Why is it so hard to buy diesel?

[Tony Brooks]

23 minutes ago, Rose Narrowboats said:

I'm sorry to hear that you have deduced we don't want your custom - selling diesel doesn't keep us in business so if we didn't want to offer the service we wouldn't. I don't see how our policy of not supplying under 50 litres of fuel can be viewed as an attempt to rip anyone off. Surely you must be aware that in almost all cases anyone who needs less than that effectively has a full tank and would be well advised to use up more of what they have anyway.

Ironically, the only other place round here I can think of that sells toilet parts doesn't sell fuel, so you'd have to stop twice anyway - or possibly more than that until you find out who it is.

I couldn't do a pump out for £15. Labour, chemical and disposal costs (we're on a septic tank so the disposal cost to us is about £10 per pump out by the time we've done a decent rinse) add up to more than that, so from a purely business sense perspective it makes no difference whether we do pump outs or not - it's just turnover.

I must thank you though because you've caused me to redo an interesting exercise.

You notional "shopping cart" of items adds up to about £145. I've just calculated after all the costs our clear profit is under £12 - any business analyst will tell you it should be three times that.

Mind you the same analyst, based on margins alone would advise us to sell nothing but postcards!

TBH my post really shoudl have had a smiley on it. As I said we normally buy diesel when we pump out and that can be once a week or so. The boat came back from Hillperton to Napton Junction on 62 litres of fuel over nearly 3 weeks so basically the thrust of my post is true (not the point A and B), I can't use Rose Narrowboats.

My marina is also not on mains drainage as far as I know and I can do a DIY pump out for £15 or as passing trade an attended pump out for £18. I note another hire fleet operator about two days south of my marina charges £13 for an attended pump out. As Nick implies some thing looks odd but its your business and your figures.

Luckily I know I can get whatever diesel I need plus pump outs only a couple of hours or so away from you.

 

[Rose Narrowboats]

36 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

My marina is also not on mains drainage as far as I know and I can do a DIY pump out for £15 or as passing trade an attended pump out for £18. I note another hire fleet operator about two days south of my marina charges £13 for an attended pump out. As Nick implies some thing looks odd but its your business and your figures.

£15 pounds for a DIY pump out I can see - no labour costs, and my costs included supplying Blue.

Maybe we're too thorough, but from downing tools on whatever else the person assigned to the pump out was doing to picking them up again is usually nigh on 30 minutes by the time they've run the hoses out, emptied and rinsed the tank, put everything away, washed up, passed the time of day with the customer and taken the money. Even at somewhere better laid out than our site I can't imagine getting the job done in under 15 minutes so £3 for labour is barely covering costs.

[frangar]

5 hours ago, nicknorman said:

Certainly. However perhaps you can now see the true motivation for his post. Now that you are aware of the situation, perhaps you could take some action the next time he does it, which unfortunately will likely be sufficiently in the future for it not to be obvious to anyone except me. For my part I am happy never to engage with him again.

So the digs you've had at me ( and others) over the years are fine? Never mind. I'm sure I won't miss your "engagement" with me in the slightest. 

 

[Rose Narrowboats]

1 hour ago, Athy said:

Rose, as usual you've made some interesting points and it is always interesting to hear an experienced trader's side of a a story.

On the other hand, if I had the choice of making £12 or not making £12 I would probably choose the former. It does sound as if a couple of your prices should go up a little, though.

I wouldn't walk past £12 either. On the other hand, if there was a £20 note on the other side of the street and you didn't have time to get both....

A lot of it comes down to economies of scale:  When we bought the business in 2006 it had a staff of nearly twice what it had now, and was heading for a cliff edge. I ignored the advice of two accountants and several other eminently qualified people who all said don't touch it with the proverbial pole and we got it straightened out just in time to endure the recession - whoopee.

To become more efficient we had to change the priorities. I had (and still have) an excellent painter who was "wasting" half his week on hire boat turnrounds, so I sent him packing back into his shed where he was much happier, but he was the exception as the way forward for the rest of the business was to employ fewer people over time and make better use of the ones who were multi-skilled (and I mean skilled, not jack of all trades) and able to work on their own initiative, and anyone new who has come in has to meet that criteria. What this means now the chandlery no longer justifies full time staff is that the person who ends up doing the pump out (which could equally well be me) would almost certainly be earning the company more by doing something else.

