Engine hours: should I be hearing alarm bells?

[magictime]

We've had an offer accepted on a boat that ticks virtually all our boxes both in terms of layout/living space and in terms of spec/equipment... the only question mark, for me, is over the 10000 hours on the Isuzu 4LC38 engine.

The boat is 13 years old, has been used for liveaboard CCing from new by two owners, and shows every sign of having been looked after inside and out. I know from dipping into the current owner's blog that he took a course in engine maintenance after buying the boat and has been doing weekly checks, regular filter changes etc. ever since. There's nothing to suggest the the engine has ever had more than minor problems, other than a broken fuel pump that was quickly replaced. It's been used extensively on rivers (including tidal rivers) as well as canals and has certainly been used for cruising widely rather than just battery charging, so there's no obvious reason to think it's been underworked.

So everything looks positive (I think) apart from that 'bottom line' number of hours, but after a bit of Googling (and searching this forum) I don't know whether to think the engine is probably heading towards needing an expensive overhaul in the next couple of years, should last another 10000+ hours if properly used and maintained, or something in between. I'm inclined to let the surveyor do his job and flag up any concerns, but before we get to that stage does anybody have any thoughts?

Edited September 4, 2017 by magictime

[Mike Hurley]

I would rather buy that over a boat of the same age that lived in a marina and goes cruising once a year for 2 weeks and has 1000 hours on it. Regular oil and filter changes with good oil and filters is the secret to long engine life, plus if is not been used stationary. A compression test would give you a clue as to the internal condition, but i guess that would have to wait until you have ownership. The good service history is a plus point.

[Naughty Cal]

I wouldn't be overly concerned if it has been well looked after.

[Alan de Enfield]

When we sold our last NB it had a tad over 9500 hours on the engine.

It had been serviced all of its life (prior to our purchase) by the manufacturer with receipts for engine services every 100 hours, when we bought it I continued with the 100 hour service (as manual recommended).

It did not smoke.

It did not use a 'drop' of oil between services

It always started after 15 seconds on the pre-heat

In short it was 'as good as new'.

Think about those Taxis that exceed 500,000 miles in their life - at an average of 30mpg that's almost 17000 hours, and I doubt that a London taxi averages even 10mph (50,000 hours).  The 'secret is in the maintenance'.

I would rather have a 10,000 hour 20 year old well serviced engine than a 10 year old engine with 70 hours on (which is what the current boat had on the engines)

[dmr]

Canal boat engines do not have an easy life, far too much running at very light load etc. 10,000 hours is getting on a bit, but if it has been well cared for you might get another 10,000.

A complete engine swap is not as difficult as many people think. If you like the boat then buy it but if you are going to do a lot of hours yourself then budget for an engine swap some time in the next ten years.

...............Dave

[X Alan W]

If you have a chance tostart/run the motor & it =no/very little smoke & non when warm/hot you could ask the owner if he has to add oil between changes ? & if you purchase & use you will find out  A well worked/maintained power unit is  good for a good number of hours.

[Alan de Enfield]

11 minutes ago, dmr said:

Canal boat engines do not have an easy life, far too much running at very light load etc.

As do London Taxis - sat in traffic at 'tickover' for hours on end - rarely ever getting to run at best revs.

[bizzard]

4 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

As do London Taxis - sat in traffic at 'tickover' for hours on end - rarely ever getting to run at best revs.

They got a move on in ''Carry on Cabbie'' they chased robbers.

[bizzard]

The FX3 taxis were dreadfully slow, very low geared and with the old BMC 2.2 engine could barely make 40mph. Most folk who booked one to convey them to Heathrow missed their flight.  I remember as a nipper, we'd just arrived at Euston from Liverpool on the Liverpool flyer which arrived 15 minutes early, expecting my dad to meet us on our old 1936 Royal enfield 500 combination, but he wasn't there, so my mum being of an impatient disposition ordered a taxi which had been waiting for a fare on the rank. It was a Beardmore though, the one with the Fraud Consul petrol engine.  We jumped in it and just as we were pulling out through the old Doric arch my dad came sailing in on the Royal Enfield.    STOP!!! shouted my mum to the cabbie and we all tumbled out again. The cabbie was furious and returned to the rank with the big 1/-  tip given to him for his trouble by my dad.  We arrived home to a a big high tea made by my dad, the cheese sandwiches had dried out and curled up a bit though, but we had to say they were lovely. He'd also re-papered the living room walls while we were away with that staggered rose design on it which my mum didn't like and he had to do it again.

