CRT No Longer Wish To Meet With Boaters

[cheshire~rose]

If the social evening with CRT in September is continuing this would be the ideal opportunity in a non formal way to discover how CRT would like to engage with boaters and for that matter boating organisations (outside the IWA).

 

As without a willingness from CRT to engage it is difficult for associations to move forward and debates on here and dare I say it articles on NBW will possibly be the way to get more of their attention.

 

Dave and I are booked for this meeting.

 

Up until this recent announcment I felt it was a great opportunity to get to talk to some of the people who the likes of us can't always readily speak to about my experiences of what CRT are doing (which is in the main a very positive view)

As others have mentioned, individuals experiences of CRT are coloured by what they see happening on their own patch.

 

I tend to have two patches (I am greedy) The patch I regularly use for boating, an area within 2 days cruising of Calf Heath on The Staffs & Worcs. This does not appear to have declined at all or changed significantly since CRT took over. I have been very impressed by the speed of the repair on the Wolverhampton 21 and the openness of the communication about the problem and updates on the process.

 

My second area of interest is The Chesterfield Canal and my experience of what Sean McGinley (CRT Area Manager) has achieved along there since donning a CRT hat is excellent. The way the people looking after this area listen to the people who know about the canal and know about how the canal needs managing is brilliant.

 

I think it is very fair to say that if it were not for this forum and Facebook keeping me in the loop about what is happening elsewhere on the system I would be feeling CRT were the sort of organisation I could trust implicitly and I would not feel any need to worry or complain. I do want to express my concerns about what I hear is happening elsewhere, the things that are unjust to boaters. I want to express my concerns that these things are not rolled out to the rest of the canals.

 

I am now a little worried about that social. I am worried that if the CRT reps that are due to go feel there is such a strength of feeling against them it will not be a social event but they will turn up to get their ears bashed then they may pull out and another opportunity for effective communication is lost.

 

I think as others have said, we do need to give credit where credit is due. There are a lot of CRT employees that are doing an excellent job and they are much happier working for CRT than they were for BW. They have embraced the new ways and are getting good results in the process. We need to ensure we give praise where praise is due.

 

I am also due to be involved in another stint of volunteering next month. Trimming overhanging vegetation on The Chesterfield Canal. In the light of this new communication I needed to think whether I still wanted to be involved with that but I don't feel we should cut our noses off to spite our faces. Giving cash is a different thing. Once cash is handed over we, as boaters have no say in where our money is directed. Volunteering to do something that improves the canal for boaters is still a very positive thing to do.

 

We need to be aware that while we (boaters) see ourselves as the most important canal users we do only contribute 30% of their income and realistically we all know that is insufficient to keep the canals navigable for us. We need to embrace CRT volunteer schemes in our local areas where we can improve the canals for our own benefit (cutting overhanging vegetation) and encourage non boaters in our area to join in as well. It will improve the canal for boaters at little cost to CRT

Edited August 16, 2013 by cheshire~rose

[RLWP]

Might be worth starting a new thread for this.

 

Yes, I have been trying to gather stuff within this thread and the one in which I was nominated: http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=58929&hl=

 

I'll start another one and see if I can get it pinned

 

Richard

[cheshire~rose]

 

<snip> If Vaughan Welch represents what is good for our canals, I think I'll sell the boats - I could never join the IWA while peopl like him hold senior office.<snip>

 

 

 

This ^

[Mick and Maggie]

Do you think a campaign to send letters to our MP has any mileage also what about PM on line petitions.

Petitions can be very effective. 38 Degrees is a campaigning site that has turned around government thinking on issues such as the sale of forests to taking the minister for the NHS to court and giving him a drubbing. 38 Degrees is an organisation with a great deal of understanding and expertise. It is also one that carries a great deal sway with the national press.

 

The important issue is not doing a knee jerk reaction - but to give a measured and proportionate response. The one thing that CaRT needs is a subscription membership and all that comes with it. The one thing CaRT does not need is any bad publicity. The public pick up the majority of the tab and cutting costs is a big item on the agenda.

