couple of years ago) You mean a demulsifier surely, or do you really want to make it rain. ? ...............Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DandV Posted January 25, 2019 Report Share Posted January 25, 2019 (edited) Cloudy fuel indicates you have water in suspension. The amount of water is a state varying from not desirable to not tolerable. Fuel additives often include an emulsifier that aids the take up of any water settled in the bottom of the tank into the rest of the fuel. In my past life as an oil company engineer I spent considerable resources providing and monitoring mechanical means of routinely checking for and removing settled water from fuel storage. Generally nothing more routinely drawing bottom samples from tanks and discarding any water, and the narrow interface layer. You could tell if someone had added any unauthorised fuel additive because any interface layer was much more extensive. Unauthorised addition of additive into customers storage would result in our withdrawal from most of the responsibility of fuel quality. Underground tanks were prone to some water ingress through the dip and fill points, this was generally not a problem so long as it was removed before the level got to take off level. Often nothing more was required then a hand pump with extended suction tubes through the dip point. My life was though made easier when underground tanks were phased out for aviation fuel storage and most commercial diesel storage. Although of course this introduced more problems regarding fire separation and fire fighting provisions I used to bottom pump my boat fuel tank twice a year, and at least monthly draw a sample from the separator bowl on the fuel line filter. The first time I bottom pumped the fuel tank I did get a few drops of water, some discoloured liquid from the interface and some free rust flakes and grit. After that I did get get the occasional rust grit but no identifiable water. My advice is not to look for a chemical solution to what is a simple housekeeping problem. Edited January 25, 2019 by DandV 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bee Posted January 25, 2019 Report Share Posted January 25, 2019 I think that is certainly water. I would not really want to run the engine on it, it may just damage the fuel pump if watery diesel sits in it. I would drain it or syphon it out and then I would do everything possible to get the sludge and rust out of the bottom of the tank and that is really difficult to do if you can't get in it. Maybe high pressure water jet the tank through the filler? then drain it and repeat many times. leave it for a long time to dry then fill with clean fuel. As for the old fuel maybe take it to the tip and leave it by used engine oil tank? try the various fuel polishers that advertise? Water in fuel is a horrible thing to remedy and many, many of us have it but don't (yet) know. I used to use an additive but I think that just encouraged the diesel to 'soak up' the water. Now I just undo the ring of bolts around the inspection plate, shine a torch into the tank and deal with it, once a year seems about right. I have said it before but if I had another boat built I would get the builder to put an inspection plate in. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Harold Posted January 25, 2019 Report Share Posted January 25, 2019 (edited) Pumped the bottom of my fuel tank recently.The first couple of gallons were jet black (like tar).I assume this was diesel bug.The next couple of gallons were cloudy (like the picture).And the next couple of gallons,and the next. Got fed up pumping,so decided to leave things as they were. Took the dirty diesel to the oil disposal tank at the marina,only to be told that I couldn't put fuel in there,unless I paid a fee of 50p per litre. I reckoned I had syphoned out about 10 gallons which would be twenty odd quid,so I took it to the council dump and was climbing the steps to the oil disposal tank,and one of the operatives shouted,"oy,whatcher got there"I told him it was diesel and there was a sharp intake of breath,and "not allowed mate" I syphoned about 8 gallons of cloudy diesel out of the container and put the mucky stuff in the oil disposal tank at the marina and paid a fiver. The rest I left to settle for a few days,it didn't,so I tipped it back into the tank.How else am I going to get rid of it? I have to report that the engine (a BMC) starts and runs as it always has. I would like to ask,anyone more knowledgeable than me,does Fuelset make any water mix with the fuel? If so,it would explain why the water didn't settle to the bottom of the container. Edited January 25, 2019 by Mad Harold Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DandV Posted January 25, 2019 Report Share Posted January 25, 2019 28 minutes ago, Mad Harold said: Pumped the bottom of my fuel tank recently.The first couple of gallons were jet black (like tar).I assume this was diesel bug.The next couple of gallons were cloudy (like the picture).And the next couple of gallons,and the next. Got fed up pumping,so decided to leave things as they were. Took the dirty diesel to the oil disposal tank at the marina,only to be told that I couldn't put fuel in there,unless I paid a fee of 50p per litre. I reckoned I had syphoned out about 10 gallons which would be twenty odd quid,so I took it to the council dump and was climbing the steps to the oil disposal tank,and one of the operatives shouted,"oy,whatcher got there"I told him it was diesel and there was a sharp intake of breath,and "not allowed