[magictime]

Thanks all most for those helpful replies. I guess dmr is right that we should budget for an engine swap (or rebuild?) in the medium to long term, but meanwhile it sounds as if there's no need to panic. Like I say, I'll see what the survey turns up.

Bizzard, if I ever wake up screaming from a dream about a wizened, red-and-green-eyed figure visiting me to share his reminiscences about the moisture content of his dad's cheese sandwiches and/or the time he built a prototype drone camera using helium balloons, a computer fan, an old Kodak and a trained chicken, I'm holding you personally responsible.

[cuthound]

We had to have the engine replaced in both of our 58 foot shareboats. They were both well maintained with regular oil changes , but in my opinion,  neither engine was ideally suited for boats.

First boat had a 1.4 litre Mitsubishi, lasted 10,000 hours, but had to rev at between 1800 and 2000 rpm to maintain "normal" canal speeds.

Second boat had a Turkish built BMC 1.8 by Calcutt Boats. Ran at 13-1500 rpm to maintsin "normal" canal speeds. Lasted over  13,000 hours.

Being based on an industrial Japenese engine, I would expect an Isuzu engine to last at least 15-20,000 hours with regular oil changes. 

Edited September 4, 2017 by cuthound
To unmangle the effects of autocorrect.

[bizzard]

Barkingside Ilford was well known for being Black cab contry. On cold winter mornings the whole district was enshrouded in the gloom of a thick fug of black noxious oily diesel exhaust smoke, emitted from the taxis BMC 2.2 engines trying to start. I had many customers in that area and was often called out to get them started, though most of the cabbies were used to it and were geared up to get them started with jump batteries and leads, blowlamps to introduce fire into the air intakes, some even resorted to lighting bonfires under the engine. They were very envious of the superb 2,1/4 litre petrol engine in my old Land Rover.

[OldGoat]

Sometimes the cost of 'marinising' and engine can add significantly to the cost - so in this case and provided that there have been no major changes to the engine block then a new replacement unit may work out at a reasonable price. That depends on who (cost wise) is going to provide the labour and how much is salvageable.

 

[Bee]

As Old Goat says, a replacement 'short' engine is not terribly expensive and even if there have been a few changes to the block a reconditioners would be happy to re use your block and give it back to you. So long as the engine runs ok and is reasonably quiet and doesn't smoke I would be happy with it.

[cereal tiller]

1 hour ago, bizzard said:

The FX3 taxis were dreadfully slow, very low geared and with the old BMC 2.2 engine could barely make 40mph. Most folk who booked one to convey them to Heathrow missed their flight.  I remember as a nipper, we'd just arrived at Euston from Liverpool on the Liverpool flyer which arrived 15 minutes early, expecting my dad to meet us on our old 1936 Royal enfield 500 combination, but he wasn't there, so my mum being of an impatient disposition ordered a taxi which had been waiting for a fare on the rank. It was a Beardmore though, the one with the Fraud Consul petrol engine.  We jumped in it and just as we were pulling out through the old Doric arch my dad came sailing in on the Royal Enfield.    STOP!!! shouted my mum to the cabbie and we all tumbled out again. The cabbie was furious and returned to the rank with the big 1/-  tip given to him for his trouble by my dad.  We arrived home to a a big high tea made by my dad, the cheese sandwiches had dried out and curled up a bit though, but we had to say they were lovely. He'd also re-papered the living room walls while we were away with that staggered rose design on it which my mum didn't like and he had to do it again.

