CRT No Longer Wish To Meet With Boaters

[Sir Nibble]

how extreme is "direct action" likely to be? A licence strike won't happen, blocking a waterway hurts only us.

maybe blocking towpaths? especially in popular places. basically make the canals a spoilt day out for everyone BUT boaters? Spam the hell out of CaRT by a concerted campaign of reporting everything? Every overstay down to minutes, every lock problem down to a plank floating in the chamber, leave all swing/lift bridges open, remove signage, report every missing brick from every bridge. What does the law OBLIDGE them to do that can be obstructed to the point of impossibility?

Basically look after the things we need and utterly ruin everything else as an attraction to visitors by flytipping, noise, digging holes and causing obstructions.

War is hell!

[churchward]

I will refrain from commenting I thought we were "Friends" seems that we are only 30% Friends

more like a casual acquaintance then!

Edited August 15, 2013 by churchward

[billS]

 

Bit of a Bongo bongo made out of nothing story. I don't think CRT has disowned us yet.

Just wait till Narrowboatworld get hold of the story!

[pete.i]

TuT Tut you aren't following the forum closely enough they have all been well publicised and discussed here.

And that is precisely what the problem is at the moment. I have been following the posts on here so I do have a rough idea of what has been going on. Unfortunately not all boaters read these forums and if we are going to take effective action then ALL boaters have to be involved. I have to say that looking at the maliase that seems to affect British people as a whole on the standing up and making themselves heard front I do not hold out a whole lot of hope on that score. What is for sure though is that an official, organised and representative body of boaters is the only way to go (isn't the IWA "supposed" to be that). That will entail organisation, funding, publicity etc etc etc. I sincerely hope someone can organise all of that and if they do I would support whatever comes out of this.

 

From reading this thread I understand that this John Doddswell, or whatever his name is, is, or was, the CRT representative put forward by the IWA. I am a member of the IWA and if that is the case then my membership will cease and IF a representative boaters organisation comes out of this then my subscription will go to them.

 

I am not a Friend of CRT but I am a volunteer for The Canal and River Explorers. This does not entail me paying CRT any money but I do give them my time. My reason for joining that organisation was to catch the younsters early and teach them about the heritage, history, wildlife, water safety etc of the canals with the hope that when they grow up they will have an understanding and empathy for the canals. Obviously from my point of view as a boater then I am flogging a dead horse if CRT are only interested in Fishermen, cyclists and walkers.

 

I do hope that this John Doddswell (or whatever) has just been having a bad day and has, wrongly, taken it upon himself to utter these idiocies. I'm afraid that this is probably wishful thinking on my part and I fear that what everyone else has opined in this thread so far is the actuality of it.

 

Pete

[bassplayer]

Bit of a Bongo bongo made out of nothing story. I don't think CRT has disowned us yet.

As one of the few environments left that the powers that be have little control over, you bet they haven't...

[matty40s]

I have cruised 14 hour days this week from the Great Haywood Junction to the Thames.

I have seen not a single enforcement official or boat checker in that time.

I have seen brilliant service by ground staff twice in the last two days, attending within an hour to reports of stoppages.(Kingfisher was assisted through Lock 30 eventually).

I have seen a single Volunteer Lockkeeper (Hillmorton bottom lock)

I have seen what is happening with the "loaded" hessian sausages (these are already in place on the North Oxford, and several stretches of the South Oxford.

I have seen bridges falling apart, bywashes collapsing, lock gates struggling to stay together, towpath vegetation far higher than Jenlyns pics on the Grand Union, complete chaos at Banbury......

 

and I am worried for the future.

worried for my life, my hobby, my home and my enjoyment.

I came through oxford and at Isis lock, entertained around 40 gongoozlers (non paying) whilst locking through, and gave them a full throttle turn to enjoy......it won't be much to watch with no boats Mr Dodwell/CRT.

 

Wankers, liars and two faced civil servants pretending to be a charity.

[keble]

Just seen this thread. A sad reflection on how corporate life twists and turns, you realise their aims are nowhere near yours. It's horrible but it's real.

Well done you John and others for your efforts!

[tillergirl]

 

I think what he is saying is we can now justify not doing things such as maintaining the towpath for boaters, that quote comes from an email exchange concerning the overgrowth of towpaths and tree problem for boaters.

Well they may just change their minds when someone falls foul and injures themselves and sues for compensation.

