Why is it so hard to buy diesel?

[tree monkey]

11 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

Round our way they paint their toe-nails red so they can hide in cherry trees without being seen.

Us tree geeks have special training to spot the buggers when they do that,  you do NOT want to mistake an elephants trunk for a branch 

[matty40s]

2 minutes ago, tree monkey said:

Us tree geeks have special training to spot the buggers when they do that,  you do NOT want to mistake an elephants trunk for a branch 

I just realised that I have one in the engine room, it's definitely not a branch on the side of the Gardner

[tree monkey]

3 minutes ago, matty40s said:

I just realised that I have one in the engine room, it's definitely not a branch on the side of the Gardner

That is not a starting handle

[system 4-50]

I am prepared to pay a premium to support traders to the narrowboat world that I respect and whose businesses I would like to continue, and I frequently do.  It is always possible to save a bit by patronising businesses that don't understand basic economics and sell at low prices that will eventually cause them to fail, but that damages their fellow businesses that are being run sensibly. From what has been said on here I believe that RoseNarrowboats are being run in a highly professional manner and I will certainly go out of my way to give them my business when and where I can.

[Athy]

8 minutes ago, system 4-50 said:

  It is always possible to save a bit by patronising businesses that don't understand basic economics and sell at low prices that will eventually cause them to fail, but that damages their fellow businesses that are being run sensibly. 

Not in the long run, because when the cheapo business fails, then customers will take their custom to the others. Hallmark Narrowboats made an impact on the market - briefly. Other builders who were around at the time are still extant.

[Dr Bob]

26 minutes ago, matty40s said:

I just realised that I have one in the engine room, it's definitely not a branch on the side of the Gardner

...and when they paint themselves green, they can hide quite well in an engine room.

[ditchcrawler]

6 hours ago, IanM said:

Yes, but on the last two or three times we've been through someone from the yard has actually pushed it open for us from the towpath side.

Same here.

[system 4-50]

1 minute ago, Athy said:

Not in the long run, because when the cheapo business fails, then customers will take their custom to the others. Hallmark Narrowboats made an impact on the market - briefly. Other builders who were around at the time are still extant.

You miss the point. While you are patronising a dying business you are avoiding giving revenue to the "good" businesses and they suffer (though they may not actually fail) as a result. You may return to the "good" businesses but they have still missed out. If there are a succession of doomed startups then the "good" businesses may never get a decent revenue and the service they offer may be crippled. If there are only enough customers to support "n" businesses then the introduction of "x" doomed businesses will be enough to make ALL the businesses fail, where the value of x for a particular n varies. 

[Athy]

44 minutes ago, system 4-50 said:

You miss the point. While you are patronising a dying business you are avoiding giving revenue to the "good" businesses and they suffer (though they may not actually fail) as a result. You may return to the "good" businesses but they have still missed out. If there are a succession of doomed startups then the "good" businesses may never get a decent revenue and the service they offer may be crippled. If there are only enough customers to support "n" businesses then the introduction of "x" doomed businesses will be enough to make ALL the businesses fail, where the value of x for a particular n varies. 

I don't think that I do. I agree that the law of survival of the fittest applies as much to boating businesses as it does to anything else. But who is to tell which are the fittest until they prov eit by outliving the rest? Are you suggesting that competition is unhealthy? Then I cannot agree.

[system 4-50]

1 hour ago, Athy said:

I don't think that I do. I agree that the law of survival of the fittest applies as much to boating businesses as it does to anything else. But who is to tell which are the fittest until they prov eit by outliving the rest? Are you suggesting that competition is unhealthy? Then I cannot agree.

We don't speak the same language so I'll leave it there.

[Rose Narrowboats]

1 hour ago, Athy said:

I don't think that I do. I agree that the law of survival of the fittest applies as much to boating businesses as it does to anything else. But who is to tell which are the fittest until they prov eit by outliving the rest? Are you suggesting that competition is unhealthy? Then I cannot agree.

I don't think System 4-50 is suggesting fair competition is unhealthy - and neither would I as it's what ultimately drives businesses and innovation forward.

