Historic Boats for sale online

[alan_fincher]

, but may be of interest to some expressing an interest in historic boat ownership, but who may be slightly unaware of what it involves....

 

Well, I think the Parrotts's [sp?] did a pretty good job on reconstructing SICKLE, I wasn't trying to degrade the boats originality. Things that wear out need to be replaced. It's good to see it back in C1942 condition, and I don't think attempting to put a 'blade' back on would make much sense - but TYCHO's should be left on for certain. The original engines to both were Russell Newbery DM2's.

 

Well the current record shows that the Parrotts did a pretty thorough job on the back end and bottom, but very little work forward of that, other than very thorough blasting back to metal and applying very good internal paintwork, which has preserved it from further deterioration. A recent survey has identified that some work is now needed on the front end, and that will be done as sympathetically as possible in the coming months, but of course with each such work a little bit more original boat disappears - this is unavoidable. At least the Parrottsreplaced whole plates on the side and stern , properly hot rivetted, so those bits are "as original", even if not "actually original".

However one of the good things is that the round chines are deemed to be fine despite some pitting, because they were so thick in the first place, so unlike many historic boats where doing the bottom has also lost a lot of the sides, (the "footings"), Sickle remains far more original than many. The round chines, of course also mean less bottom, so whereas most bottom replacements are full width, Sickle's is a lot narrower.

The record shows which modern boat Sickle's original Russell Newbery DM2 is in - I can' recall the name from memory. It's other claim to fame is that it was for a while the back-pumping engine at Stoke Hammond lock - one of the so called "Northern Engines" in their diesel era.

Much though I prefer a 2 cylinder lump over a 3 cylinder one, I would not take "Sickle" back to one, because the Lister HA3 in there is far more appropriate to the period it is restored to. (And I now have my wish of a 2 pot engine in "Flamingo", anyway - although going on common sense, rather than authenticity, I would swap the two around to make the relative performance of each boat rather more balanced! ).

What about the steerer?

 

One of them is largely original, but due to have a second "lens replacement" in the next couple of weeks - the other one completely original!

[RLWP]

Alan Fincher - the six million penny man

 

Richard

[billS]

,

Much though I prefer a 2 cylinder lump over a 3 cylinder one, I would not take "Sickle" back to one, because the Lister HA3 in there is far more appropriate to the period it is restored to. (And I now have my wish of a 2 pot engine in "Flamingo", anyway - although going on common sense, rather than authenticity, I would swap the two around to make the relative performance of each boat rather more balanced! ).

 

 

Are they a bit like the tortoise and the hare then?

[alan_fincher]

Maybe I should of put it as "there is more original boat in hare than sickle.

David, fair enough, but that was of course not the statement I was challenging, where you said

 

....there is less "new" boat in hare than sickle

I have no idea of the actual detail of Hare, and would hence not even want to star to judge which had the most original steel. All I can say is that on some other working boats converted to "Water xxxxxx" boats in that era, the footings have been so shot that it has involved replacing most of the sides below water line. That said though, those I have witnessed directly have been "Grand Unions", and I don't know how well Josher survived in this particular usage.

 

Right sickle is 40 ish foot water bulrush was 37 ish so only 3 foot less sickle however has a totally new counter and sides for the complete length of the swims plus the entire plate infront (gunwale to chine) is new on port side and if memory serves starboard as well.

Yes, pretty well correct, new plates on both sides of the for a length hull forward of the swims However the actual swims are largely original, but with an area of over-plate each side added by BW.

[alan_fincher]

 

Are they a bit like the tortoise and the hare then?

 

Somewhat, at the moment!

 

"Flamingo" can be a bit slow to get going - probably not hugely worse than other working boats carrying a similar "load", (the conversion!), but we are spoilt by "Sickle" which is hugely quick off the mark.

 

Once plugging along "Flamingo" is absolutely fine, and swims superbly, with remarkably little wash - and unlike the heavily shortened "Sickle" will not attempt to instantly climb a bank if you take your hand off the tiller.

 

To stop however, "Flamingo" requires 2 days advanced written notification, and this can produce "interesting" situations, particularly when people coming the other way assume it will pull up as fast as their lightweight 57 foot Colecraft with a 50HP beta in it!

 

Sorry - all still to the subject of historic boats for sale, but again may be educational to those considering one, but who may be unaware of just how much they differ.

 

We do need to get the "Flamingo" prop looked at! - I'm sure things can be improved.

Edited January 28, 2016 by alan_fincher

[Athy]

I would say that you observations are very much on topic - just as, say, a person buying a 1930s classic car needs to be aware that it won't be fitted with ABS brakes.

 

I reckon that a nice bow thruster will sort Flamingo out p.d.q.

[WotEver]

I reckon that a nice bow thruster will sort Flamingo out p.d.q.

And an internal refit just like Dover. Do you want Alan Herd's number?

[pipistrelle]

I'm struggling to understand why anyone would want to keep the fact that they are selling a boat secret.

 

(Except for European Lady of course).

I feel compelled to reply as I joined this thread because I was looking for a historic boat and found one from reading it.

I'm selling my first boat. I haven't officially advertised it yet. Why? I'd rather try to sell it to another boater by word of mouth first and I'm considering putting it on brokerage for easiness as I'm moving and renovating my new boat. A big part of that is to avoid timewasters, another part of it is that I want to avoid thinking about selling it for as long as possible because it's a tough decision. I've had several people view my boat, so I guess word of mouth is working pretty well...

Oh and I still read the thread out of interest in old boats.

[Cloudinspector]

I would say that you observations are very much on topic - just as, say, a person buying a 1930s classic car needs to be aware that it won't be fitted with ABS brakes.

