First experience of canal rage.

[Tuscan]

There are a few working boat owners who act (just like some shiny classic owners) as if they are "different" from other boaters - following 2 working boats (not a pair) up the Braunston flight after the 2015 show who left the gates open as an example but this is rare. just as it is rare for any other style of boat but not so noticeable perhaps . A boat with a deep draft needs to stay in the channel to be in control but in my experience it is only the overhanging trees, lack of dredging or lack of confidence that stops boats passing with a few inches to spare.

[Trillian]

The biggest problem is lack of knowledge. I wasn't aware of the best way to pass (apart from it being on the right) and just use common sense and what I perceive to be good manners. This is one of the reasons I like this forum, I learn from other peoples experience/knowledge.

[mark99]

Nick you mean Roger Fuller not G Edges.

[FadeToScarlet]

Nick you mean Roger Fuller not G Edges.

Or was it Martin?

[Cheshire cat]

The biggest problem is lack of knowledge. I wasn't aware of the best way to pass (apart from it being on the right) and just use common sense and what I perceive to be good manners. This is one of the reasons I like this forum, I learn from other peoples experience/knowledge.

 

Exactly. Unless you have taken the trouble to find out you won't be aware that some boats need deeper water than others. It's just not on your average Joe's radar.

 

I have a friend who used to drive a very nice old Riley. One day I visited him to find it had been replaced with a younger MG. I asked why the reason for the change. He said that it had become a death trap because the cable brakes weren't up to the requirements of modern traffic. If he left enough room to stop safely then invariably sooner or later someone would overtake him and then sit in what was his braking distance.

 

In the end wondering whether he could stop in time killed his enjoyment of the vehicle so he sold it. He didn't blame the other drivers because they had no way of recognising the limitations of his car.

 

You can't go around assuming the other guy will have sympathy for your predicament. In many cases they won't recognise there is one.

[billS]

I have been shouted at for being on the wrong side of the canal whilst passing a boat on the right. I was reversing at the time.

[Jennifer McM]

The biggest problem is lack of knowledge. I wasn't aware of the best way to pass (apart from it being on the right) and just use common sense and what I perceive to be good manners. This is one of the reasons I like this forum, I learn from other peoples experience/knowledge.

 

Quite right! Knowledge, common sense, and I'll add a touch of respectful courtesy to all boat users.

 

Last week while on the Trent and Mersey we were backed up at a lock because a log had jammed in the gates, It was soon cleared, but not before a queue had formed, 2 boats in front of us and 3 behind, the last one being a working fuel boat. The working boat ran aground and was helped by the boaters at the end of the queue. We took a vote to let the working boat through first, the skipper was so pleased and he gave us all a free packet of firelighters.... it was great! A nice warm feeling was had by all!

[Paul C]

 

Exactly. Unless you have taken the trouble to find out you won't be aware that some boats need deeper water than others. It's just not on your average Joe's radar.

 

I have a friend who used to drive a very nice old Riley. One day I visited him to find it had been replaced with a younger MG. I asked why the reason for the change. He said that it had become a death trap because the cable brakes weren't up to the requirements of modern traffic. If he left enough room to stop safely then invariably sooner or later someone would overtake him and then sit in what was his braking distance.

 

In the end wondering whether he could stop in time killed his enjoyment of the vehicle so he sold it. He didn't blame the other drivers because they had no way of recognising the limitations of his car.

 

You can't go around assuming the other guy will have sympathy for your predicament. In many cases they won't recognise there is one.

 

Given the limited time, and limited learning capacity, during a hirer's handover from the hire firm I think anyone who is relying on other, possibly inexperienced, boaters to have more than a basic understanding of the "rules of the road" is somewhat vulnerable to being misunderstood.

[nicknorman]

Nick you mean Roger Fuller not G Edges.