Locally you can earn £15/hr doing agency warehouse work, so it's a lot harder than it sounds to recruit someone on minimum wage to sweep up and mow a bit of grass until the next boat turns up - and I'm still searching for the holy grail of that productive task that can be done at random between pump out and diesel sales!

Edited August 31, 2017 by Rose Narrowboats
Tidying up.

[mrsmelly]

Not wanting to pour salt on any wounds but having owned a Hudson ( Brilliant boat ) I can state that every boat has drawbacks and The filler position and saddle tank location is quite honestly a very crap design. Great boats with a flaw for sure regards diesel filling.

[nicknorman]

15 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

Not wanting to pour salt on any wounds but having owned a Hudson ( Brilliant boat ) I can state that every boat has drawbacks and The filler position and saddle tank location is quite honestly a very crap design. Great boats with a flaw for sure regards diesel filling.

The saddle tank location is great. Fuel right at the bottom of the boat against the baseplate so no rapid temperature changes so no condensation. The filler is pants. Well actually, the filler itself is ok but the breather and interconnect pipe at the top of the two saddle lobes is far too small. The filler location is obviously fine when that side of the boat is bankside, otherwise it's crap and made worse by the slow fill rate due to the too-small breather. This is why I always offer to refuel when the filler is offside.

The gunnel filler point could have been moved further back but obviously the swim is coming in at that point meaning the flexi filler pipe would take up more valuable space having to come inboard before dropping down to the tank. So moving the filler point would not be easy and would have consequences. However increasing the diameter of the breather would be quite easy and it's a pity Steve never realised the extent of that problem and how easy a solution would be. But then again, how many times a month does one refuel?

[magpie patrick]

2 hours ago, frangar said:

So the digs you've had at me ( and others) over the years are fine? Never mind. I'm sure I won't miss your "engagement" with me in the slightest. 

 

Oi, Athy asked you (and Nick) nicely to drop it. Tittle tattle between forumites does the forum no favours, so now I"m telling you to drop it please. 

[mrsmelly]

4 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

The saddle tank location is great. Fuel right at the bottom of the boat against the baseplate so no rapid temperature changes so no condensation. The filler is pants. Well actually, the filler itself is ok but the breather and interconnect pipe at the top of the two saddle lobes is far too small. The filler location is obviously fine when that side of the boat is bankside, otherwise it's crap and made worse by the slow fill rate due to the too-small breather. This is why I always offer to refuel when the filler is offside.

The gunnel filler point could have been moved further back but obviously the swim is coming in at that point meaning the flexi filler pipe would take up more valuable space having to come inboard before dropping down to the tank. So moving the filler point would not be easy and would have consequences. However increasing the diameter of the breather would be quite easy and it's a pity Steve never realised the extent of that problem and how easy a solution would be. But then again, how many times a month does one refuel?

Yes I agree the item is no big deal. Probably no one ever commented to him re the location and problems with venting, I certainly didn't. As I said a small but pain in the aress fault on an  otherwise brill boat.

[magpie patrick]

40 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

Not wanting to pour salt on any wounds but having owned a Hudson ( Brilliant boat ) I can state that every boat has drawbacks and The filler position and saddle tank location is quite honestly a very crap design. Great boats with a flaw for sure regards diesel filling.

So, I can point at the filler cap on Lutine Bell, easily accessible from the cruiser deck and with a breather tube like one of Netherton's ventilation shafts and say "that bit is better than  Hudson" can I? You've made my day 

[nicknorman]

1 minute ago, magpie patrick said:

So, I can point at the filler cap on Lutine Bell, easily accessible from the cruiser deck and with a breather tube like one of Netherton's ventilation shafts and say "that bit is better than  Hudson" can I? You've made my day 

Yes I'd say so. However when it comes to propensity for condensation causing engine failure, I'd say your day was ruined!

[ditchcrawler]

14 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

Yes I agree the item is no big deal. Probably no one ever commented to him re the location and problems with venting, I certainly didn't. As I said a small but pain in the aress fault on an  otherwise brill boat.

