Beta 43 Just Died on me

[Motters79]

A frosty good morning to you people of The Cut! 

 

This morning my Beta 43 started up as normal and ran sweetly for 10 minutes at about 1000 rpm but then the revs started to rapidly drop as if a large electrical load had been switched on (it hadn't). It kept slowing and then shuddered to a halt over the course of half a minute maybe. Now won't start although it does try to fire. Could this be the dreaded water in my fuel tank that has finally reached the pick up pipe? I've not investigated yet but any suggestions would be welcomed. It does seem like a fuel starvation issue to me. I'm about to don my thermals to go and have a first look under the engine cover. 

 

Why does this have to happen when it's been minus 5 over night??? 🥶😫

[nicknorman]

Most likely to be a fuel issue. Could it be brought on by water in the fuel tank /pipes/ filters freezing?

Edited January 18 by nicknorman

[cuthound]

When did you last buy diesel?

 

Winter diesel has a anti waxing agent added to prevent the formation of wax at low temperatures. If It starts and runs OK when the temperature rises, it will be because you have summer diesel in your tank which has waxed because of the low temperature and caused a blockage. 

[Tracy D'arth]

Warm the filter bowl and injection pump with hot wet cloths.

[Alan de Enfield]

Remove the fuel filter and have look at it - if it coated with 'cottage cheese' or thick creamy slimy stuff then your fuel has frozen over night. 

 

If it has then maybe you have 'summer grade' diesel in the tank.

Clean the filter as best as you can and get some heat into the engine room / engine hole to warm up the pipework. then try to start the engine again in a few hours.

 

 

[PCSB]

Run out of diesel maybe??

[philjw]

Has anybody used the additives which are around to help with the waxing issue?

Example: https://www.stp.com/uk/product/diesel-winter-treatment-with-anti-gel/

 

[Motters79]

27 minutes ago, cuthound said:

When did you last buy diesel?

 

Winter diesel has a anti waxing agent added to prevent the formation of wax at low temperatures. If It starts and runs OK when the temperature rises, it will be because you have summer diesel in your tank which has waxed because of the low temperature and caused a blockage. 

In September I put about 40litres in and then topped up again in November but it only took about 10 litres then. I don't buy fuel that often as I don't burn a huge amount so will usually be a mix of fuels bought winter and summer. Would September diesel from a fuel boat likely be the summer stuff? Previous purchase before that was around March, so would've been winter stuff probably . I've never had this (or any other engine problems) in 6 years CCing. I normally try and keep tank full as possible in the winter though I have dropped the ball a bit there this year. I've probably got 3/4 of a tank at the moment. 

[Alan de Enfield]

6 minutes ago, Motters79 said:

In September I put about 40litres in and then topped up again in November but it only took about 10 litres then. I don't buy fuel that often as I don't burn a huge amount so will usually be a mix of fuels bought winter and summer. Would September diesel from a fuel boat likely be the summer stuff? Previous purchase before that was around March, so would've been winter stuff probably . I've never had this (or any other engine problems) in 6 years CCing. I normally try and keep tank full as possible in the winter though I have dropped the ball a bit there this year. I've probably got 3/4 of a tank at the moment. 

 

From October onwards, fuel companies add a series of additives to help the diesel flow better during the winter months and prevent gelling. If these additives were perhaps missed out or fuel was delivered from an earlier batch, that fuel might not be winter specification diesel.

 

Winter Blend vs Summer Blend Diesel (DERV) | Crown Oil

 

Summer blend (March to October) is only usable down to -4 degrees C

 

Last night (Lincolnshire) it was -6 at midnight and getting lower

Edited January 18 by Alan de Enfield

[MtB]

57 minutes ago, Motters79 said:

Why does this have to happen when it's been minus 5 over night??? 🥶😫

 

Because you're probably running on summer fuel.

 

At really low temps wax precipitates and stops the engine, just as you describe. Winter stocks of fuel have a waxing inhibitor added by the refinery. 

