Mullered Batteries.

[OldGoat]

32 minutes ago, Naughty Cal said:

Paying someone else to lift them?

 

1 minute ago, Tony Brooks said:

1. As long as you are not taking any notice of amp hours in, percentage of charge, and how long before recharging is required - if your meter has those readouts then NO it is not telling porkies. If you knew the efficiency at which your batteries converted electrical energy to chemical energys from hour to hour and the actual battery capacity and fed those into the meter than the other readouts would not be far out as well but a sit is all but impossible for a normal boater to know those things mostly it will tell lies.

2. As long as you are charging until the charging current falls to about 1%to 2%  of battery capacity then that is about as fully charged as you can get them and is far more reliable than those displays I mentioned above. It seems that you are.

3. It seems that you do have a fast charge and a fast discharge time so based on the above i would say you do have sulphated batteries that only have a small fraction of their original capacity.

4. It is perfectly normal for   charging to start with high amps and low volts. The volts then gradually rise as the amps drop to regulated voltage. The voltage should stay there or very slightly increase and the amps keep on dropping. How long it all takes depends upon the alternator rating, the bank size, the depth of discharge and the degree of sulphation.

5. The alternative to lifting a 220Ah battery is lifting 2 x 110 Ah batteries. Personally I would fit 4 x 110Ah.

Remember lead acid batteries would be fully recharged as soon as they had been discharged to any degree. That is not practical ut you should recharge daily at least.

 

 

Therein lies the problem. The Victron 700X series  (like its predecessor which I have) has an adjustment to allow for the fact that not all the "amps in" go to producing useful charge (something to do with a Mr. Peukert...). If you just popped the unit I and didn't set the other parameters then you're under recording the charge. There's a video here:-

https://www.victronenergy.com/blog/2017/04/13/instructional-video-how-to-optimise-the-bmv-700-series-sync-parameters/ 

That may well account for your problem.

[Richard10002]

32 minutes ago, OldGoat said:

 

Therein lies the problem. The Victron 700X series  (like its predecessor which I have) has an adjustment to allow for the fact that not all the "amps in" go to producing useful charge (something to do with a Mr. Peukert...). If you just popped the unit I and didn't set the other parameters then you're under recording the charge. There's a video here:-

https://www.victronenergy.com/blog/2017/04/13/instructional-video-how-to-optimise-the-bmv-700-series-sync-parameters/ 

That may well account for your problem.

Not if he is charging until amps drawn is 2% of capacity, or less.... which it appears that he is.

 

I wonder if, like me and MtB, (and many others probably), he isnt charging daily to as high a capacity as possible, then down to Amps <2% capacity on a regular basis?

[Nightwatch]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

1. As long as you are not taking any notice of amp hours in, percentage of charge, and how long before recharging is required - if your meter has those readouts then NO it is not telling porkies. If you knew the efficiency at which your batteries converted electrical energy to chemical energys from hour to hour and the actual battery capacity and fed those into the meter than the other readouts would not be far out as well but a sit is all but impossible for a normal boater to know those things mostly it will tell lies.

2. As long as you are charging until the charging current falls to about 1%to 2%  of battery capacity then that is about as fully charged as you can get them and is far more reliable than those displays I mentioned above. It seems that you are.

3. It seems that you do have a fast charge and a fast discharge time so based on the above i would say you do have sulphated batteries that only have a small fraction of their original capacity.

4. It is perfectly normal for   charging to start with high amps and low volts. The volts then gradually rise as the amps drop to regulated voltage. The voltage should stay there or very slightly increase and the amps keep on dropping. How long it all takes depends upon the alternator rating, the bank size, the depth of discharge and the degree of sulphation.

5. The alternative to lifting a 220Ah battery is lifting 2 x 110 Ah batteries. Personally I would fit 4 x 110Ah.

Remember lead acid batteries would be fully recharged as soon as they had been discharged to any degree. That is not practical ut you should recharge daily at least.

 

 

Once again Tony for good explanation. I think I'm getting it right, Dave Reynolds did our rewire at Calcutt and he explained, in simple terms what the monitor would tell me. I am watching the monitor now and half an hour ago they were still 12.3 ish. Fridge on and telly on. Just come back from two weeks away from the boat, all batteries isolated during this time. Ran engine for about an hour in the evening and then cruised two hours to where we are now. That is when they went down to 10 volts. As said earlier I ran the engine for about five hours today. That must have given them a boost. I do think they're on their way out. When I replace I may go the 110 route but perhaps add a couple more, there's room for them.

