Pumping the tiller...

[mykaskin]

Hi Folks,

 

Here's a good one to get the arguments running... when turning a motor boat, can you make it turn in less space if you pump the tiller?

 

Tiller pumping on butties is a recognised way of providing extra steering, but while recently taking my RYA Helmsman certificate the trainer said pumping would have failed me if I was doing a boat masters handling exam.

 

I think it does help, but then I nearly always do it (automatically). With such a large rudder on Victoria she is responsive, but of course you can still stall the rudder if pushed too far.

 

So to pump or not to pump? That is the question.

 

Mike

[magpie patrick]

I think (recalling my rather ageing knowledge of fluid mechanics) that it would make no difference unless the rudder was big enough that only part of it was useful in deflecting the propeller stream. It works on horsedrawn boats and butties because it is acting like a paddle or scull. but on a motor boat the steering is from the action of the propeller stream being deflected by the rudder.

 

If it seemt to work, compared to holding the tiller in a fixed position, then it's probably because the fixed position you hold the rudder in is sub-optimal. Ripple goes round fastest when you start the manoeuvre from stationary and hold the tiller at about 60 degrees from straight ahead, and more and you lose effect. "Pumping" would work because the tiller position is on average better.

[alan_fincher]

I think it makes a considerable difference on boats I've steered, (real and "Clonecraft").

 

I do it all the time to get in and out of our marina entrance, and onto our (tight) pontoon moorings, or indeed just when winding.

 

If anybody is watching and thinks I'm a prat, I don't really care, as I think I'd probably "miss the hole" much of the time if I wasn't, (and look more of a prat).

 

If it's any consolation the archive DVD I've just bought clearly shows working boatmen using the technique, (IIRC to get away from the lay by at Bulls Bridge with empty boats), so if it doesn't work, they were misinformed too, it seems!

 

It does make me question whether the RYA helmsman thing is all it is made out to be, if that's what you were told.

 

Edited:

 

So that's one "yes" and one "no" so far it seems....

 

Could this be the new argument thread !

 

Need a certain absent person to "run the math" for us, I think.

Edited June 20, 2009 by alan_fincher

[wonderdust]

Yes works for me!

[jake_crew]

Does anyone think that the RYA helmsman exam is relevant to canal boating ?

[dor]

The thing to do is watch the wash as it comes off the rudder. Often when you turn the rudder, it splits the wash and you get nearly as much coming out one way as the other. By gently waggling the rudder whilst watching the wash, you should eventually notice all the wash coming out one way. There is some well-documented physical effect going on here in fluidics, where a fluid flow will tend to attach itself to a surface. When it does attach, with all the flow coming out one side, (experience will tell you what optimum angle to hold the rudder at - it will vary from boat to boat) you will find the boat will practically turn in its own length. Guaranteed to make any onlookers believe you are using a bow-thruster.

[MoominPapa]

There is some well-documented physical effect going on here in fluidics, where a fluid flow will tend to attach itself to a surface.

Coanda effect?

 

 

MP.

[Speedwell]

Seems a strange thing to want to do with a canal boat unless drifting. To turn faster, I give extra engine revs. Turning into a narrow entrance I would normally do from a virtual standstill so the effect of revs causes more turning than forward acceleration.

Arthur

[Chertsey]

I was told, when I was getting some very good teaching and advice on Chiswick, that it is very useful for getting the boat round on low revs with minimal (or even no) forward movement. It certainly seemed to work (also on Tarporley), though my experience so far is not extensive. The caveat was that it works best on boats with big rudders, like those old ones, and to varying extents on modern boats. I haven't really tried it on Warrior but will do in the next few days.

[Albion]

So to pump or not to pump? That is the question.

 

Mike

 

I'm pretty sure that it made a difference with Albion and I cannot see why the comment was made by the RYA guy about failing if you pumped the tiller.

Roger

[mrsmelly]

Hi Folks,

 

Here's a good one to get the arguments running... when turning a motor boat, can you make it turn in less space if you pump the tiller?

 

Tiller pumping on butties is a recognised way of providing extra steering, but while recently taking my RYA Helmsman certificate the trainer said pumping would have failed me if I was doing a boat masters handling exam.

 

I think it does help, but then I nearly always do it (automatically). With such a large rudder on Victoria she is responsive, but of course you can still stall the rudder if pushed too far.

 

So to pump or not to pump? That is the question.

 

Mike

 

Hi

 

I dont know who did your RYA Helsmans doobry but speaking as the Holder of a Boatmasters licence he was talking claptrap, and yes pumping the tiller often helps the turn quicker as does using more revs

[dave moore]

Hi all

I too fail to understand the "Fail if you pump" logic of the RYA examiner. I've always found that I can turn more quickly in a confined space with this technique than simply by holding the ellum hard over. Quite how the RYA can claim expertise in narrowboats and their handling is also beyond me..... a few years ago I gave Resolute's tiller to a qualified "Boatmaster3" licence holder.....the attempts to remain parallel to the towpath, despite the channel being elsewhere, was painful to behold. When I queried this I was told "The course was mainly theory"....thank Christ I learned to steer with a tiller, not a manual or powerpoint presentation in my hand or before my eyes.