 

 

[Machpoint005]

All the above is likely correct, and by far the best diagnosis. However being a Beta 43, do check first that the multipin connector hasn't worked loose.

 

i tend to work on the basis that it's worth doing the simple things first. You don't want to be cleaning out a fuel system to cure a silly electrical fault. 

 

 

[Mike Hurley]

1 hour ago, philjw said:

Has anybody used the additives which are around to help with the waxing issue?

Example: https://www.stp.com/uk/product/diesel-winter-treatment-with-anti-gel/

 

I used to manage a fleet of 1200 vehicles in the Balkans where -25c winters are the norm. Every winter we would get fuel tested and usually got about -20/22c before waxing, except when we added a anti waxing agent, then it waxed at -14c. some paraffin in the tank helped when the worst weather hit.

[Motters79]

53 minutes ago, Machpoint005 said:

All the above is likely correct, and by far the best diagnosis. However being a Beta 43, do check first that the multipin connector hasn't worked loose.

 

i tend to work on the basis that it's worth doing the simple things first. You don't want to be cleaning out a fuel system to cure a silly electrical fault. 

 

 

Sounds like good logic! Where will I find this Multipin connector?

[nicknorman]

58 minutes ago, Machpoint005 said:

All the above is likely correct, and by far the best diagnosis. However being a Beta 43, do check first that the multipin connector hasn't worked loose.

 

i tend to work on the basis that it's worth doing the simple things first. You don't want to be cleaning out a fuel system to cure a silly electrical fault. 

 

 

It is certainly true that the multi pin connectors are a weak point, however I am struggling to see how that could cause the problems mentioned. Normally they just cause electrical or indication problems. A diesel engine doesn’t need electrical power to run, so the only electrical thing that could cause it to stop once it is running, is if the stop solenoid became powered due to a short circuit. And then you’d think it would just cut out.

[Motters79]

1 hour ago, nicknorman said:

It is certainly true that the multi pin connectors are a weak point, however I am struggling to see how that could cause the problems mentioned. Normally they just cause electrical or indication problems. A diesel engine doesn’t need electrical power to run, so the only electrical thing that could cause it to stop once it is running, is if the stop solenoid became powered due to a short circuit. And then you’d think it would just cut out

Also very logical, maybe even more so 🤷

 

Am about to go and warm things up with a blowtorch... Wish me luck 🤞🏻

[MtB]

This thread reminds me of another reason a proper engine room is a fantastic thing to have....

 

Were it me suffering this problem I'd just open the doors and warm it up in there, from the rest of the boat.

 

Not that it would have got that cold in the first place....

[David Mack]

A proper Grand Union engine room has no doors through to the accommodation in front or behind, and is constructed entirely of uninsulated steel, and with ill-fitting doors that let enormous drafts through. It is perishing cold in there in this weather and dripping with condensation, until the engine has been running for a few hours.

DAMHIK!

[MtB]

Proper Grand Union engine rooms are obviously rubbish then!

 

 

 

[Motters79]

I tried warming up a few things including fuel filter with a blowtorch but that's easier said than done without risking accidently burning/melting various wires and pipes in such and awkward confined space. No success there anyway.

 

I also pumped some fuel out from the bottom of my tank to check for water. To my surprise the fuel even from right at the very bottom was surprisingly clean and no trace of water despite the boat being 23 years old. The fuel in my sample jar hasn't sat that long but there's no sign so far, just crystal clear red diesel. 

 

My next plan is to wait till the weekend when the weather has warmed up well above 0 and try again. If still no fire up then I'll change the fuel filter to eliminate that and beyond that I'm guessing maybe the fuel lift pump could have failed? 

 

I'll keep you posted. Thanks for all suggestions so far 👍🏻

 

 

[Machpoint005]

5 hours ago, Motters79 said:

Sounds like good logic! Where will I find this Multipin connector?

