Pumping the tiller...

[alan_fincher]

..........................and may not be very effective on moden boxes with shallow draufht an tiny rudders, but on a real boat it works.

 

I think it's effective on either. We probably draw little more than 2 feet, and I genuinely believe it works better than trying to hold the tiller at "any optimum fixed angle".

 

I don't know why, but I think it does, that's all!

[Albion]

I think it's effective on either. We probably draw little more than 2 feet, and I genuinely believe it works better than trying to hold the tiller at "any optimum fixed angle".

 

I don't know why, but I think it does, that's all!

 

I agree entirely. Albion drew about 2ft 3ins and with the Gardner at anything like full chat the tiller took a lot of holding over at any significant angle. However, using less revs and pumping the tiller worked well. It wasn't just imagination, it worked. It depends on the situation that you are faced with which technique you use at the time but that is part of being an experienced boater. You won't necessarily get it right all the time but experience allows you to get it right most of the time (unless there is a crowd watching when it almost invariably goes pear shaped)

Roger

[howardang]

Hi Folks,

 

Here's a good one to get the arguments running... when turning a motor boat, can you make it turn in less space if you pump the tiller?

 

Tiller pumping on butties is a recognised way of providing extra steering, but while recently taking my RYA Helmsman certificate the trainer said pumping would have failed me if I was doing a boat masters handling exam.

 

I think it does help, but then I nearly always do it (automatically). With such a large rudder on Victoria she is responsive, but of course you can still stall the rudder if pushed too far.

 

So to pump or not to pump? That is the question.

 

Mike

Has anyone comeup with the reason why the trainer soad pumping the tiller would fail a boat master?

 

Howard

[magpie patrick]

Magpie you are running the risk of turning into ChrisW. i.e. theory over experience. If George says it works then it does work, that is also my experience. It may have something to do with the design of the underwatwer hull and the size and depth of the rudder, and may not be very effective on moden boxes with shallow draufht an tiny rudders, but on a real boat it works.

 

Thanks David Comparisons with Chris W, oh dear It isn't just theory over experience, but my experience after a lifetime (Okay, I'm only 42, but I was steering boats as soon as I could stand up) that it DOESN'T work overall. When the question was asked I then thought about why, and reached the conclusion I did. In my experience on many tiller steered narrow boats from 24 foot long to converted working narrow boat pumping is less effective than constant tiller angle if you get that angle right. There are exceptions, if you are in neutral or at low revs, and if you are aground then the pumping can work although I haven't quite worked out why (rocks the boat?), and clearly if you are not in a propeller driven boat then pumping will work.

 

We're going to Sharpness next weekend, I'm tempted to have trials to see which is quicker overall to turn the boat round, pumping or not. Timed from pointing to Sharpness to pointing at Gloucester

 

edited to add: I really can't see why it would fail a boat handling course though.

Edited June 22, 2009 by magpie patrick

[mayalld]

I do know that when the Government introduced compulsory Driving examinations for PCV small buses (Mini buses with 17 or less seats) they afforded "grandfather's rights" to all the people on the Avon County Council register of approved drivers, but that was because we already ran a training and examination procedure which exceeded the minimum requirements of the new legislation. Perhaps something similar applied to the captains who were given a brief test when the Boatmaster licence was introduced.

 

There are actually three different domestic exemptions to the licencing of drivers of small buses;

1. All those who could show that they were already driving such vehicles at the time of the change were given a full entitlement without a test.
   
2. those who held a full Cat-B before a certain date got D1-not for hire or reward automatically.
   
3. Anybody who holds a full Cat-B licence and is over 21 can drive a minibus on a section 19 permit (charity vehicles) without a further test.
   

[Machpoint005]

I used the pumping technique when winding, sometimes, but only when it actually seems to be doing something. Egret has quite a big rudder for its length, though.

[churchward]

Pumping the tiller does make a difference when turning particularly when starting from a dead stop as it gets the boat winding on it's axis faster.

 

Also if you think it doesn't make much of a difference try being at a dead stop and without the prop turning (ie gearbox in neutral) pump the rudder and you will see the bow and counter moving in relation to the direction you are pumping. I have stopped at Sutton stop waiting to go through the lock and kept the boat straight in the channel with a few flicks of the rudder every so often.

[NB Esk]

This thread is interesting. I've seen old working boat films, where the steerer (especially of buttys) pumps the rudder/elum.

 

Trying not to be thicker than usual, but I can't get to grips with why the "backstroke/returnstroke" doesn't negate the action of the previous stroke........& the boat just stays still..........why would this be?

[nb Innisfree]

This thread is interesting. I've seen old working boat films, where the steerer (especially of buttys) pumps the rudder/elum.

 

Trying not to be thicker than usual, but I can't get to grips with why the "backstroke/returnstroke" doesn't negate the action of the previous stroke........& the boat just stays still..........why would this be?