 

If you choose to do something, you must get it right the first time.

 

At the end of the day, we want to change CaRT not destroy it. So CaRT needs to succeed but under a good, transparent management team.

 

My 2p

[scrumpylurcher]

I fall into a similar category, my experience with CRT as a volunteer in the Braunston area have been positive, and a vast improvement on our experiance with BW. It galls me that CRT use figures or licence fees as boaters contributions to the canals. They fail to acknowledge nationally the number of volunteer hours put in by volunteers who in many cases are boaters. We have an excellent relationship with CRT Ground Staff and the Volunteer Leaders, I am now seriously concerned as to the new direction that appears to be happening.

[BruceinSanity]

Search the forum for the ramblings of Vaughan Welch, an IWA trustee, branch chairman, CRT Council elected boater representative. Unless one can "infiltrate" to the point where people with such poisoned views are ousted, which given its close knit constitution seems highly unlikely, then I cannot see them as a way forward. In fact I see them more as part of the problem.

 

So yes, I believe that at "the top" the IWA is far too broken to change.

 

I had hoped it would be easier to change CRT than it would the IWA, and the inital signs looked good. But perhaps we have all just been taken for a ride, and none of itis "fixable"?

It's for those reasons and the IWA line on VMs and NCCCs that we've just resigned, having been members since we started boating in '75. I haven't even had a response to my resignation email yet, though I only sent it last week and Tracy Higgins at Head Office may be on her hols of course.

 

We may only contribute 30% of CRT's income, but that's still the highest per capita contribution, surely?

 

Will Chapman's experience with SOW shows how difficult it is To get a new organisation up, running and recognised in the teeth of the opposition from IWA.

[cotswoldsman]

 

 

At the end of the day, we want to change CaRT not destroy it. So CaRT needs to succeed but under a good, transparent management team.

 

My 2p

I agree 100% I certainly wish to support CRT but I also had wished that we would be able to be part of a process to all move in the same direction.

[billS]

I tend to have two patches (I am greedy) The patch I regularly use for boating, an area within 2 days cruising of Calf Heath on The Staffs & Worcs. This does not appear to have declined at all or changed significantly since CRT took over. I have been very impressed by the speed of the repair on the Wolverhampton 21 and the openness of the communication about the problem and updates on the process.

 

My second area of interest is The Chesterfield Canal and my experience of what Sean McGinley (CRT Area Manager) has achieved along there since donning a CRT hat is excellent. The way the people looking after this area listen to the people who know about the canal and know about how the canal needs managing is brilliant.

 

I think it is very fair to say that if it were not for this forum and Facebook keeping me in the loop about what is happening elsewhere on the system I would be feeking CRT were the sort of organisation I could trust implicitly and I would not feel any need to worry or complain. I do want to express my concerns about what I hear is happening elsewhere, the things that are unjust to boaters. I want to express my concerns that these things are not rolled out to the rest of the canals.

 

Again a post which expresses my own view much better than I can - you have all of my greenies today.

 

I have spent most of my boating time in the last 10 years on the eastern K&A, which is probably the worst stretch of canal in my experience, so I view every other canal with rose tinted spectacles. My annual trips up the Oxford and GU and beyond tend to leave me thinking "what are people complaining about?"

 

However, even the eastern K&A is in better condition that 10 years ago, and I hope it continues to improve - there is still a great deal of room for it!

[GUMPY]

 

Will Chapman's experience with SOW shows how difficult it is To get a new organisation up, running and recognised in the teeth of the opposition from IWA.

Not just the IWA it was also internal politics that contributed to the breakup of SOW.

Particularly one person.