 

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

1. As long as you are not taking any notice of amp hours in, percentage of charge, and how long before recharging is required - if your meter has those readouts then NO it is not telling porkies. If you knew the efficiency at which your batteries converted electrical energy to chemical energys from hour to hour and the actual battery capacity and fed those into the meter than the other readouts would not be far out as well but a sit is all but impossible for a normal boater to know those things mostly it will tell lies.

2. As long as you are charging until the charging current falls to about 1%to 2%  of battery capacity then that is about as fully charged as you can get them and is far more reliable than those displays I mentioned above. It seems that you are.

3. It seems that you do have a fast charge and a fast discharge time so based on the above i would say you do have sulphated batteries that only have a small fraction of their original capacity.

4. It is perfectly normal for   charging to start with high amps and low volts. The volts then gradually rise as the amps drop to regulated voltage. The voltage should stay there or very slightly increase and the amps keep on dropping. How long it all takes depends upon the alternator rating, the bank size, the depth of discharge and the degree of sulphation.

5. The alternative to lifting a 220Ah battery is lifting 2 x 110 Ah batteries. Personally I would fit 4 x 110Ah.

Remember lead acid batteries would be fully recharged as soon as they had been discharged to any degree. That is not practical ut you should recharge daily at least.

 

 

Once again Tony for good explanation. I think I'm getting it right, Dave Reynolds did our rewire at Calcutt and he explained, in simple terms what the monitor would tell me. I am watching the monitor now and half an hour ago they were still 12.3 ish. Fridge on and telly on. Just come back from two weeks away from the boat, all batteries isolated during this time. Ran engine for about an hour in the evening and then cruised two hours to where we are now. That is when they went down to 10 volts. As said earlier I ran the engine for about five hours today. That must have given them a boost. I do think they're on their way out. When I replace I may go the 110 route but perhaps add a couple more, there's room for them.

 

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

1. As long as you are not taking any notice of amp hours in, percentage of charge, and how long before recharging is required - if your meter has those readouts then NO it is not telling porkies. If you knew the efficiency at which your batteries converted electrical energy to chemical energys from hour to hour and the actual battery capacity and fed those into the meter than the other readouts would not be far out as well but a sit is all but impossible for a normal boater to know those things mostly it will tell lies.

2. As long as you are charging until the charging current falls to about 1%to 2%  of battery capacity then that is about as fully charged as you can get them and is far more reliable than those displays I mentioned above. It seems that you are.

3. It seems that you do have a fast charge and a fast discharge time so based on the above i would say you do have sulphated batteries that only have a small fraction of their original capacity.

4. It is perfectly normal for   charging to start with high amps and low volts. The volts then gradually rise as the amps drop to regulated voltage. The voltage should stay there or very slightly increase and the amps keep on dropping. How long it all takes depends upon the alternator rating, the bank size, the depth of discharge and the degree of sulphation.

5. The alternative to lifting a 220Ah battery is lifting 2 x 110 Ah batteries. Personally I would fit 4 x 110Ah.

Remember lead acid batteries would be fully recharged as soon as they had been discharged to any degree. That is not practical ut you should recharge daily at least.

 

 

Once again Tony for good explanation. I think I'm getting it right, Dave Reynolds did our rewire at Calcutt and he explained, in simple terms what the monitor would tell me. I am watching the monitor now and half an hour ago they were still 12.3 ish. Fridge on and telly on. Just come back from two weeks away from the boat, all batteries isolated during this time. Ran engine for about an hour in the evening and then cruised two hours to where we are now. That is when they went down to 10 volts. As said earlier I ran the engine for about five hours today. That must have given them a boost. I do think they're on their way out. When I replace I may go the 110 route but perhaps add a couple more, there's room for them.

 

Sorry about repeating myself.

[BruceinSanity]

5 minutes ago, Nightwatch said:

. I do think they're on their way out.

I reckon they've shut the door behind them, walked down the path and are now opening the garden gate...

Three years is good, I'd just replace them like for like.