Ahem! I had an Austin FX 4 with a BMC 2.2, it could attain Speeds of 55-60 Miles Per Hour.same Engine as FX3

The 2.5 Engine with higher Diff. Ratio could nudge 70 MPH

[zenataomm]

Can you still get that wallpaper?

[Tony Brooks]

Lucky there was no engine counter on my boat when I bought it out of a hire fleet at 10 years old. I bet it had done more than 10000 hours. It started well from cold, did not leak oil, did not smoke  any ore than others of the model, and the oil light w went off quickly and stayed off for several seconds after the engine was topped. Still happy with it about 17 years on. (but then it is a proper marine engine - Bukh).

[Dylan]

5 hours ago, cereal tiller said:

Ahem! I had an Austin FX 4 with a BMC 2.2, it could attain Speeds of 55-60 Miles Per Hour.same Engine as FX3

The 2.5 Engine with higher Diff. Ratio could nudge 70 MPH

Even  trabant will 60 down the hill

[jddevel]

Are narrowboat engines ever compression tested?

[Bunny]

We've had compression tests by our engineer several times over the years , just to check all ok . Beta 43 , re-built/reconditioned at 11500.hrs inc new drive plate didnt use any water or oil . Just the  woodruff key messing everything up , again. 

[Tony Brooks]

1 hour ago, jddevel said:

Are narrowboat engines ever compression tested?

Not narrowboat but river cruisers, yes its a vital diagnostic tool when you are trying to narrow a fault down.

 

Now want I want to know in view of the Engineer nr Hanwell topic is how often are conrods checked for straightness etc. I have never seen a rod gauge in any of the workshops I have visited although it can be dome on a surface plate.

Edited September 4, 2017 by Tony Brooks

[Alway Swilby]

12 hours ago, bizzard said:

Barkingside Ilford was well known for being Black cab contry. On cold winter mornings the whole district was enshrouded in the gloom of a thick fug of black noxious oily diesel exhaust smoke, emitted from the taxis BMC 2.2 engines trying to start. I had many customers in that area and was often called out to get them started, though most of the cabbies were used to it and were geared up to get them started with jump batteries and leads, blowlamps to introduce fire into the air intakes, some even resorted to lighting bonfires under the engine. They were very envious of the superb 2,1/4 litre petrol engine in my old Land Rover.

Reminds me of my old FX4 retired taxi that I had as a private vehicle. The BMC  2.2 was a bugger to start so if it was really cold weather I used to leave it idling all night long. Easystart sprayed up the air filter was another alternative in not so cold weather.

[Neil2]

On 9/4/2017 at 08:07, magictime said:

We've had an offer accepted on a boat that ticks virtually all our boxes both in terms of layout/living space and in terms of spec/equipment... the only question mark, for me, is over the 10000 hours on the Isuzu 4LC38 engine.

The boat is 13 years old, has been used for liveaboard CCing from new by two owners, and shows every sign of having been looked after inside and out. I know from dipping into the current owner's blog that he took a course in engine maintenance after buying the boat and has been doing weekly checks, regular filter changes etc. ever since. There's nothing to suggest the the engine has ever had more than minor problems, other than a broken fuel pump that was quickly replaced. It's been used extensively on rivers (including tidal rivers) as well as canals and has certainly been used for cruising widely rather than just battery charging, so there's no obvious reason to think it's been underworked.

So everything looks positive (I think) apart from that 'bottom line' number of hours, but after a bit of Googling (and searching this forum) I don't know whether to think the engine is probably heading towards needing an expensive overhaul in the next couple of years, should last another 10000+ hours if properly used and maintained, or something in between. I'm inclined to let the surveyor do his job and flag up any concerns, but before we get to that stage does anybody have any thoughts?

You could have the oil tested, there are several companies online who offer oil sampling services and it's not that expensive.  I did this with a boat that had an elderly Lister LPWS and the lab report suggested the engine had significant bearing wear.  I pulled out of the sale as the seller wouldn't negotiate.  I'd do this again unless the vendor could prove that the engine had the oil changed without fail at the manufacturers recommended intervals, especially if it was an indirect injection diesel.