[mango]

OK lets just put the financial cost of these meetings to bed. Firstly the meetings cost CRT very marginally. 2 meetings were at Milton Keynes CRT Head office so no real cost to CRT. Skipton meeting I paid for the hire of the room, the boaters that attended donated money towards the cost of the room I handed this money (as far as remember about £100 to Sally Ash as a donation to CRT) Leeds meeting was held at CRT office in Leeds, John Dodwell came by train but used the opportunity to have meetings with CRT staff during the day. Birmingham Meeting again I paid for the hire of the room (Those attending had a collection to help towards the cost). Rugby Meeting I again paid for the room (again those attending donated towards the room). Birmingham Social, boaters are paying £10 each the 11 people attending from CRT will pay nothing for the Buffet Dinner we are providing, CRT will be presented with £400 as a donation from the Traders taking part in the Floating Market. I know Jenlyn himself has funded all the meetings he organised.I am very grateful to Sally Ash who gave up alot of time to meet with us and communicate with us. These meetings were a 2 way thing and at the time people within CRT said they were very grateful, for example at out Rugby meeting Vince Moran did a 1 hour presentation on maintenance and the problems CRT have with financing it, this was a very good presentation and I know that those attending left with a far better understanding of CRT's problems and were able to pass that message onto other boaters. Over and above these meetings I and Jenlyn personally had a number of meetings with CRT all at their offices. At the Floating Market I made a point of contacting CRT Fund raising Dept who will be sending Chuggers. I should also say that I myself have paid £500 so far for the social in Birmingham I am hoping to recover most of this from the £10 charge but it does not bother me if I don't recover it all, I was passionate about this project of getting boaters and CRT together so money for me was never the issue that is why am so disappointed that CRT have decided to stop the process, I know that the other all felt the same, it took over our lives. (sorry about this but I am still very upset)

I appreciate the efforts to minimise CRT costs and be constructive at the recent meetings, but the problem is that CRT is being pushed in different directions by so many people and organisations. It might not cost much to attend the odd meeting but how much time is spent in CRT exploring the options and deciding the best way forward. Goodness knows how much time they have devoted to the problem of overstaying on moorings, for example. It is reasonable to expect CRT to interact with representatives of organisations that represent substantial numbers of canal users. Individuals within these organisations discuss and agree priorities, and should be taken forward to CRT is the consensus view of the organisation rather than individual views. Much has been said about independent boaters, but perhaps now is a good time to recognise that the best way forward is work with others, perhaps by joining existing organisations or forming a new one. We already have NABO representing those who put boating above other interests in waterways. NABO would be more effective as a campaigning organisation if it had many more members, and if they are not taking the right approach, then there is the opportunity of getting involved and getting elected to their Council.

 

By getting rid of BW, the government has removed a long term commitment to supporting the waterways, though it gave the new waterway charity – CRT – fifteen years of funding to give it a reasonable chance of being able to generate funding to make itself sustainable in the long term. Many of our waterways were saved through the hard work of enthusiasts, and keeping them in usable condition might need this sort of intervention in future. At present, volunteers tackle fairly minor tasks, but perhaps this will grow into serious work, as currently carried out by some of the canal trusts and societies still involved in restoration of derelict waterways. For years, CRT has been rather over-zealous regarding health and safety, but organisations such as Waterway Recovery Group and The Conservation Volunteers (BTCV) have managed to cope. Every penny saved within CRT means more money available for maintenance and other essential tasks, though we can probably all agree that the organisation could do a lot to eliminate waste in its operation.

 

Perhaps we should look at the National Trust, which was mentioned frequently when it was decided to that our waterways should be run by a charitable trust. How is NT run and why does it command so much respect from the general public? One obvious difference is that you can become a member of NT.

 

Anyway, thanks for not biting my head off for my comments, John.

[pete.i]

 

I think you are expressing the original point that I was trying to make, but much more diplomatically, with much more background information, and with the benefit of knowing the individuals involved.

 

Re the IWA, there appears to be great deal of hostility to that organisation on the forum. I don't know what the origins of this are, but I find it strange that no one on the forum is admitting to be be a member and trying to defend them.