 

I think it works the same as a fish weaving its tail, when underway a rudder works by reduced pressure on one side, less so I think with prop flow which more to do with water deflection' so pumping tiller should augment prop action.

 

I think

[churchward]

This thread is interesting. I've seen old working boat films, where the steerer (especially of buttys) pumps the rudder/elum.

 

Trying not to be thicker than usual, but I can't get to grips with why the "backstroke/returnstroke" doesn't negate the action of the previous stroke........& the boat just stays still..........why would this be?

 

If you just thrashed the tiller back and forward with the same ferocity and to the same angle both sides of straight that may be so. However, must people will be pumping the rudder to an angle back to a straight rudder position so both movements are pushing water in much the same direction. In any case my technique is to pull hard in one direction (ie the one where I want to effect the turn) and pull the other way more gently so it isn't getting the same force in both directions.

[matty40s]

If you just thrashed the tiller back and forward with the same ferocity and to the same angle both sides of straight that may be so. However, must people will be pumping the rudder to an angle back to a straight rudder position so both movements are pushing water in much the same direction. In any case my technique is to pull hard in one direction (ie the one where I want to effect the turn) and pull the other way more gently so it isn't getting the same force in both directions.

 

hah, pistonbroke used to be the name of our old pubquiz team. Pumping the tiller is effective once you already have movement round the central pivot of your boat. As churchward and others have said, an agressive pump in onedirection, and then letting your tiller drop back with the boats ongoing movements, then more agressive pump, works. And if that loses me my boatsmans cert then stuff it, I ain't stoppin what works for my boat.

[blackrose]

Thanks David Comparisons with Chris W, oh dear It isn't just theory over experience, but my experience after a lifetime (Okay, I'm only 42, but I was steering boats as soon as I could stand up) that it DOESN'T work overall. When the question was asked I then thought about why, and reached the conclusion I did. In my experience on many tiller steered narrow boats from 24 foot long to converted working narrow boat pumping is less effective than constant tiller angle if you get that angle right. There are exceptions, if you are in neutral or at low revs, and if you are aground then the pumping can work although I haven't quite worked out why (rocks the boat?), and clearly if you are not in a propeller driven boat then pumping will work.

 

We're going to Sharpness next weekend, I'm tempted to have trials to see which is quicker overall to turn the boat round, pumping or not. Timed from pointing to Sharpness to pointing at Gloucester

 

edited to add: I really can't see why it would fail a boat handling course though.

 

I more or less agree with Magpie, getting the correct angle on the rudder is probably the most efficient way of getting the bow where you want.

However, sometimes the stern doesn't end up exactly where one wanted it and using the tiller as a paddle (with just one or perhaps two quick strokes) can help to kick the stern out by a foot or so and thus then places the rudder at a new position further out from its original arc, which then allows the bow to be brought around even further.

I guess I've contradicted myself, but like others I have used the technique to good effect.

 

By the way, I don't know if its because the swim on my widebeam is more rounded for its length than a NB, but my boat swings around very easily at idling speed. Why do I see so many narrow boaters giving it so much welly to turn around? They often seem to fail to do it in one, even in wide open places like the basin where I'm moored. I guess it depends on the boat but I'm not sure all this revving is strictly necessary and just produces more forward motion rather than increasing the swing.

Edited June 23, 2009 by blackrose

[blackrose]

This thread is interesting. I've seen old working boat films, where the steerer (especially of buttys) pumps the rudder/elum.

 

Trying not to be thicker than usual, but I can't get to grips with why the "backstroke/returnstroke" doesn't negate the action of the previous stroke........& the boat just stays still..........why would this be?

Because one is done faster than the other.

[NBMike]

And who tests the tester's tester?

 

Fester Bester Tester (Mad Magazine )

[mykaskin]

By the way, I don't know if its because the swim on my widebeam is more rounded for its length than a NB, but my boat swings around very easily at idling speed. Why do I see so many narrow boaters giving it so much welly to turn around? They often seem to fail to do it in one, even in wide open places like the basin where I'm moored. I guess it depends on the boat but I'm not sure all this revving is strictly necessary and just produces more forward motion rather than increasing the swing.

 

I find putting some extra revs on (i.e. effectively accelerating) improves turning effect against forwards movement because of the momentum... and it's quicker too :-)

 

It's good to know I'm not the only one, and others swear by it also. Victoria has a huge rudder, and a few years ago someone was betting that people could not get their boat around in one from the Braunston marina back onto the mainline during the parade. Zac with Victoria was the only person to make money on it! :-)

 

Mike

[furnessvale]

I find putting some extra revs on (i.e. effectively accelerating) improves turning effect against forwards movement because of the momentum... and it's quicker too :-)

 

It's good to know I'm not the only one, and others swear by it also. Victoria has a huge rudder, and a few years ago someone was betting that people could not get their boat around in one from the Braunston marina back onto the mainline during the parade. Zac with Victoria was the only person to make money on it! :-)

 

Mike

 

It's a pity they weren't taking bets in 1998 when I did it with Alton. The kids on the bank gave me 6.0 all round with their score cards:-)