 

John, its your email and I presume to do with as you choose. Might I suggest you forward it poste-haste to the government minister who had an interest in the changeover. And for good measure send a copy to the Charities Commission as well...............

[billS]

 

complete chaos at Banbury......

What happened there then?

[john6767]

I have been struggling a bit to know what to say here, as I have been very impressed with what John has apparently been achieving here in making some stuff happen, and I don't think this should take away from that.

 

If I read the quote from John Dodwell in isolation, I don't think there is too much wrong there, perhaps some wording, but the sentiment that boaters contribute 30% of CRT revenue, makes boaters massively important to CRT to me, I would be interested to see if CRT themselves think that really is not the case, as presumably these are his personal comments and do not reflect those of CRT? What business could afford to ignore a segment that generates 30% of its revenue, that would be commercial madness.

 

The whole idea that there are this huge number of people, quoted as 10 million but that seems like plucking numbers out of the air to me, who are bigger beneficiaries is great and I would agree, but not sure that really takes anything away from the fact the boats, and by implication boaters, are very important to CRT.

[mayalld]

how extreme is "direct action" likely to be? A licence strike won't happen, blocking a waterway hurts only us.

maybe blocking towpaths? especially in popular places. basically make the canals a spoilt day out for everyone BUT boaters? Spam the hell out of CaRT by a concerted campaign of reporting everything? Every overstay down to minutes, every lock problem down to a plank floating in the chamber, leave all swing/lift bridges open, remove signage, report every missing brick from every bridge. What does the law OBLIDGE them to do that can be obstructed to the point of impossibility?

Basically look after the things we need and utterly ruin everything else as an attraction to visitors by flytipping, noise, digging holes and causing obstructions.

War is hell!

 

I suppose it depends on what they intend.

 

I can see a kind of logic to saying "we can't devote staff time to meetings with everybody and we need to focus on a formal framework of interaction", but the whole`boaters know your place` thing doesn't sit well.

 

If they really intend this attitude then as you say, if we don't matter, we don't play our part as an element of their tourist attraction.

 

That would take co-operation. If they run something to attract tourists, we all stay away, so there are no boats to see. We demand things fixed, we report things. All in all we take note of the fact that they don't see us as their friends and we don't treat them as friends.

 

It is interesting to note that they compare 35k boaters to 10m visitors. Apples and oranges!

 

35k boats does not equal 35k boaters. Sure there are some single handers, but most boats have more than 1 boater, and some have many. Hire boats have many boaters.

 

Of their 10m visitors, far more than 35k are visiting as boaters.

 

Of the 260m visits to the waterways, what proportion are for boating?

[GUMPY]

Welcome to The Trusts view of the future,

Unnavigable waterways kept as a visitor attraction for the public

Lots of soft wildlife friendly banks.

Exhibition boats kept in little clusters so the public knows what boats look like.

 

You thought it could get better under CaRT ?

Its going to get crowded on the rivers where there is a right of navigation.

 

I'm so glad that I remember when it was good to be on the canals because that sure has become a thing of the past.

[cotswoldsman]

Cotswoldsman - is that the entire email from John Dodwell? If not, can we see the rest? It's difficult to be sure if he is expressing his own views, or passing on an official view, which he personally disagrees with, in a wry manner.

I am happy to print the complete email but to get the full story you also need to read the about 10 emails before where we were pressing for Towpath Maintance

 

 

deleted as jenlyn has published the email

Edited August 15, 2013 by cotswoldsman

[jenlyn]

This is the email I sent to john dodwell

 

To be a little realistic, the public are being asked to donate £3 a month. Where the public tend to gather most is well kept.

 

Lets not forget, I pay 70 odd quid a month plus do my share of volunteering, by keeping the towpath tidy etc.

 

A trend recently is people buying property by the Canal, then moaning about boats.I wonder how much they would moan if it was a stinking ditch.

 

 

 

Lets not lose track of priority please. Primarily, canals would be pretty dead without boats. In fact, CRT would be non existent without them.

 

 

 

Many boaters feel left out because the message from CRT is "usually" moaning about boaters. Like it or not, I am afraid that is a fact. One that should be changed.