 

They have a long history and credibility with BW and now CRT, so is it really naive to suggest that forum members could join it and change it from within to better respresent their viewpoints? Do people on here consider it too broken?

 

 

I am a member of the IWA and I have "admitted" that fact quite often on the forum, in fact I have said it in this very thread. I am not an active member of the IWA but I do pay my subscribtion and that allows (along with all the other subscriptions) the IWA to act on my behalf.

 

Not sure why I couldn't post that outside this quote box but I couldn't.

 

Pete

[Peter-Bullfinch]

I have made a small start with the initial planning for a meeting in Wigan for interested northern boats. A date at the end of October was to be proposed. This is a follow up to the Skipton and Leeds meetings, both of which were useful and informative. I am meeting the new North West manager Chantelle Seaborn shortly so I will seek her view in the light of these recent developments.

John, I was just about to contact you but I will give it a few days now. Don't be despondent. Your efforts have been really worthwhile so far. You are upbeat and enthusiastic about the canals and rivers and the way of life of those of us using them.

Dialogue and exchanging views are always valuable. My planning is only on hold.

[Athy]

 

The angling clubs get the permit charges as they rent sections of canal and other waterways.

Exactly, Jean. They rent it - from CART, who thereby derive income from the anglers.

Are you the same Maid In The Mist which was moored breasted-up a few boats away from our purple thing at Cropredy last week?

[Dekazer]

This thread prompted me to look up the sources of CRT's income. I found them on page 25 of this report: http://canalrivertrust.org.uk/media/library/3684.pdf

 

Boat licences and moorings (combined) were £26.4 million, accounting for almost as much as the Defra funding (£29.3m) they received. They are the third biggest single source of income after Government (Defra) and something called 'Investment Income', at £31.3m.

 

Donations from friends, public, other users etc? £0.9m.

[Guest]

I have made a small start with the initial planning for a meeting in Wigan for interested northern boats. A date at the end of October was to be proposed. This is a follow up to the Skipton and Leeds meetings, both of which were useful and informative. I am meeting the new North West manager Chantelle Seaborn shortly so I will seek her view in the light of these recent developments.

John, I was just about to contact you but I will give it a few days now. Don't be despondent. Your efforts have been really worthwhile so far. You are upbeat and enthusiastic about the canals and rivers and the way of life of those of us using them.

Dialogue and exchanging views are always valuable. My planning is only on hold.

 

I suspect it will be a question of does a new member of the senior staff wish to buck the 'party/corporate line' and all the inherent issues that could cause them or does she politely decline the invitation (and the reasons for doing so will be interesting)

 

It would seem clear if she is there it will likely not be with the blessing of Mr. Dodwell, that is unless there is a a re-think on this.

Edited August 16, 2013 by The Dog House

[Jigsawged]

Petitions can be very effective. 38 Degrees is a campaigning site that has turned around government thinking on issues such as the sale of forests to taking the minister for the NHS to court and giving him a drubbing. 38 Degrees is an organisation with a great deal of understanding and expertise. It is also one that carries a great deal sway with the national press. The important issue is not doing a knee jerk reaction - but to give a measured and proportionate response. The one thing that CaRT needs is a subscription membership and all that comes with it. The one thing CaRT does not need is any bad publicity. The public pick up the majority of the tab and cutting costs is a big item on the agenda. If you choose to do something, you must get it right the first time. At the end of the day, we want to change CaRT not destroy it. So CaRT needs to succeed but under a good, transparent management team. My 2p

Well said

[cotswoldsman]

 

I suspect it will be a question of does a new member of the senior staff wish to buck the 'party/corporate line' and all the inherent issues that could cause them or does she politely decline the invitation (and the reasons for doing so will be interesting)

 

It would seem clear if she is there it will likely not be with the blessing of Mr. Dodwell, that is unless there is a a re-think on this.