Do I? I'd have to look back at the original thread from a few years ago but on a plane at the moment so too difficult! Anyway it doesn't really matter, the point was that the towing was being done competently and responsibly. Unlike some chap we encountered on the S Oxford who was towing an uncrewed modern boat who stern collided with various moored boats whilst he pretended not to notice.

[Captain Pegg]

Taking your paras in turn:

Nobody wants to collide with anyone but the responsibility for avoiding that lies with both parties.

You can't just put a few bags of coal on your boat which you might or might not sell, and them claim priority. Anyway if you go storming past everyone flat out squishing little boats into the bushes, you aren't going to sell much coal.

People who want to own and run their money-pit historic boats do so because they want to, that doesn't earn them any respect over anyone else. I don't mind them doing it within reason but it is like driving up behind an Austen 7 on the roads, OK from time to time if you are not in a hurry but you wouldn't want the roads swamped with vintage cars.

I see absolutely no reason why I or anyone else should make the passage of someone's anachronistic plaything as easy as possible. I will of course give them the same courtesy as I would any other boater, no more and no less.

Anyway you are gamekeeper turned poacher!

Nick,

 

You give the impression to me that there is something that vexes you about historic boats. I have to confess it's what makes me pick up on your posts and it brings out my flippant side.

 

I can honestly say I have never had any problems with steerers of such boats claiming priority or seen it with anyone I have worked with on such boats. As for 'playing at it' well that to me only occurs at events as part of the show. Otherwise a historic craft is on the canal doing pretty much the same as anyone else and I haven't observed steerers of historic boats habitually dress up as though it's the mid-1900s when boating.

 

I do maintain that the steerer of a deep draughted boat has a harder time than one of shallow draught so I will make their passage as easy as I reasonably can. Of course then I don't really need to bother about the attitude the steerer may or may not have. I recognise that not everyone will know what sort of boat they are looking at and equally that it isn't just historic boats that can have a deeper draught.

 

I may be gamekeeper turned poacher but I would be grateful if you explain why.

 

Jon

[nicknorman]

Nick,

You give the impression to me that there is something that vexes you about historic boats. I have to confess it's what makes me pick up on your posts and it brings out my flippant side.

I can honestly say I have never had any problems with steerers of such boats claiming priority or seen it with anyone I have worked with on such boats. As for 'playing at it' well that to me only occurs at events as part of the show. Otherwise a historic craft is on the canal doing pretty much the same as anyone else and I haven't observed steerers of historic boats habitually dress up as though it's the mid-1900s when boating.

I do maintain that the steerer of a deep draughted boat has a harder time than one of shallow draught so I will make their passage as easy as I reasonably can. Of course then I don't really need to bother about the attitude the steerer may or may not have. I recognise that not everyone will know what sort of boat they are looking at and equally that it isn't just historic boats that can have a deeper draught.

I may be gamekeeper turned poacher but I would be grateful if you explain why.

Jon

Nothing vexes me about historic boats. I have encountered a few owners who vex me due to their attitude of aloofness and superiority - but then again one also encounters such attitudes with the owners of non-historic boats and I don't have the means to determine whether there is a particularly high prevelance of it with HB owners or not. It sometimes seems that way but then again HBs are perhaps more noticeable and memorable.

 

So no, I dont hold some sort of prejudice against HB owners. What I do rile against is HB-worshippers who try to maintain that somehow these boats should be treated differently from any other boat, given respect and priority etc just because they are old. Nope, they are leisure boats just the same as all the other boats on the cut - which is what I mean by "playing" ie they are used for leisure and enjoyment like all the other leisure boaters who are also "playing".

 

As for those HB's used as coal boats etc well I see no difference between an HB a used for business purposes and a modern boat used for business purposes. And either way they have no inherent priority over leisure users.

 

And (just picking up on another of your points) if the steerer of an HB is having such a hard time, perhaps he would be happier if he sold it and bought a clonecraft instead? No-one is forcing him to suffer with his HB.