 

 

 

Steve jay

 

Which inspired him to reply with this;

 

Steve

 

 

 

I agree about your last point. That’s why enabling people to have a better understanding of what’s involved in maintaining the waterways is important – hence NAG etc. But the message needs to go wider than that. Damian’s Boaters Update is one way - if you’d like to suggest topics to him, I expect he’d respond; you know he prints stuff from boaters.. And please get more people to sign up to receive his Updates. The Trust is getting better with the wording of stoppage notices – John may have seen recent ones about Barrowford on the L&L or Wolverhampton Lock 20. Jeff is planning a notice on Somerton Deep bottom gate on the S Oxford (it’s heavy to use – the notice would refer to the 12ft drop and the gate weighs 3.5t – and let people know it is due for replacement this winter); I hope this will be the start of a trend. All little things but I find it is the little things that matter. Members of Simon S’s team now attend the monthly management meetings of each waterway manager so they can encourage the engineers etc to recognise the value of telling people what’s happening. Small example – did you see yesterday’s press statement (attached)?

 

 

 

And Yes, boats are very important. We know towpath users like to see them. They produce not far off 30% of the gross income. But boats do not pay their way. I’m not suggesting they should. However, it helps to recognise that boats are only part of the picture – and an important part. The Government didn’t enter into that 15 year contract because of 35k or so boat owners but because of the 10m or so towpath users, the benefits of regeneration/ rural and town economies, health, tourism, heritage etc etc. You could argue that the public are being asked to pay £3m a month on top of the £39m from Government. Now I know that I too as a tax payer pay part of that £39m so its not the whole story. I reckon I get more value from my licence than a towpath walker paying £3/month.

 

 

 

Yes the public tend to gather at well kept places. Cause and effect to some extent? But looking at where they gather, it is usually because of a special attraction – SB/Foxton/Hatton/Fradley/ etc. We need the support of the general public for the Government’s £39m as boaters could never pay enough to keep the canals open just for boats- unless you want to increase licences to such a level as to make canals rich men’s playthings. We will need the general public’s support when in 9 years’ time the Trust starts negotiations on extending the contract beyond the original 15 years Those with long memories can recall when such places were unkempt and when towpaths (e.g. Oxford summit) were unpassable with a resultant washing of earth etc into the channel, making it shallower; or when working locks was a real struggle. But the improvements of yesteryear doesn’t mean the Trust should not strive for further improvements . At least those using the GU aren’t suffering the emergency stoppages that are happening on the L&L, Rochdale and Huddersfield – and that I guess owes something to the work Jeff’s team do.

 

 

 

People buying property and complaining? Nothing really new there – just an extension of the village newcomers not liking pig smells. Jeff gives them a similar reply – “you knew it was there when you bought – and anyway the canal’s been there far longer”.

 

 

 

Message from CRT is about moaning boaters? One of the problems I have to deal with internally is not enough boaters say well done etc (when justified) and so many of the messages CRT receives are about problems. That doesn’t mean they may not be justified. The £50m spent each winter on new gates and lock repairs etc etc seems to go unnoticed – as does the fact that the vast majority of the maintenance spend is for the benefit of navigation. Your help in getting these messages across would be most welcome.

 

 

 

And, of course, users don’t always speak with one voice – even within the boating fraternity, as you all know very well. I’ll finish with one example – Steve Haywood (now what he calls a liveaboard) in “Canal Boat”. “Overgrown towpaths don’t bother me. I prefer them overgrown. I come to the canals for the countryside, not to cruise in a linear park. I have a sickle on board; it’s the job of minutes to cut back a mooring space”. He was writing about the S Oxford and, Yes, I know he also had some criticisms to make – which have been taken up. Now, I don’t suggest we all follow his example with the sickle (I wouldn’t be keen on that every time) – we just need to be aware of other views.

 

 

 

Hope this helps…..?

 

 

 

 

 

Best wishes

 

 

 

John

 

 

 

 

 

oops, sorry mr sloan, you beat me

[DeanS]

So what CRT are saying is that....they need the public to fall in love with the canals....because they need their money....

 

That makes sense....BUT....

 

they are failing.

 

Examples:

 

1. Leeds Clarence Dock - Failed development on a huge scale. No foot traffic.

2. Sheffield Victoria Quays - Failed development on a huge scale. No foot traffic.

3. Skipton. Man with a tent trying to sign up friends of CRT. Minimal response. I watched.

4. Manchester. Lovely new marina..built by developers and Council. Getting worse each year.

5. Dragon Boat race in Leeds 2yrs back. CRT tent. Real foot traffic. About 100. News reported it as thousands.

6. Bridgewater canals....near Manchester...lovely for the public. Haven't seen anything of that standard on CRT waters yet. (Talking about lovely towpaths in towns or cities).