It has been very remiss of me not to mention the hard work Peter Corbett has done in arranging Boaters Meeting in the North. Peters support has been fantastic and I know like myself he is a supporter of CRT and does a lot of volunteering on The Rufford Branch. Foe me it has been a real pleasure to work with Peter on trying to move forward. I now feel guilty that I got people like Peter involved just to see it all fall flat.

[Guest]

Mmmmm 13 guests currently reading this thread - I wonder how many are senior CRT staff?

[Athy]

Twice in this topic, the "chaos at Banbury" has been mentioned. What happened? A stoppage or just lots of traffic after the Cropredy festival?

[cheshire~rose]

Mmmmm 13 guests currently reading this thread - I wonder how many are senior CRT staff?

 

with 13 pages to wade through they are not going to be getting much work done this morning!

[MtB]

I had hoped it would be easier to change CRT than it would the IWA, and the inital signs looked good. But perhaps we have all just been taken for a ride, and none of itis "fixable"?

 

I don't think you have been 'taken for a ride', quite the opposite in fact. CRT were open minded enough to try talking to the real boaters sensing something was missing from the input of the IWA and other organisations.

 

But my interpretation is this: Richard F is right, the absense of a mandate is what dun you in. CRT asked us to give ourselves a group label, we refused.

 

They weren't really asking for a label, they were asking us to produce a mandate. CRT saw this as failing to produce a mandate, concluding (incorrectly) there was none to produce.

 

Give ourselves a name and a mandate I think they will listen again.

 

MtB

[Tuscan]

I suspect it will be a question of does a new member of the senior staff wish to buck the 'party/corporate line' and all the inherent issues that could cause them or does she politely decline the invitation (and the reasons for doing so will be interesting)

 

It would seem clear if she is there it will likely not be with the blessing of Mr. Dodwell, that is unless there is a a re-think on this.

John Dodswell is meant to be an independant trustee and is not part of CRT's executive or management team so his blessing is not required and nor should it. He is however at least a trustee prepared to get involved and take his responsibilities seriously IMO unlike many of the other trustees . I suspect he is a future chair of the IWA.

[scrumpylurcher]

John, I see no reason of any sort for you to feel guilty, everything you have done was for the best reasons. CRT needed, and will continue to need, constructive comments from the users of its services. Reports I have read and heard re your conversations with CRT was that they were constructive, it is they that now choose not to listen to us. You are the one who got up and did something along with others

of a similar mind, that is to be commended regardless of the outcome.

[Jerra]

The one thing that CaRT needs is a subscription membership and all that comes with it. The one thing CaRT does not need is any bad publicity.

Possibly a little off topic but I feel this is a big mistake taken by CRT. I am a member of the NT and feel firstly a sense of "belonging" to something and secondly I get some small advantage from being a member free use of their car parks etc.

 

I am not sure what advantages CRT could give by my being a member but the sense of belonging would be there it doesn't come from being a friend.

 

Perhaps my experience is coloured by my knowledge of the Lake District where at times the "friends" of the Lake District can be a bit of a pain and rarely seem to be in touch with the people who visit (or for that matter live there).

[dor]

Very disappointing John, especially after my meeting last week with Wendy.

 

I had a meeting with Wendy Capelle from Wales and Border Counties at nantwich to discuss the signnage and allocation of visitor moorings there, as a large part of the long term moorings are not in use and would be better made into visitor moorings. I thought it was a good meeting, she seemed to take on board my comments and I thought this was a good example of C&RT getting more involved that the previous BW regime. It is a shame if this is not the case.

 

And while I am here, what is this problem some people seem to have with the Shroppie and visitor moorings? Most people say how great the Shroppie is because of the rings provided at these moorings compared to the dearth of rings elsewhere. I'm out on the Shroppie or Llangollen every week, and don't usually go for visitor moorings as I like to moor on my own. I'm never short of places to moor as when you look at it, the visitor moorings are a very small part of the available and suitable places to moor. The exception is somewhere like Nantwich where visitor moorings are definitely needed. Even then it is easy to moor up just beyond the visitor moorings if you want to.