 

It joins two fat black multistrand cables together, and is probably sitting over the back of the engine or near the gearbox. Nick is quite right, an electrical fault doesn't stop a diesel unless the stop solenoid has shorted out, but it is still worth checking.

 

 

[nicknorman]

1 hour ago, Motters79 said:

I tried warming up a few things including fuel filter with a blowtorch but that's easier said than done without risking accidently burning/melting various wires and pipes in such and awkward confined space. No success there anyway.

 

I also pumped some fuel out from the bottom of my tank to check for water. To my surprise the fuel even from right at the very bottom was surprisingly clean and no trace of water despite the boat being 23 years old. The fuel in my sample jar hasn't sat that long but there's no sign so far, just crystal clear red diesel. 

 

My next plan is to wait till the weekend when the weather has warmed up well above 0 and try again. If still no fire up then I'll change the fuel filter to eliminate that and beyond that I'm guessing maybe the fuel lift pump could have failed? 

 

I'll keep you posted. Thanks for all suggestions so far 👍🏻

 

 

 

One problem for us on the forum is that "Beta 43" has been around for yonks with various different details. Ours has the filter on the engine with the black plunger knob on top. Pumping this knob circulates diesel through the injector pump and back to the tank. On our boat with a tank below the engine, you can hear it running back down into the tank which means it is also coming out of the tank! you can also "feel" whether it is actually pumping fuel, or just air.  Anyway, you should be able to disconnect something in the return and pump the pump to circulate the fuel and see fuel coming out.

 

If you don't have that pump, you should be able to manually operate the lift pump to similar effect.

 

On our boat with the tank under the engine, we also have an electric lift pump however this is not necessary to keep the thing running PROVIDING there is no air leak that allow air to get sucked in in preference to pulling fuel up.

So for you, a blockage is one possibility but an air leak is another. With air being so much less dense than diesel, a tiny leak can let a lot of air in, but virtually no diesel out.

 

On our engine there is also a small knurled nut on the side of the injector pump that is the automatic air bleed. Beta advises to keep this open all the time, so it might be a good idea to check it is. Beta also advised that if there was a problem, it might be best to close it! So in other words, whether it is currently open or closed, try putting it the other way!

Edited January 18 by nicknorman

[Midnight]

If your engine as an older model, have you tried using the little finger pump after slackening the bleed vent on top of the engine fuel filter`to see if fuel is getting that far? If you have to pump for ages it means there was no fuel in the line. I once forgot to open the fuel tap after a service and after the engine slowly died it took ages before fuel appeared from the bleed vent. I painted the pump trigger (?) white because I have difficulty in locating it after every service.

Edited January 18 by Midnight

[Machpoint005]

Yes, I've had that problem too.

 

 

[jonesthenuke]

1 hour ago, nicknorman said:

On our engine there is also a small knurled nut on the side of the injector pump that is the automatic air bleed. Beta advises to keep this open all the time, so it might be a good idea to check it is. Beta also advised that if there was a problem, it might be best to close it! So in other words, whether it is currently open or closed, try putting it the other way!

 Just for information, I believe these Beta engines to be a Kubota engines, and a friend has one in a narrowboat, his manual says keep the valve open. However the Kubota manual for this range of engines says to keep the bleed valve shut ( I have one in a digger). I can see arguments for either state, but it may depend on the installation, particularly the fuel supply (Gravity, electric lift pump, mechanical lift pump).  The digger has an electric lift pump.

[MrsM]

9 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

From October onwards, fuel companies add a series of additives to help the diesel flow better during the winter months and prevent gelling. If these additives were perhaps missed out or fuel was delivered from an earlier batch, that fuel might not be winter specification diesel.

 

Winter Blend vs Summer Blend Diesel (DERV) | Crown Oil

 

Summer blend (March to October) is only usable down to -4 degrees C

 

Last night (Lincolnshire) it was -6 at midnight and getting lower

It was -6c in hubby's car when he set off from Lincoln this morning.