Sorry...grump alert!!!

Cheers

Dave

[David Schweizer]

Hi all

I too fail to understand the "Fail if you pump" logic of the RYA examiner. I've always found that I can turn more quickly in a confined space with this technique than simply by holding the ellum hard over. Quite how the RYA can claim expertise in narrowboats and their handling is also beyond me..... a few years ago I gave Resolute's tiller to a qualified "Boatmaster3" licence holder.....the attempts to remain parallel to the towpath, despite the channel being elsewhere, was painful to behold. When I queried this I was told "The course was mainly theory"....thank Christ I learned to steer with a tiller, not a manual or powerpoint presentation in my hand or before my eyes.

Sorry...grump alert!!!

Cheers

Dave

Are you sure that the person claiming a to possess a Boatamaster's licence actually had one, and not a RYA helmsman's certificate, which is an entirely different thing.

 

I aquired my Boatmaster's Licence ten years ago and whilst there is a lot of thoery to learn there is also a great deal of paractical training as well, which occupied two half day sessions each week for a couple of months. The practical examination which was conducted by Merchant Navy Captain, appointed by the Board of Trade (as was), took half a day.

 

One of the things I had to demonstrate was my abilty to steer the boat without power, which incvolved (yes you have guessed) pumping the tiller. I also had to demonstrate steering the boat without the tiller, using paddle action. There was also an oral theory examination which lasted about an hour and took place in the afternoon. so quite an ordeal, which I fortunately passed.

[kitman]

I'm pretty sure I pumped the tiller whilst turning when I did my boatmaster's, no fail here. MCA are more interested in your knowledge of passenger safety, fire, evacuation, man overboard etc.

[ditchcrawler]

Are you sure that the person claiming a to possess a Boatamaster's licence actually had one, and not a RYA helmsman's certificate, which is an entirely different thing.

 

I aquired my Boatmaster's Licence ten years ago and whilst there is a lot of thoery to learn there is also a great deal of paractical training as well, which occupied two half day sessions each week for a couple of months. The practical examination which was conducted by Merchant Navy Captain, appointed by the Board of Trade (as was), took half a day.

 

One of the things I had to demonstrate was my abilty to steer the boat without power, which incvolved (yes you have guessed) pumping the tiller. I also had to demonstrate steering the boat without the tiller, using paddle action. There was also an oral theory examination which lasted about an hour and took place in the afternoon. so quite an ordeal, which I fortunately passed.

And did you blow your horn at every bridge hole?

[Hairy-Neil]

I aquired my Boatmaster's Licence ten years ago and whilst there is a lot of thoery to learn there is also a great deal of paractical training as well, which occupied two half day sessions each week for a couple of months. The practical examination which was conducted by Merchant Navy Captain, appointed by the Board of Trade (as was), took half a day.

 

 

Is there any obligation to attend any sort of recognised course before taking the exam? When the legislation was rushed in after the Marchioness disaster, existing trip boat steerers were often examined en bloc and having only a few minutes each at the tiller on a straight length of canal between two winding holes, just a few hundred yards apart.

 

In one case I've heard about, after he had passed everyone off as fit, the examiner asked if he could have a go himself as he had never before steered a boat with a tiller......

 

And who tests the tester's tester?

[David Schweizer]

And did you blow your horn at every bridge hole?

Only one bridge and that was right next to the lock, so No. But I did blow the horn in advance of the two right angle bends either side of Avoncliffe Aqueduct. Visibilty of any craft on the aqueduct is Nil, so it is actually quite important.

 

 

 

Is there any obligation to attend any sort of recognised course before taking the exam? When the legislation was rushed in after the Marchioness disaster, existing trip boat steerers were often examined en bloc and having only a few minutes each at the tiller on a straight length of canal between two winding holes, just a few hundred yards apart.

 

In one case I've heard about, after he had passed everyone off as fit, the examiner asked if he could have a go himself as he had never before steered a boat with a tiller......

 

And who tests the tester's tester?

I don't know whether there is an official training programme, but I was certainly given a sylabus by the K&A Trust, who undertook the training, I still have it somewhere. The examiner was very thorough, and apparently was with all the previous captains who had taken the exam.

 

I do know that when the Government introduced compulsory Driving examinations for PCV small buses (Mini buses with 17 or less seats) they afforded "grandfather's rights" to all the people on the Avon County Council register of approved drivers, but that was because we already ran a training and examination procedure which exceeded the minimum requirements of the new legislation. Perhaps something similar applied to the captains who were given a brief test when the Boatmaster licence was introduced.