 

I would sum it up by drawing a comparison with the roads. Vehicles used for commercial purposes eg vans, lorries, don't have priority on the roads. I don't stop the traffic on a main road to let a white van man pull out of a side road just because he is in a van. Then again if an articulated lorry needs to straddle 2 lanes at a roundabout that is fine, but that still doesn't mean all private traffic has to give way elsewhere, all traffic lights must turn green as he approaches.

[ditchcrawler]

I met a boat earlier this summer on the GU--it looked like a brand spanking new Hudson-- which the steerer ran severely aground as we passed each other, accompanied by the sound of crockery smashing and wife screaming coming from the galley. My boat was just off the centre of the canal, his virtually on the towpath.

And I bet he told everyone you ran him aground. I have seen that comment on the net and even asked one boater "did they hit you" because if the didn't touch they didn't run you aground.

[Machpoint005]

And I bet he told everyone you ran him aground. I have seen that comment on the net and even asked one boater "did they hit you" because if they didn't touch they didn't run you aground.

 

Agreed. Somebody must have been going too fast to keep it on the wet bit.

[Captain Pegg]

And (just picking up on another of your points) if the steerer of an HB is having such a hard time, perhaps he would be happier if he sold it and bought a clonecraft instead? No-one is forcing him to suffer with his HB.

 

There's that over dramatisation again! I only said a deeper draughted boat is harder than a shallow one. I have no doubt your boat is harder to control in a tight spot than mine but I wouldn't suggest that you sell up and get a properly good looking boat. ?

 

JP

Edited September 8, 2016 by Captain Pegg

[Rob-M]

Passing a fully loaded John Jackson on Roach on the BCN whilst playing with the ex Working Boats Scorpio and Leo recently.

 

[Bee]

Passing an oncoming boat is pretty straightforward, problem is that after you pass the stern its awfully tricky in tight places to stop your bow from swinging in to the left, right where you don't want it to be when the second boat comes along.

[Jrtm]

Nothing vexes me about historic boats. I have encountered a few owners who vex me due to their attitude of aloofness and superiority - but then again one also encounters such attitudes with the owners of non-historic boats and I don't have the means to determine whether there is a particularly high prevelance of it with HB owners or not. It sometimes seems that way but then again HBs are perhaps more noticeable and memorable.

 

So no, I dont hold some sort of prejudice against HB owners. What I do rile against is HB-worshippers who try to maintain that somehow these boats should be treated differently from any other boat, given respect and priority etc just because they are old. Nope, they are leisure boats just the same as all the other boats on the cut - which is what I mean by "playing" ie they are used for leisure and enjoyment like all the other leisure boaters who are also "playing".

 

As for those HB's used as coal boats etc well I see no difference between an HB a used for business purposes and a modern boat used for business purposes. And either way they have no inherent priority over leisure users.

 

And (just picking up on another of your points) if the steerer of an HB is having such a hard time, perhaps he would be happier if he sold it and bought a clonecraft instead? No-one is forcing him to suffer with his HB.

 

I would sum it up by drawing a comparison with the roads. Vehicles used for commercial purposes eg vans, lorries, don't have priority on the roads. I don't stop the traffic on a main road to let a white van man pull out of a side road just because he is in a van. Then again if an articulated lorry needs to straddle 2 lanes at a roundabout that is fine, but that still doesn't mean all private traffic has to give way elsewhere, all traffic lights must turn green as he approaches.

I for one have a historic boat i have it for 3 reasons

1. Its a bit of hostory same as railways or planes. If noone had them they would be lost to time

2. I enjoy it yes its harder work but its pleasing knowing the results after a days boating or some work done to it

3. I love the smell and feel there is nothing like it apart from maid of oak (think it is)

Please show me a new ish wooden boat i could buy to get the same smell and noises and feel....? i would have to buy a 70-80s boat or oh yer a historic boat.