I think a lot did, I have heard a lot of owners moan about it. But at the end of the day Steve built his boats how he wanted to and if you didn't like it then buy one off someone else.

[system 4-50]

3 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

I think a lot did, I have heard a lot of owners moan about it. But at the end of the day Steve built his boats how he wanted to and if you didn't like it then buy one off someone else.

I wouldn't buy a boat from a guy with that attitude no matter how good the butler was.

[frangar]

26 minutes ago, magpie patrick said:

Oi, Athy asked you (and Nick) nicely to drop it. Tittle tattle between forumites does the forum no favours, so now I"m telling you to drop it please. 

Please let's not go back to fluffy bunnies only.....that also stifles the forum. 

[nicknorman]

15 minutes ago, system 4-50 said:

I wouldn't buy a boat from a guy with that attitude no matter how good the butler was.

You can't. He's dead.

[magpie patrick]

27 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Yes I'd say so. However when it comes to propensity for condensation causing engine failure, I'd say your day was ruined!

Lutine's propensity for new and inventive forms of engine failure should never be underestimated!

[system 4-50]

25 minutes ago, system 4-50 said:

I wouldn't buy a boat from a guy with that attitude no matter how good the butler was.

I'll rephrase that.  I wouldn't buy a boat from any guy with that attitude no matter how good his butlers were.  

[MtB]

On 31/08/2017 at 21:02, system 4-50 said:

I wouldn't buy a boat from a guy with that attitude no matter how good the butler was.

 

I would suggest almost everyone who is really good in their field tends to develop a similar sort of attitude. It is widespread in the world of narrowboating, unsurprisingly.

There is no reason not to buy a Hudson then get a proper filler through the roof fitted. 

[system 4-50]

5 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

There is no reason not to buy a Hudson then get the design faults corrected afterwards. 

There. I've amended it for you 'cos I know you like that sort of thing. Alternatively you could buy a decent boat in the first place...

[nicknorman]

4 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I would suggest almost everyone who is really good in their field tends to develop a similar sort of attitude. It is widespread in the world of narrowboating, unsurprisingly.

There is no reason not to buy a Hudson then get a proper filler through the roof fitted. 

Through the roof could be a good idea, although it would consume space in the "engine room". The pumpout is on the roof, which is great. But as I've said, the major problem is the vent.

And thinking about it, if the filler was on the roof, the vent would have to be higher on some roof stack, otherwise there would be major overflowing. So not a good idea after all?

2 minutes ago, system 4-50 said:

There. I've amended it for you 'cos I know you like that sort of thing. Alternatively you could buy a decent boat in the first place...

What decent boat are you comparing and what is the relative cost?

[ditchcrawler]

42 minutes ago, system 4-50 said:

I wouldn't buy a boat from a guy with that attitude no matter how good the butler was.

I didn't. But he built his product the way he liked it and people bought them. Have you ever bought a car, the car makers build them the way they want to and you chose if you want one. same thing.

[nicknorman]

19 minutes ago, system 4-50 said:

I'll rephrase that.  I wouldn't buy a boat from any guy with that attitude no matter how good his butlers were.  

His attitude was that he didn't want to build a boat to a customer's requirements if it would look crap or "not work". That is a good attribute for a boat builder.

[system 4-50]

3 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

I didn't. But he built his product the way he liked it and people bought them. Have you ever bought a car, the car makers build them the way they want to and you chose if you want one. same thing.

But you don't pay carmakers a bespoke level of price!

[RLWP]

6 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Through the roof could be a good idea, although it would consume space in the "engine room". The pumpout is on the roof, which is great. But as I've said, the major problem is the vent.

And thinking about it, if the filler was on the roof, the vent would have to be higher on some roof stack, otherwise there would be major overflowing. So not a good idea after all?

Easier to put another filler on the other side

Richard

[MtB]

On 31/08/2017 at 21:45, nicknorman said:

 

What decent boat are you comparing and what is the relative cost?

 

Orion boats are as technically good in every way and look better. Much the same sort of price.

[nicknorman]

7 minutes ago, RLWP said:

Easier to put another filler on the other side

Richard

Maybe, however the other side has the batteries in the way. The important point is that on narrowboats, everything is a compromise.