mate" I syphoned about 8 gallons of cloudy diesel out of the container and put the mucky stuff in the oil disposal tank at the marina and paid a fiver. The rest I left to settle for a few days,it didn't,so I tipped it back into the tank.How else am I going to get rid of it? I have to report that the engine (a BMC) starts and runs as it always has. I would like to ask,anyone more knowledgeable than me,does Fuelset make any water mix with the fuel? If so,it would explain why the water didn't settle to the bottom of the container. Mix it with your used engine oil at less then 50% then answer the question with "used engine oil" I think it is all burnt anyway as cheap fuel for cement kilns. A small amount of diesel in the waste oil will not raise the flash point of the mixture into the flammable range. Don not though do this with petrol as the volatiles will raise the flash point to dangerous levels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyG Posted January 25, 2019 Report Share Posted January 25, 2019 (edited) I seem to recall using a real chamois skin lined filter funnel, for aviation fuel stored in jerry cans to filter out free water , I assume it would filter diesel but slowly. I had a look at a special fuel filter funnel in the chandlery, but it was tiny, not sure how long it would take to fill up a decent size tank using it. Edited January 25, 2019 by LadyG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Harold Posted January 25, 2019 Report Share Posted January 25, 2019 4 hours ago, Keeping Up said: I find that adding Fuelset always makes my diesel slightly cloudy, even though there is (as far as I can tell) no water present I use Fuelset,too, and this could be why my fuel looks cloudy. But,as I noted before,the engine starts and runs fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DandV Posted January 25, 2019 Report Share Posted January 25, 2019 (edited) In NZ the chamios filter funnels disappeared many many years ago. Fixed aviation installation storage tanks had bottom samples drawn at the beginning of each day, as well as samples from the line filter separator bowls, plus a nozzle sample. The line filters were a very fine hydroscopic paper element that as a last defence would swell up and block the fuel delivery if they came in contact with water. Of course the aircraft operator should have also been checking his fuel tanks for water prior to the commencement of flying. Especially over wing refuelling points were not immune from water ingress. Hughes 600?T helicopters were rated by their manufacturer to run on diesel, but no oil company would approve such operation because road diesel was never subject to the same product stewardship regimes and testing as aviation fuel. However I once received a phone call from a service station operator during a major flooding emergency. He had a helicopter along side his diesel pump on the forecourt requesting fuel. Low cloud prevented a return to any jet fuel supply and there was a family on the roof of a house that was in dire danger of being swept downstream. They checked the bottom of the storage tank with water finding paste, and took nozzle samples from the pump prior and after delivery. Clear and bright with no visible water. The rescue was accomplished but we decided against a second fill to get the aircraft home, instead jet A1 was ferried to the aircraft next day. Edited January 25, 2019 by DandV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DandV Posted January 25, 2019 Report Share Posted January 25, 2019 On the boat I just used one of those super cheap plastic bulb pumps as a sampling pump. I had to buy two to use the other ones suction tube as an extension to get to the bottom of the tank through the fill point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DandV Posted January 25, 2019 Report Share Posted January 25, 2019 22 minutes ago, Mad Harold said: I use Fuelset,too, and this could be why my fuel looks cloudy. But,as I noted before,the engine starts and runs fine. Our boat came with a near full bottle of the stuff that 5 years later and 2500 hours later was still on board in its same state. At our last service before sale the mechanic said he had never before replaced a primary filter that was indistinguishable from new. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ditchcrawler Posted January 25, 2019 Report Share Posted January 25, 2019 27 minutes ago, DandV said: In NZ the chamios filter funnels disappeared many many years ago. Fixed aviation installation storage tanks had bottom samples drawn at the beginning of each day, as well as samples from the line filter separator bowls, plus a nozzle sample. The line filters were a very fine hydroscopic paper element that as a last defence would swell up and block the fuel delivery if they came in contact with water. Of course the aircraft operator should have also been checking his fuel tanks for water prior to the commencement of flying. Especially over wing refuelling points were not immune from water ingress. Hughes 600?T helicopters were rated by their manufacturer to run on diesel, but no oil company would approve such operation because road diesel was never subject to the same product stewardship regimes and testing as aviation fuel. However I once received a phone call from a service station operator during a major flooding emergency. He had a helicopter along side his diesel pump on the forecourt requesting fuel. Low cloud prevented a return to any jet fuel supply and there was a family on the roof of a house that was in dire danger of