Edited June 20, 2009 by David Schweizer

[PhilR]

I always thought that pumping (or paddling!) the rudder is a technique employed when in neutral and holding a boat in position when not using any propeller thrust - very useful when holding position/direction whilst waiting for a lock in mid channel - much better than loads of blue/black smoke and excessive engine revs!

[Hairy-Neil]

When the requirement for a Boatmasters 3 came it I was regularly steering a tripper, though only a 12 seats so exempt at that time. I no longer do that work.

 

Back in the 1980s I worked as a fitter on PSV bus and coaches. At that time a car license was suficient to drive even a double decker so long as there were no fare paying passengers and I regularly drove vehicles on road test and for annual inspections. Lots of community, school, scout group and dance troups, as well as bus preservation groups ran vehicles on this basis. Around 1990 regulations changed, requiring a test to be taken to drive even the empty coach. Anyone driving under the regs current at the time had 6 months in which to claim the new category under grandfathers rights. No test whatsoever was needed, just a statement from the transport manager that you were driving thus.

[Speedwell]

And did you blow your horn at every bridge hole?

Don't knock it! I wouldn't suggest it for every narrowboat at every bridge but, if the commercial barge, that came through a blind bridge hole on the Aire and Calder, had used such a simple technique, it should have saved a clean underwear moment for us.

Arthur

[ditchcrawler]

Don't knock it! I wouldn't suggest it for every narrowboat at every bridge but, if the commercial barge, that came through a blind bridge hole on the Aire and Calder, had used such a simple technique, it should have saved a clean underwear moment for us.

Arthur

It was said Tongue in cheek, yes horses for courses, but I remember a posting from one chap who said he was expected to blow his horn as he approached every bridge on a narrow canal.

[furnessvale]

Hi Folks,

 

Here's a good one to get the arguments running... when turning a motor boat, can you make it turn in less space if you pump the tiller?

 

Tiller pumping on butties is a recognised way of providing extra steering, but while recently taking my RYA Helmsman certificate the trainer said pumping would have failed me if I was doing a boat masters handling exam.

 

I think it does help, but then I nearly always do it (automatically). With such a large rudder on Victoria she is responsive, but of course you can still stall the rudder if pushed too far.

 

So to pump or not to pump? That is the question.

 

Mike

 

I find pumping works at low speeds with both Alton (big Woolwich) and Judith Mary (71'6" restaurant boat). When winding in a tight space with every pump I can see the bow move, that's good enough for me.

 

In answer to later questions about training, I don't have a RYA cert but I do have a Boatmaster 3 which I took as a test on Judith Mary with no formal training.

 

George ex nb Alton retired

[magpie patrick]

I find pumping works at low speeds with both Alton (big Woolwich) and Judith Mary (71'6" restaurant boat). When winding in a tight space with every pump I can see the bow move, that's good enough for me.

 

With all due respect, the fact the bow moves when you "pump" the tiller is not evidence that "pumping" is more effective, it is simply evidence that your alternative technique is ineffective. You are getting a pulse through moving the tiller rapidly, which then stops as you reach the end of the stroke. Turning a boat efficiently is ENTIRELY about getting rotational momentum, not about movement with each action. You clearly haven't got rotational momentum.

 

To paraphrase my original post, "pumping" will only work if the effect of the propeller stream has already been maximised. In neutral it will certainly work, at low revs it might have some effect, on a butty (or any other boat without power) it is invaluable, but you can't beat getting the rudder to the right angle and putting on just enough revs. If "pumping" has a momentary effect, try holding the tiller at the angle where it has most effect and leaving it there.

[David Schweizer]

With all due respect, the fact the bow moves when you "pump" the tiller is not evidence that "pumping" is more effective, it is simply evidence that your alternative technique is ineffective. You are getting a pulse through moving the tiller rapidly, which then stops as you reach the end of the stroke. Turning a boat efficiently is ENTIRELY about getting rotational momentum, not about movement with each action. You clearly haven't got rotational momentum.

 

To paraphrase my original post, "pumping" will only work if the effect of the propeller stream has already been maximised. In neutral it will certainly work, at low revs it might have some effect, on a butty (or any other boat without power) it is invaluable, but you can't beat getting the rudder to the right angle and putting on just enough revs. If "pumping" has a momentary effect, try holding the tiller at the angle where it has most effect and leaving it there.

Magpie you are running the risk of turning into ChrisW. i.e. theory over experience. If George says it works then it does work, that is also my experience. It may have something to do with the design of the underwatwer hull and the size and depth of the rudder, and may not be very effective on moden boxes with shallow draufht an tiny rudders, but on a real boat it works.

[matty40s]

it works for me. Having a slow responding Gardner with lots of torque once it's kicked in, means that I have had to find the best ways of turning,evasive action, reversing and indeed winding. I find pumping helps me most of the time, and if someone said to me I had failed a test because I use it for my boat, I would present them a certificate for jobsworthness.