[Tony Brooks]

23 minutes ago, Nightwatch said:

Once again Tony for good explanation. I think I'm getting it right, Dave Reynolds did our rewire at Calcutt and he explained, in simple terms what the monitor would tell me. I am watching the monitor now and half an hour ago they were still 12.3 ish. Fridge on and telly on. Just come back from two weeks away from the boat, all batteries isolated during this time. Ran engine for about an hour in the evening and then cruised two hours to where we are now. That is when they went down to 10 volts. As said earlier I ran the engine for about five hours today. That must have given them a boost. I do think they're on their way out. When I replace I may go the 110 route but perhaps add a couple more, there's room for them.

=

Unfortunately the battery voltage is only any good for battery diagnosis (state of charge) after they have been rested off charge with no load on them or after (say) running the water pump for a few minutes and then letting them rest for about 10 minutes or so and then take a reading with no power being drawn.  This is to get rid of surface charge that gives an unrealistic high voltage.  A lod depresses the voltage and the higher the load the ower the apparent voltage.

If the fridge and telly were both running your 12.3 could be 12.35 or 12.4. Around 12.2 to 12.3 is normally considered to be recharge time to maximise the batteries cyclic life.

10 volts with both on may be 10.2 or so  and that is deep into "don't go this low too often or you will ruing the batteries" territory.

Sulphation reduces the batteries capacity. I reckon your bank now has a capacity of only a few Amp hours. That is why they went flat so fast. You can run as long as you want to but its the batteries that control how much electricity they will accept so I think for much of your five hours they were just sitting there all but fully charged and the alternator was just keeping the waning lamp out. It is either that or you do have one or more shorting cells but then a shorting cell gives a fast discharge time but a longer charge time. Either way it sounds like new battery time.

Don't fit more until you find out why these sulphated - I know its lack of charging, but why. You might as well ruin four instead of six.

I wish more boaters would do their power audit and charging calculations and organise their bank size, electricity consumption, and charging regime to suit.

Edited August 27, 2017 by Tony Brooks

[smileypete]

Agree with replace like for like.

Wouldn't recommend T105 types unless the charging requirements are fully understood. Though they may do OK with less ideal charging, if use is light - but if not, you're probably stuck.

BTW I reckon that recovering sulphated batts may not be an insurmountable problem, but at the very least it can take considerable time, and most people lose interest too quickly...

Edited August 27, 2017 by smileypete

[rusty69]

Tired,mullered, heavy batteries. Don't despair. Replace them today with new mullered lite ones. 

[cereal tiller]

Have reached the Conclusion that T105's are for Golf cars and require a Full overnight Charge on a Pukka Charger,proper charging rarely happens on  a Boat.

1 minute ago, rusty69 said:

Tired,mullered, heavy batteries. Don't despair. Replace them today with new mullered lite ones. 

Yoo gourt a good reason for saying that?

[rusty69]

6 minutes ago, cereal tiller said:

 

Yoo gourt a good reason for saying that?

Yea, im very probiotic. Not like my mate whos idiotic. 

Edited August 27, 2017 by rusty69

[WotEver]

4 hours ago, Richard10002 said:

Not if he is charging until amps drawn is 2% of capacity, or less.... which it appears that he is.

But... (why is there always a but?)... I don't believe we know the charging voltage do we? If he's only charging at say 14.2V then a charge current of 1% of capacity is probably well short of 100% SoC. 

[Richard10002]

11 hours ago, WotEver said:

But... (why is there always a but?)... I don't believe we know the charging voltage do we? If he's only charging at say 14.2V then a charge current of 1% of capacity is probably well short of 100% SoC. 

You're probably right.... I read in more than on technical document,somewhere that the voltage at which 2% or less is appropriate is 14.4V. Having said that, (and being pedantic), it's possible that 1% at 14.2V could be 2% or less at 14.4V?

[WotEver]

35 minutes ago, Richard10002 said:

You're probably right.... I read in more than on technical document,somewhere that the voltage at which 2% or less is appropriate is 14.4V. Having said that, (and being pedantic), it's possible that 1% at 14.2V could be 2% or less at 14.4V?

It's possible but we don't know. It's possible that it could vary by a factor of 10. If charging with a voltage much lower than 14.5V then the only way to confirm charge status is with a relative density reading of the electrolyte. 

