Define a vintage engine

[Sabcat]

The thread about the BMC replacement got me thinking when MTB pointed out (rightly I think) that an SR/ST isn't a vintage lump. I'm pretty sure a lot of us could say whether any given engine is or isn't vintage. Can anyone define a vintage engine though, describe the properties that an engine has to have to get the title, I'm at a loss.

[John V]

A pig to start ?

[Athy]

It's a tricky one. Unlike cars, for which "vintage" means built in or before 1931, there's no definite cut-off point. If the engine is large enough to need its own engine room rather than fitting under the stairs, and will not rev up to more than about 2,000 r.p.m., it may well qualify. It is probably British made, but not always (Bolinder, Knomhout). It was probably made by a company which no longer exists, but not always (Russell Newbery, Lister).

 

The clue is perhaps in the owner as much as in the engine. If the person does not appear proud of it, doesn't keep it clean and polished, and just sees it as that thing that pushes the boat along, it may not qualify. But here again there are doubtless exceptions.

 

Then again, it is difficult to say whether some engines are "vintage". You can buy, if your bank manager permits, a newly built Russell Newbury DM2. It will be a 2015 build, but essentially to a 1930s design and made by the same company that built them in the 1930s. Is it vintage? I would say not, I'd call it "traditional", but some would disagree. And what about Redshaw's "Lister" CS?

[Paul C]

Canals and canal boating in the UK are around 200 years old. Why does something between a range of (say) 130-150 years into that life, deserve a special label at all?

[junior]

A really old one.

[zenataomm]

I seem to remember we discussed this one a little while back.

The word "Vintage" is quite ambiguous and and means different things when describing different objects.

 

In the world of Wine and Cheese it's used to describe quality and superiority.

In the worlds of Clothes, Clothing, Cars and (I suspect) engines a vendor whilst still striving to capture the quality etc. label is really saying it's not old enough to be antique but is desirable because it comes from a defined epoch. It however becomes meaningless if the period isn't mentioned. I.E. "Vintage 1930s" or "Victorian vintage blah blah blah."

 

Merely sprinkling the word "Vintage" around in a sentence or advert tells you the individual either doesn't know what they are talking about or they're trying to sell you something.

 

I'm Vintage 1954.

Someone born yesterday is Vintage 2015

 

Edited once upon a twice as I had to try and remember when I was born.

Edited July 4, 2015 by zenataomm

[jonesthenuke]

Not sure I would call our Gardner 3LW "vintage at all. I was built approx 1960, so much the same age as myself and I would not want to be called vintage.

 

Equally its not "traditional", few if any would have been fitted to working boats.

 

So for me these engines are best described more along the lines of "old and desirable" but equally they are clearly built to a design which is now long surpassed. I guess "retro" is a reasonable term.

[Paul C]

 

So for me these engines are best described more along the lines of "old and desirable" but equally they are clearly built to a design which is now long surpassed. I guess "retro" is a reasonable term.

 

But a Beta 43 could be described as "retro" because its an indirect injection, mechanical fuel pump engine - chalk and cheese with a modern, common rail, ECU-controlled, turbodiesel which is now pretty commonplace in diesel cars, trucks and tractors of today, or even 10 years ago.

[Athy]

I guess "retro" is a reasonable term.

I guess not. If it had been built last year to an old design, that would be retro. Now, I appreciate that the LW design originated in 1931, but as your engine is 55 years old I think it deserves the epithet "vintage".

 

That said, if I am talking about my 2LW I don't think that I describe it as vintage. I might use a term such as "older style".

[Sabcat]

Maybe some engines, like my ST (1974 build), are just old.

[Athy]

Maybe some engines, like my ST (1974 build), are just old.

That's the stage before vintage - rather like the Morris Minor about 1980. Then it was just old. Ten years later it was a "classic" (translation: old but getting more expensive). Your turn will come.

[bigste]

Personally I reckon anything not in recent production comes under the vintage umbrella. If you disagree then tough, it´s what I think that matters, It´s my engine after all.

[Athy]

Personally I reckon anything not in recent production comes under the vintage umbrella. If you disagree then tough, it´s what I think that matters, It´s my engine after all.

And what is it?

[by'eck]

The thread about the BMC replacement got me thinking when MTB pointed out (rightly I think) that an SR/ST isn't a vintage lump. I'm pretty sure a lot of us could say whether any given engine is or isn't vintage. Can anyone define a vintage engine though, describe the properties that an engine has to have to get the title, I'm at a loss.