 

I reckon that a nice bow thruster will sort Flamingo out p.d.q.

I've owned vintage Volkswagens for many years and it amazes me the amount of money some people spend modifying them to in order to make them drive like modern cars.

[mark99]

What about the steerer?

 

 

Short service life and sacrificial just like the rudder.

[Derek R.]

 

(snipped) - and unlike the heavily shortened "Sickle" will not attempt to instantly climb a bank if you take your hand off the tiller.

 

 

Likewise with TYCHO, she'd take the cross country route given the chance! Big rudder - short boat.

[BWM]

Very cryptic...

[RLWP]

Very cryptic...

 

Not really. Big engine, big rudder, short boat. Take your hand off the tiller and it will try to run away across the towpath

 

Richard

[FadeToScarlet]

 

Not really. Big engine, big rudder, short boat. Take your hand off the tiller and it will try to run away across the towpath

 

Richard

The Bantam doesn't. But then, it has wheel steering. You do have to adjust, it was impossible to not touch the wheel for more than a minute or so but that's far more, I'd imagine, than Sickle can manage.

[MtB]

 

Not really. Big engine, big rudder, short boat. Take your hand off the tiller and it will try to run away across the towpath

 

Richard

 

 

I'd say the effect is far less pronounced than with big engine, small rudder, short boat!

[Derek R.]

I'm inclined to disagree.

 

The ratio of rudder area to hull length for a 70 footer is balanced as built. It responds adequately. The length of the boat enables a straight passage to be maintained. Shorten the length without decreasing the rudder size, and the effect of the rudder causes a greater response rate over the hull length. TYCHO, and I'm sure SICKLE also, can turn on a sixpence, but the drawback is without constant attention with the minute and almost natural corrections one takes at the tiller, she'll be off and heading for the bank, because the rudder is having a greater effect on the shorter hull length. With a proportionately smaller rudder this would be less so.

 

However, hull length and rudder area are not the only cards in play. There is also the hull length x breadth ratio, and the shape of the hull. The rounded chines also allow a quicker rate of yaw as the damping effect of square chines is absent. It's all a matter of balance, and in shortening a full length boat to nearly half its length without equalising the rudder/length ratio, you end up with a very lively boat.

 

Another aspect of the shortened Middle Northwich's is that due to the shortened length, they will roll that much easier for a same given weight transfer. This in turn will make any transfer of steerers weight from one side to the other cause the rudder to swing of its own accord in the direction of the weight transfer, not a lot, but enough to cause a change of direction immediately. Allied to this, is that 'heeled' over, even slightly, the props thrust is no longer central to the centre line of the hulls displacement giving another inclination in the 'wrong' direction. So if you want to leave the tiller to check on the oil pressure through the engine 'ole doors - you'll be up the bank before you're half way back! With our previous boat at 62' and square chines, we could take a casual look in the engine 'ole and be back at the tiller with no worries about drifting of the set course - without the need of tiller strings (which I never used on TYCHO save when locking).

 

They are lovely boats, but demand attention at all times. (Especially with an extra half ton of blade on the front!)

Edited January 29, 2016 by Derek R.

[BWM]

 

Not really. Big engine, big rudder, short boat. Take your hand off the tiller and it will try to run away across the towpath

 

Richard

Sorry, my post was moved away from its original context-the mystery boat for sale. Agreed on behaviour of the short boat/long rudder, had always assumed this was down to the direction of propeller combined with a boat mainly consisting of swim!

I hope someone finds another boat for sale soon to stop all the bickering and restart the conversation.

[Athy]

 

I hope someone finds another boat for sale soon to stop all the bickering and restart the conversation.

Nay lad, it's definition of terms, honest exchange of views and the naming of the parts. Not sure about the last of those, actually. Oh, I don't know: "half ton of blade, which in your case you have not got".

Edited January 29, 2016 by Athy

[alan_fincher]

Not too sure about "bickering".

I thought the suggestion that if anyone was possibly interested in a boat that is not yet on the market, but soon will be, that someone was offering to pass details of the interested parties to the owner was a very sensible way to handle.

 

I can't see why anybody should object to that, frankly, and I hope anybody potentially interested took up the offer.

[BWM]

Not too sure about "bickering".

 

I thought the suggestion that if anyone was possibly interested in a boat that is not yet on the market, but soon will be, that someone was offering to pass details of the interested parties to the owner was a very sensible way to handle.

 

I can't see why anybody should object to that, frankly, and I hope anybody potentially interested took up the offer.

That was the point I was trying to make, and the 'bickering' I mentioned referred to the reaction to that post which has run on a bit imho.

[Derek R.]

Just to clarify, the half ton of blade I referred to was the two inch thick x five foot long steel ice breaking blade as fitted to TYCHO in 1942. Whether it actually weighs half a ton was pure guesswork on my behalf.

 

But "bickering"? I only see a diversification of conversation. Many threads do that.

[RLWP]

Just to clarify, the half ton of blade I referred to was the two inch thick x five foot long steel ice breaking blade as fitted to TYCHO in 1942. Whether it actually weighs half a ton was pure guesswork on my behalf.

 

But "bickering"? I only see a diversification of conversation. Many threads do that.

 

It's easy to mistake the usual old boat owner's sledging as bickering if you aren't familiar with it

 

Richard

[mark99]

 

It's easy to mistake the usual old boat owner's sledging as bickering if you aren't familiar with it

 

Richard

Historic bickering is allowed.

[RLWP]

Historic bickering is allowed.

 

Only if it is an accurate recreation of working boat bickering

 

Richard

[pete harrison]

edit = deleted following a PM that answered my somewhat personal question .

Edited January 29, 2016 by pete harrison