The problem comes when, in a small pool a failing business is bought by someone new who props it up until they have run out of whatever funds they have, and then it's sold again to someone similar. This industry attracts what CRT used to call "lifestyle operators" with no prior experience of the industry "But hey, how hard can it be watching the pretty barges go past?" so there's often another starry eyed buyer to be found who then either goes on a steep learning curve or loses his life savings before finding the next hopeful. Here's a perfect example on Ebay

Apologies to anyone who takes offence at that, but in the time I've been in the trade I have seen a fair few of them. I'm convinced that exactly the scenario System 4-50 described was a significant factor in the virtual annihilation of the hotel boat trade about 15 years ago.

Worse still, if a first timer (be that hirer, hotel boat customer or potential boat owner) has a poor first experience then they could well be lost to the canals altogether.

Edited September 1, 2017 by Rose Narrowboats

[mrsmelly]

13 minutes ago, Rose Narrowboats said:

I don't think System 4-50 is suggesting fair competition is unhealthy - and neither would I as it's what ultimately drives businesses and innovation forward.

The problem comes when, in a small pool a failing business is bought by someone new who props it up until they have run out of whatever funds they have, and then it's sold again to someone similar. This industry attracts what CRT used to call "lifestyle operators" with no prior experience of the industry "But hey, how hard can it be watching the pretty barges go past?" so there's often another starry eyed buyer to be found who then either goes on a steep learning curve or loses his life savings before finding the next hopeful. Here's a perfect example on Ebay

Apologies to anyone who takes offence at that, but in the time I've been in the trade I have seen a fair few of them. I'm convinced that exactly the scenario System 4-50 described was a significant factor in the virtual annihilation of the hotel boat trade about 15 years ago.

Worse still, if a first timer (be that hirer, hotel boat customer or potential boat owner) has a poor first experience then they could well be lost to the canals altogether.

Just like the many thousands I have met when we were publicans who took redundancy and lost the lot taking a pub on or were going to " retire " in to a pub

[dor]

29 minutes ago, Rose Narrowboats said:

I don't think System 4-50 is suggesting fair competition is unhealthy - and neither would I as it's what ultimately drives businesses and innovation forward.

The problem comes when, in a small pool a failing business is bought by someone new who props it up until they have run out of whatever funds they have, and then it's sold again to someone similar. This industry attracts what CRT used to call "lifestyle operators" with no prior experience of the industry "But hey, how hard can it be watching the pretty barges go past?" so there's often another starry eyed buyer to be found who then either goes on a steep learning curve or loses his life savings before finding the next hopeful. Here's a perfect example on Ebay

Apologies to anyone who takes offence at that, but in the time I've been in the trade I have seen a fair few of them. I'm convinced that exactly the scenario System 4-50 described was a significant factor in the virtual annihilation of the hotel boat trade about 15 years ago.

Worse still, if a first timer (be that hirer, hotel boat customer or potential boat owner) has a poor first experience then they could well be lost to the canals altogether.

That ebay link is a laugh a line.  Note there is very little said about the boat except to say it has been overplated!

[Cheshire cat]

18 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

Just like the many thousands I have met when we were publicans who took redundancy and lost the lot taking a pub on or were going to " retire " in to a pub

Isnt this what Punch Taverns rely on? 

 

[mrsmelly]

2 minutes ago, Cheshire cat said:

Isnt this what Punch Taverns rely on? 

 

Sad but true. There is always another mug round the corner.

[Cheshire cat]

6 minutes ago, dor said:

That ebay link is a laugh a line.  Note there is very little said about the boat except to say it has been overplated!

When he's not selling narrow boat businesses he's selling hot tubs. Not much difference. 

[MtB]

15 minutes ago, dor said:

That ebay link is a laugh a line.  Note there is very little said about the boat except to say it has been overplated!

 

From the advert (seeking a buyer for their 'holiday hire boat company'):

I have built this small business which is very easy to run and can be done from your phone at home with face book and other online sales companies free of change. This boat will rent for a minimum of £750 a week 7 days and will rent all year round no problems 

 

We have 6 weeks worth of invoices to show takings from the Narrow Boat Hire

 

Simply take over our company, receive emails, take bookings and money and send customers to the boat with a coded key that can be opened at any time.