[ditchcrawler]

Passing an oncoming boat is pretty straightforward, problem is that after you pass the stern its awfully tricky in tight places to stop your bow from swinging in to the left, right where you don't want it to be when the second boat comes along.

I find that a problem when meeting people in tunnels if they follow too closely, I haven't encountered a motor and butty in a tunnel yet.

[Captain Pegg]

I find that a problem when meeting people in tunnels if they follow too closely, I haven't encountered a motor and butty in a tunnel yet.

I have steered a butty past other boats in Netherton Tunnel a few times - including Dave P with his head torch - and it isn't easy to keep clear of the oncoming boat as the motor slows and you lose steerage. I try to get the nose end in to the wall as the motor slows and keep it there then 'row' the back end over with the ellum once the oncoming boat has passed the motor. Then I brace myself for the inevitable "has your boat broken down then mate?".

 

At this point I suspect the old timers will say "put it on cross straps" which is the most common complaint I hear of the way Atlas & Malus are worked. However it isn't much of an enticement to get people to volunteer and enjoy a days boating when they turn up and you say "you are on the butty; we'll put it on cross straps".

 

JP

[nicknorman]

I for one have a historic boat i have it for 3 reasons

1. Its a bit of hostory same as railways or planes. If noone had them they would be lost to time

2. I enjoy it yes its harder work but its pleasing knowing the results after a days boating or some work done to it

3. I love the smell and feel there is nothing like it apart from maid of oak (think it is)

Please show me a new ish wooden boat i could buy to get the same smell and noises and feel....? i would have to buy a 70-80s boat or oh yer a historic boat.

I have no problem with your choice of boat. It pleases you, it wouldn't please me but thank god we do not all share the same taste and make the same choices - the world would be really boring. My only point is that you shouldn't think your choice of boat gives you any superiority or priority - not that I am saying you do think that way, but my impression is that some do.

[Captain Pegg]

Passing a fully loaded John Jackson on Roach on the BCN whilst playing with the ex Working Boats Scorpio and Leo recently.

20160721123839.JPG

I am simply staggered you managed to avoid each other in your battle for priority. ?

 

Seriously though that's a great sight to see coming the other way and definitely one not to get in the way of even if you do have a butty in tow.

 

JP

Edited September 8, 2016 by Captain Pegg

[Jrtm]

I find that a problem when meeting people in tunnels if they follow too closely, I haven't encountered a motor and butty in a tunnel yet.

I dont mind tunnels in fact love them towing a butty is fine when meeting something but if you both have loud exhaust it can be hard to tell the other person there is a butty behind.

 

The worst i have had was 3 boats behind me all of us going threw at a good pace we slowed for on coming boats but worst was when we cought up with a hire boat with hardly any lights on as we found out later they didnt know how the head light worked anyways they were going so slow 3/4 way threw all 3 of us were behind it out of gear or atleast i was.

Ill say now the 3 of us my boat and 2 modern boats all with experience.

 

When they got out just stopped as could see a boat coming at them and didnt go anywhere then started messing about trying to let me past when i was with the boat behind as we came down long buckby locks together we both went down braunstone together.

 

I couldnt work out what was going on and after talking to nick wolfe i dont think he could work it out either.

 

My point is knolage is also essential sometimes.

[ditchcrawler]

I actually meant I have not MET a motor and butty in a tunnel so don't know if I would be drawn into the bows of the butty as I passed the motor.

[Jrtm]

Dosnt normally happen as much in tunnels as the water is restricted so much and it dosnt change depth as much so the water amount avalable is a bit more constant and cant move about as much

[Captain Pegg]

I actually meant I have not MET a motor and butty in a tunnel so don't know if I would be drawn into the bows of the butty as I passed the motor.

I realised that but it's the butty that is the issue as it has least control. The direct answer to your question should be no as you can steer your boat and all should be done at a speed where there wouldn't be any significant hydrodynamic effects. Just give the butty steerer time to get the back end in to the wall.

 

JP