 

Of course Daphne and Gifford always did it. So easy with a butty pushing you:-)

 

George ex nb Alton retired

[BuckbyLocks]

"It's good to know I'm not the only one, and others swear by it also. Victoria has a huge rudder, and a few years ago someone was betting that people could not get their boat around in one from the Braunston marina back onto the mainline during the parade. Zac with Victoria was the only person to make money on it! :-)"

 

Mike

 

 

As you must have found out by now Mike, Victoria is very responsive (when the wind isn't blowing against you!) My feeling is that it depends entirely on the speed of the boat, and that is where most people get it wrong anyway. I was roundly bol****ed for paddling when I first owned her by the older boatmen in Gas Street, and rarely did it again, unless the engine wasn't running. What is wrong with a SHAFT?

 

That said, when the coupling failed on a trip boat I was steering at the time, I was able to paddle to the bank without any of the passengers being aware of there being a problem.

 

See you on Saturday?

[mikevye]

I've found a topic that phylis hasn't "contributed" to is this a first? Back on topic when space is tight and revs aren't an option then rudder pumping is definately the way out of the predicament.

[alan_fincher]

I've found a topic that phylis hasn't "contributed" to is this a first?

She's supposed to have been boating for a few hours again now, hasn't she ?

 

Given the track record, she probably hasn't got a rudder by now, so can't tell us how one should be used.

[carlt]

Given the track record, she probably hasn't got a rudder by now

I think the rudder fell off, Phylis' boat, at the design stage.

 

I don't think pumping her outdrive (ooer!) would have much effect.

[mikevye]

I think the rudder fell off, Phylis' boat, at the design stage.

 

I don't think pumping her outdrive (ooer!) would have much effect.

 

Feck Carlt, I only said she was absent on parade wait till she tracks you down on pumping her outdrive!

[matty40s]

Feck Carlt, I only said she was absent on parade wait till she tracks you down on pumping her outdrive!

especially if one of her spare propellers has fallen off already.......................................

 

 

oh, don't worry, little blue cal,

sorry , little green cal, sorry,

little torquoise......

will have a spare on board

[alan_fincher]

If pumping the tiller doesn't ever work, then there were an awful lot of steers at today's Braunston Historic Boat Rally that need to be told this!

[bristol & argo]

If pumping the tiller doesn't ever work, then there were an awful lot of steers at today's Braunston Historic Boat Rally that need to be told this!

 

well the comentator did keep saying it was preferable to pass to the left of the keep left sign (for those not there - it was on the end of a pontoon, passing to the right - was through the pontoon and the moored boat!).

 

I've found that pumping works at slow speed and low revs - particularly when the space is restricted and you don't want to pick up speed.

However, having squeezed past Vulcan the only option when the back end is held down by 12tons of butty is the moor power option and don't stall the rudder

 

I missed the sign by probably a couple of feet and had plenty of momentum going by then

 

At the far end, it was too congested to get 'round in one', but with the weight of the butty i got Bristol into a lovery handbrake turn and that meant it didn't touch the piling opposite an improvement on last year.

 

Simon.

[magpie patrick]

Results of experiment: to be treated with caution as they only cover the following

 

NB Ripple, ex-clifton cruiser 62 feet long

use of Ripple in Saul Marina and on the Gloucester and Sharpness

A very hot weekend with no breeze at all

 

edited to add: me steering

 

Tested manouvres:

 

moving off berth

moving down 200 yards of stroudwater canal to main canal (two sharp lefts and a u-turn)

Turning round at Gilgol Brook

Mooring (and in the process turning round) in Gloucester Docks

holding for swing bridges (sometimes for a few minutes)

returning to marina (reverse of first two)

 

Given everything said above, and my own comments, I express some surprise at what I found , as follows

 

The most stress free way of manouvring, using the least waterspace, was dead slow at low revs, our best departure ever (first two above) by some margin, although at 9pm when all the bridges had shut and no traffic.

 

"pumping" the tiller had no effect whatsoever under these conditions, nor did it have any when holding for bridges. Ripple stays put pretty well anyway, but minor adjustments were best achieved with holding the tiller at a good angle and briefly engaging gear (a second or so, at low revs). pumping the tiller with no revs at all just produced a clang as the rudder hit the end stop.

 

When manoeuvres were needed more quickly and the turn is tight (for the finger pontoons at Gloucester) "pumping" appeared to have a marginal effect so long as revs were high, but I couldn't test for time, waterspace taken or forward distance travelled. "pumping" got the boat moving slightly faster (you could sense a "rotational pulse") but ceased to have any effect afterwards. Like I say, I'd need to do it repeatedly under ideal conditions to be sure that "pumping" was having an actual, rather the just a perceived, impact on manouvrebility.

 

My guess is that if you try all the above with a GUCCC Town Classon the northern oxford the answer will be very different :lol:

Edited June 29, 2009 by magpie patrick