 

My message to CRT would be...you cant go and hide all the boats in marinas, where the public cant see them....and expect the public to see the canal as anything other than a place to dump their junk. There aren't enough ducks and swans around to attract 10million visitors.

Edited August 15, 2013 by DeanS

[cotswoldsman]

 

oops, sorry mr sloan, you beat me

deleted mine now yours was better as it included your email.

[14skipper]

Did wigan flight yesterday guess theres about 50 emails for a start !

 

14 skipper

[churchward]

Thanks for publishing the full email. It does put the OP cut & paste into a fuller context.

[madcat]

Has he got a hammer to go with his sickle?

All joking aside it isn't funny to see a partially sighted elderly person step onto some grass and end up in the canal because it was overhanging growth not firm ground. I'm no fan of totally manicured canals but a bit of grass and vegetation management is no bad thing. A lot of what is good for boaters is also equally important to other users.

[billS]

Well in the context of the full email, John Dodwell's response looks like part of a reasoned and reasonable reply - from a fellow boater.

 

I liked his point about the Oxford. I don't know how often Martty40s has been down the South Oxford, but he paints a picture of creeping dereliction. The infrastructure isn't great, but I have been up and down there every year for the last 10 years and it ain't no better, and it ain't no worse that any other year.

[RLWP]

 

 

Message from CRT is about moaning boaters? One of the problems I have to deal with internally is not enough boaters say well done etc (when justified) and so many of the messages CRT receives are about problems.

 

It's hard to know how it could be any other way. They are delivering a service and naturally will hear about problems

 

I suppose one way would be if CRT managers met more often with ordinary boaters - oh...

 

Richard

[Tuscan]

John , although I decided to join NABO council as a way to try and get CRT to listen , I was told by many of my colleagues of their ongoing frustration at trying to engage with CRT in a sensible manner and that it was a pointless exercise. I was convinced we should try again and initiated the first meeting for a long time before the summer which was pretty hostile due to our opposition of SEVM and some of the other planned changes. I have another meeting next month which will now be interesting.

 

I felt that the communication channels that you had opened up were nothing but positive but feared what has now happened was on the horizon. Now CRT is an independent organisation I fear boaters like captive train commuters will be subject to increased prices/regulation and poorer service. We all need to work together as individuals or through organisations like NABO and others that are non aligned to keep CRT "honest".

 

What I find deeply frustrating is that there was such a reservoir (and possibly still is) for CRT to succeed.

[cotswoldsman]

Thanks for publishing the full email. It does put the OP cut & paste into a fuller context.

 

 

Well in the context of the full email, John Dodwell's response looks like part of a reasoned and reasonable reply - from a fellow boater.

 

I liked his point about the Oxford. I don't know how often Martty40s has been down the South Oxford, but he paints a picture of creeping dereliction. The infrastructure isn't great, but I have been up and down there every year for the last 10 years and it ain't no better, and it ain't no worse that any other year.

But then you also have to see the other 10 plus emails to get the full context this was part of a long email exchange about lack of Tree Cutting and Towpath Mowing to make towpath in a state that boaters could moor

[billS]

 

But then you also have to see the other 10 plus emails to get the full context this was part of a long email exchange about lack of Tree Cutting and Towpath Mowing to make towpath in a state that boaters could moor

Well if that was what the beef about, I can understand his frustration. Do we really need CRT to provide us with nicely manicured edges where we can step of the boat to tie up along the whole length of the canal. I think there are much more important priorities.

 

Yes - a manicured bank is nice, but a bit of vegetation has never stopped me mooring where I want to - I use a gangplank, and cut the vegetation myself where necessary.

 

I think this must be a new set of expectations from newcomers to the cut.

[tillergirl]

I agree about the positive emails.............I felt compelled to send one after we'd visited the Anderton Lift and Weaver. The staff there can't do enough to help from the lift staff to the lockies. We've just done the Pontcysyllte Aqueduct and Llangollen Basin. Again a testament to the huge efforts of everyone involved. There will be another email going to Wendy Capelle with our thanks........its not all about criticism surely............a pat on the back goes a long way sometimes.