being swept downstream. They checked the bottom of the storage tank with water finding paste, and took nozzle samples from the pump prior and after delivery. Clear and bright with no visible water. The rescue was accomplished but we decided against a second fill to get the aircraft home, instead jet A1 was ferried to the aircraft next day. We use to draw and keep an Avter sample every morning about a ltr. as well as testing for water. We would then take a sample prior to refuelling to be witnessed by the air crew and again after refueling was completed and if it was necessary to put a fresh tank on then before fuel was drawn from that as well. Not the easiest thing in the world to get a fuel test and show it to the pilot when its poring with rain without getting it contaminated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slim Posted January 25, 2019 Report Share Posted January 25, 2019 I suck 5 litres or so out of my tank every six months or so, whenever I need something to start a garden bonfire. Cheaper than buying parafinn. I use my Pela oil extractor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boater Sam Posted January 26, 2019 Report Share Posted January 26, 2019 (edited) Fortunately your BMC injection pump will be more tolerant of suspended water in the fuel than most modern pumps. Still a bad idea to have contaminated fuel though. Edited January 26, 2019 by Boater Sam smellings & Added Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Brooks Posted January 26, 2019 Report Share Posted January 26, 2019 3 hours ago, Boater Sam said: Fortunately your BMC injection pump will be more tolerant of suspended water in the fuel than most modern pumps. Still a bad idea to have contaminated fuel though. But I would suggest not as tolerant as the old inline pumps. On the BMC pumps (DPA) the hydraulic governor seems to tend to stick if any water is about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iain_S Posted January 26, 2019 Report Share Posted January 26, 2019 16 hours ago, Mad Harold said: (snip) I would like to ask,anyone more knowledgeable than me,does Fuelset make any water mix with the fuel? If so,it would explain why the water didn't settle to the bottom of the container. Yes. It's designed as an emulsifier, the idea being that any water is held in suspension in the fuel and "burned" in the engine. OK for very small quantities, I suppose, but not as a replacement for good housekeeping! ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DandV Posted January 26, 2019 Report Share Posted January 26, 2019 (edited) 5 hours ago, Iain_S said: Yes. It's designed as an emulsifier, the idea being that any water is held in suspension in the fuel and "burned" in the engine. OK for very small quantities, I suppose, but not as a replacement for good housekeeping! ? The design of most fuelling systems is that the fuel offtake is a distance off the bottom to provide a settling chamber for water and crud. If you never remove those contaminants from there then it's provision is actually counter productive as it just allows a bigger slug of slush to head engine bound after any boat movement, and it also provides a nice breading location for diesel bug, water, fuel, and a bit of airborne yeast from make up air. If we ever had a water contamination issue, on road fuel storage, we would however occasionally add some additive, some times just methylated spirits, to take up any remaining water. Any contamination in aviation storage required a tank entry to clean and dry, a major undertaking, degassing , continuous monitoring, air line breathing apparatus , disposable clothing and portable showering facilities immediately adjacent. Edited January 26, 2019 by DandV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
36national Posted January 26, 2019 Author Report Share Posted January 26, 2019 thankyou for your posts, Im fully aware that there is water emulsified in the aforementioned diesel, and if you read the original post properly then you would also be fully aware that the aforementioned water emulsified diesel is no longer in the aforementioned diesel tank. The original post quite specifically solicited information about what is best do be done wit aforementioned said diesel so treat it (with what advice please) burn it anyway (well the engine was running fine on it and mad harold the only sensible responder out of 16 says "YEA" (but he might be mad)) dump it on a swan's nest at midnight along with the contents of my elsan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyG Posted January 26, 2019 Report Share Posted January 26, 2019 (edited) Yes, but there have been some interesting posts. That's standard practice on the forum I'm afraid. I'm not sure if Mad Harold has some greater insight than some others . Polishing/ filtration is an option. Putting it in a waste tank is another, perhaps. I'm not sure if swans have started nesting yet, but I think that's the least favoured option Edited January 26, 2019 by LadyG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
36national Posted January 26, 2019 Author Report Share Posted January 26, 2019 I personally am sure that mad harold has greater insight than the others BECAUSE he has had the same problem and dealt with it just as im also aware that polishing / filtration is an option there seems to be little point in spending 70 quid polishing eighty quids worth of diesel the swan thing was a joke Im off to eat baby on a stick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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