[smileypete]

The Battery FAQ gives some comprehensive and very good info on telling when batts are fully charged, well worth reading.

It's all figured out for you there, pretty much.

Edited August 29, 2017 by smileypete

[nicknorman]

Anyway, battery temperature has a substantial bearing on battery charging. Mentioning voltages like 14.4v or 14.2v doesn't have any meaning unless the temperature is also quoted.

Edited August 29, 2017 by nicknorman

[MtB]

On 29/08/2017 at 21:37, smileypete said:

The Battery FAQ gives some comprehensive and very good info on telling when batts are fully charged, well worth reading.

It's all figured out for you there, pretty much.

 

What battery FAQ is this please?

Got a link?

[smileypete]

5 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

What battery FAQ is this please?

Got a link?

This one:

http://www.batteryfaq.org/

(Used to come up at the top on a google, it's dropped down for some reason)

[MtB]

3 hours ago, smileypete said:

This one:

http://www.batteryfaq.org/

(Used to come up at the top on a google, it's dropped down for some reason)

 

Thanks Pete. 

Following a brief read of that site, I I think I have a battery FAQ not mentioned there. I'll start a new thread asking it here. 

[WotEver]

1 minute ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Thanks Pete. 

Following a brief read of that site, I I think I have a battery FAQ not mentioned there. I'll start a new thread asking it here. 

Did you note on there where it stated that a battery must be fully recharged no later than within 24 hours of discharge?

[MtB]

16 minutes ago, WotEver said:

Did you note on there where it stated that a battery must be fully recharged no later than within 24 hours of discharge?

 

Discharged by how much?

 

[WotEver]

29 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Discharged by how much?

 

Just like the Trojan advice the faq site states 'after discharge'. 

[bizzard]

My cheap leisure battery and half a one, gets charged up when its voltage has dropped to about 12.2v, which is about a week whilst on my mooring like at the moment. I don't have it continually on a float charge at all. It is a cheapo Shield battery and is now 5 years old and only seems to have lost lost about 15% capacity in that time. Gentle use though. I do about once a month give them a bit of a ''wake up shock desulphing charge'' with my charger set to boost start, about 16v for an hour or two.  It only works the water pump and LED lights whilst on my mooring. When I go shopping and to empty my bog about 2 hours engine running it is enough to recharge it enough to last nearly another week. On a long trip, travelling along charges it up beautifully for when I moor up which might be for a few days when no recharging takes place whatsoever but I might power up my 200w inverter for a bit to watch telly or laptop to come on here to cause mayhem.  Pointless having batteries at all if you can hardly discharge them and have to muck about not leaving them discharged for more than 24 hours without fear of knackering them.  Folk who have them continually on charge or continually running engines and generators to keep em charged up might as well do away with them all together and run continually straight off a generator.  Torch batteries can last for years and years after being used and discharged bit by bit.

[Alan de Enfield]

4 minutes ago, bizzard said:

Torch batteries can last for years and years after being used and discharged bit by bit.

Not many torch batteries are Flooded Lead Acid Cells.

Totally different technology - Not comparing apples with apples (as you well know)

[Nightwatch]

For the few days I have been searching for replacements.

i can get 115ah Exide dual purpose for about £91 each. Collect,which can be arranged.

I can get Lion 110ah bog standard for £70 each. Including delivery.

wot do ya reckon.

[MtB]

4 hours ago, WotEver said:

Just like the Trojan advice the faq site states 'after discharge'. 

 

You don't know then?

[peterboat]

On 8/27/2017 at 14:52, nicknorman said:

Not really. In summer half of the year, ours are quite happy with 14.5v. 15.5v for an EQ in winter when they're cold. Don't these alternator controllers have different settings for different battery types?

Oh and by the way, we met a chap on the KandA who had a high tech Mastervolted boat. He had set up some Mastervolt relays that auto-started his engine when the SoC got down to 20% SoC (lithium batteries) and auto-stopped it at 90%. That way, they could leave the boat for several days /weeks with fridge and freezer etc on, and not worry about the batteries going flat. Latterly, following a complaint about engines running at 2am, he added a timeswitch function that prevented the engine running between 8pm and 8am. This is what you need. If only you had an engine that started reliably on the button!

Why dont they invest in solar? would save the engine a lot of work