 

Since there is no definition of vintage for engines alone, my own age related reference point is anything built before mid/late 50's. This certainly discounts SR/ST's, but having said that they look roughly the same as HA/HB series which were introduced in late 50's.

 

Regarding Gardner LW's built as late as mid 90's with the first being introduced around mid 30's, it makes no difference to me, they are definately vintage. RN's of course are an even more extreme example, introduced in the 30's and still available at a price. Definately all in the vintage category though if only by design.

 

Other indicators are long stroke, slow revving, high torque for hp, heavy flywheel and generally over engineered (read heavy) design.

 

I ponder whether the term vintage will eventually succumb to a rolling scale as with road tax exemption. In say a 100 years time will a 150 year old vehicle still be non-vintage.

[Sabcat]

I think, to further compliment things, that some engines although not vintage are certainly classics from their age. I'm thinking BMCs and SRs (though probably not STs as they weren't used in the numbers) that powered the huge amount of boats that were put on the water in the 60s, 70s and 80s.

 

I think the same of the boats that they went in, the sleek looking steel hulled and fibre glass topped boats that make the time look really optimistic to me. A canal age all of its own.

[steamraiser2]

Older engines used in narrowboats generally come in two categories : classic and knackered

[kbarber]

Gardner 4LK, built 1956 and revs to about 2100rpm (I believe, we don't have a rev counter), to a design that was considered very advanced when it was introduced in the 1930s. But not traditional for a narrow boat. Ours was originally fitted in a bus (Bristol SC built for Eastern Counties O. C.). But I think I'd say it was definitely vintage - old design, either traditional or recovered from another use and sits in a midships engine room where (on a good day) the polish blinds gongoozlers as we rise in a lock.

[kris88]

I think I'd consider sr's and bmc's as modern classics.

Regards kris

[stagedamager]

Vintage for me would be when you look for spares and people laugh at you.

[mark99]

Anything that goes bonk bonk bonk not buzzzzzzzz.

[LEO]

Hi Guys

 

here's a vintage engine for you...

 

It's from a small boat used on the Norfolk Broads in the 1920's, no reverse, 2 stroke, there was also a nice early Gardner Marine Engine.. more later .. how do you post multiple pictures?

 

Prestwood Steam fair yesterday.

 

Sorry, but engines built in modern times to pre-war designs do not fall under the heading of 'Vintage'.

 

This problem was recently aired with the recently built 'light weight' - 'E'types' trying to race a the last Goodwood trials - although built to old designs (1960's) they do not qualify as Classics or vintage and quite rightly, were sent away.

 

We have a good display on the mooring, 2 Kelvin's, a BMC, a National, a Dorman, a JP and a Gardner, all pre war designs but none really 'Vintage', perhaps classic engines would be a better description.

 

Vintage to me (withe regard to engines/machinery) is something built before 1920...............

 

L.

Edited July 5, 2015 by LEO

[mattlad]

Anything that goes bonk bonk bonk not buzzzzzzzz.

Usually green. (unless it's a Gardner)

[DHutch]

Hard isnt it, i'm 28 and now see cars I grew up with in classic car shows (Mid 90's escort, say) and stuff mym dad had at my age is in the vintage section!

 

I think my the kitcar as a fairly new ish car, but its also at 24yo old than the above, and the engines from 84'

 

 

Daniel

 

 

....

here's a vintage engine for you...

What that engine needs is a boat!

[dave moore]

Having a Kelvin petrol starting diesel in our boat, I wouldn't contemplate a purely petrol fuelled engine on board. These days we use Thermostart plugs to fill the air intake with vaporised diesel, a system I much prefer. There was always a smell of petrol in the engine hole and back cabin when we used the original starting procedure and the rudimentary " teapot" carburettor was less than helpful when charging it with petrol prior to starting. Often one of the yard lads would turn up to watch, sometimes with a lighted cigarette...my plea to go forth and multiply wasn't always well received!!

 

Dave

[LEO]

Hi,

 

Here's a nice vintage Gardner Marine engine.....

 

 

Some were adapted forgeneral use.

 

The owner has several Gardners and usually shows a green 1L2, the engine shown is 'under offer' for an undisclosed price...................

 

L

Edited July 6, 2015 by LEO