Customers will receive a DVD and a interaction manually and all our paper work in the post and simply confirm they are happy to use. They will send this pack back to you and they are fully insured and ready to enjoy there holiday.

 

 

 

I'd be fascinated to hear what CRT think of all this. 

 

No mention of commercial licence, BSS etc on the boat, and CRT require a premises with car parking (along with a load of other stuff) to run a hire boat business legitimately, IIRC.

[StephenA]

1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

I'd be fascinated to hear what CRT think of all this. 

 

No mention of commercial licence, BSS etc on the boat, and CRT require a premises with car parking (along with a load of other stuff) to run a hire boat business legitimately, IIRC.

But aren't they selling a used 57 foot long hot tub hire company?

[MtB]

On reflection, selling a business that makes (a claimed) £36k a year for just £52k makes no sense at all. Far too cheap. I suspect CRT are already onto them and have shut them down, hence the attempt at selling the boat.

Anyone legitimately making £36k a year for just a few hours work a week would know such a business would be worth circa £300k, if not a whole load more.

[stagedamager]

1 hour ago, Rose Narrowboats said:

Snip

Apologies to anyone who takes offence at that, but in the time I've been in the trade I have seen a fair few of them. I'm convinced that exactly the scenario System 4-50 described was a significant factor in the virtual annihilation of the hotel boat trade about 15 years ago.

Worse still, if a first timer (be that hirer, hotel boat customer or potential boat owner) has a poor first experience then they could well be lost to the canals altogether.

I think the Reverend single handedly managed that one......

Dan

[Athy]

3 hours ago, system 4-50 said:

We don't speak the same language so I'll leave it there.

You do not seem to understand that some newcomers have what it takes. Who would have given a rank amateur like Richard Branson a chance against established professionals like EMI and Decca when he opened that first shop behind Shelly's Shoes? He seemed to find enough customers to support his business, whereas within a few years Decca had fallen by the wayside. Just because someone is new to a business does not mean that they are doomed to failure.

We are not speaking different languages, simply expressing different points of view.

[Athy]

11 hours ago, Rose Narrowboats said:

" so there's often another starry eyed buyer to be found who then either goes on a steep learning curve or loses his life savings before finding the next hopeful. Here's a perfect example on Ebay

r.

Perhaps you know the hire operator who is selling the business on eBay. I don't (I don't think I've seen this boat go past our house although we are only 20-odd miles from P'bo.)

But what evidence is there of this being a failed business? I read it as someone who has run the business and built it up (he seems to have had a busy hiring schedule) and is selling it on for a profit.

[Tony Brooks]

My comment on the later points braised is that online selling needs to be very seriously scrutinised by all governments. A far as I can see very few provide full and proper descriptions of their goods and do not pay the same level of taxes pre sale as traditional shops. Personally I would like to see an "online sales tax" like VAT added to the price of online sales. I would also require P&P etc. to be contained within the advertised price. I would also like to see Ebay etc made jointly libel for all sales on their platform

Still that's utopian pie in the sky.

[MtB]

2 hours ago, Athy said:

Perhaps you know the hire operator who is selling the business on eBay. I don't (I don't think I've seen this boat go past our house although we are only 20-odd miles from P'bo.)

But what evidence is there of this being a failed business? I read it as someone who has run the business and built it up (he seems to have had a busy hiring schedule) and is selling it on for a profit.

 

Built it up by breaking the law, judging by the description of how the business operates in the listing. 

The boat cannot possibly have a hire boat licence, which is why he can rent it out so cheaply. 

[Athy]

3 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Built it up by breaking the law, judging by the description of how the business operates in the listing. 

The boat cannot possibly have a hire boat licence, which is why he can rent it out so cheaply. 

You could well be right, I don't know enough to comment on your assessment. But if he's operating "below the radar", he's hardly selling the business clandestinely, is he? Ebay is seen by millions of people.