Beta 43 Just Died on me

[Motters79]

38 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

One thing to bear in mind is that the pump is operated by a cam on the engine. If the cam is at the peak, the plunger is fully home and operating the lever doesn't really do anything. You can usually feel if there is some pumping action or whether you are just operating against a spring. Anyway, one thing to try is to rotate the engine 1/2 turn or so, or just a momentary poke with the starter to get it off the peak of the cam. It's a possibility rather than a probability.

 

Where is your fuel tank? Many boats have it in the counter ie above the engine, so you would think that pretty much just gravity would get the fuel to flow. Is there something you could loosen nearer the tank outlet just to see if fuel comes out under gravity? Some detail and photos about the fuel's route from the tank to the engine would help.

You mentioned having turned the fuel tap off to change the filter, if you loosen the filter and turn the tap on, does fuel leak out? Presumably it should, otherwise why turn off the fuel tap to change it? Blocked fuel tank outlet is certainly a possibility.

My fuel tank is the very stern of the boat that's been enclosed by a steel bulkhead. The pipes come up out of the deck at the very back of the tank into 90 degree connectors one of which includes fuel cock they then go back through the deck and down the front of the tank then across the basplate where the join flexible pipes at the edge of the swim. Hard to know if the fuel would autosyphon if I open the tap with the filter undone. I'd have thought it would naturally flow out of the bleed nut if it was inclined to do so. The fuel cock may actually serve to stop the fuel flowing back into the tank ,

Actually the end of the pipe where it connects to the fuel pump is well below the bottom of the tank so it shouldn't drain back and should want to syphon. I guess the pump itself would be an obstacle to it syphoning up out of the bleed nut by itself hence the need to manually operate it.

[Tracy D'arth]

The mechanical pump is puny on these engines. Hence the change to the filter with a pump on.

[Motters79]

Ok so I disconnected the feed pipe to the fuel pump and turned on the fuel tap and diesel did come out allbeit fairly slowly, like a drip per second kind or rate. 

 

My main suspect is now definitely the pump itself. May aswell order one and change it and hopefully I'll be back in business 🤞🏻 The 2 10mm bolts that secure it are a bugger to get a spanner on mind you. I can only just about manage a quarter turn on them before having to reposition spanner due to all the surrounding bits and pieces. Can't get a socket on them at all as they are too close to the body of the pump itself. 

[Tracy D'arth]

2 minutes ago, Motters79 said:

Ok so I disconnected the feed pipe to the fuel pump and turned on the fuel tap and diesel did come out allbeit fairly slowly, like a drip per second kind or rate. 

 

My main suspect is now definitely the pump itself. May aswell order one and change it and hopefully I'll be back in business 🤞🏻 The 2 10mm bolts that secure it are a bugger to get a spanner on mind you. I can only just about manage a quarter turn on them before having to reposition spanner due to all the surrounding bits and pieces. Can't get a socket on them at all as they are too close to the body of the pump itself. 

 

If you disconnect the pipe OUT from the pump, will it then pump fuel?  You will not get it to syphon unless you suck on the feed pipe.

[Motters79]

7 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

If you disconnect the pipe OUT from the pump, will it then pump fuel?  You will not get it to syphon unless you suck on the feed pipe.

Good point I should've tried that but I'm assuming not on the basis that nothing was coming out of the bleed nut which isn't far away even when cranking with the starter. 

[David Mack]

1 hour ago, Motters79 said:

Ok so I disconnected the feed pipe to the fuel pump and turned on the fuel tap and diesel did come out allbeit fairly slowly, like a drip per second kind or rate. 

If the fuel pump inlet is below the level of the fuel in the tank and you are only getting a drip per second from the fuel pump end of the pipe, then either the syphon is broken or the pipe itself is blocked (either somewhere along its length or at the inlet from the tank).

A working fuel pump might be able to reestablish the syphon, but it won't do anything if the pipe/inlet is blocked.

Have you tried blowing back through the pipe? You should be able to hear the bubbles rising in the tank.

[Motters79]

1 hour ago, David Mack said:

If the fuel pump inlet is below the level of the fuel in the tank and you are only getting a drip per second from the fuel pump end of the pipe, then either the syphon is broken or the pipe itself is blocked (either somewhere along its length or at the inlet from the tank).

A working fuel pump might be able to reestablish the syphon, but it won't do anything if the pipe/inlet is blocked.

Have you tried blowing back through the pipe? You should be able to hear the bubbles rising in the tank.

Yeah it is well below the bottom of the tank. If I were to blow back through it that would definitely break the syphon. I'm guessing that the pipe and fittings are 8mm? I'm wondering if I should try and rig up and alternative fuel supply to the pump and see if it will suck that up? Would establish whether pump is knackered and if not then I know the pipe from tank has a blockage. 

[nicknorman]

It is sounding to me like a fuel blockage at the tank outlet or the pipework. I would try to eliminate this possibility before spending money on a new pump which may well be unnecessary.

[Motters79]

42 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

It is sounding to me like a fuel blockage at the tank outlet or the pipework. I would try to eliminate this possibility before spending money on a new pump which may well be unnecessary.

I'm thinking the same. If it is a blockage establishing where it is is gonna be a pain in the arse!

[MtB]

1 hour ago, Motters79 said:

Yeah it is well below the bottom of the tank.

 

In that case I'd expect a continuous stream of fuel to flow from the open end, not a drip per second. I think you have an almost blocked pipe from the tank, even though one drip per second would probably be enough to keep the engine running.

 

 

[Bee]

I would love to hear the results of your efforts. Our Beta 43 did this the day before we came back from France so the first job when we get back to the boat is to fix it. I think its the pump at fault, can`t get into the innards of it and as you say its a little sod to get off, I`ve got a new pump and also an electric pump so something should work.

[dmr]

2 hours ago, Motters79 said:

Yeah it is well below the bottom of the tank. If I were to blow back through it that would definitely break the syphon. I'm guessing that the pipe and fittings are 8mm? I'm wondering if I should try and rig up and alternative fuel supply to the pump and see if it will suck that up? Would establish whether pump is knackered and if not then I know the pipe from tank has a blockage. 

It might be 8mm or it might be 5/16". The copper pipes are so close they should interchange but the threads on the unions are different. I suspect any bits supplied by Beta are 8mm but the sections supplied by the boat builder could be either. There is some odd regulation somewhere that requires 5/16 rather than 8mm but many people just don't know or just ignore it because its silly.

Somebody here will look at that undone union and tell you which one it is, I can't remember how to do this right now 😀

[Motters79]

So  today I had a bright idea and put some diesel in a small jar which I then submerged the pumps pick up port into whilst operating the lever and it sucked up nothing. So I am concluding from this that the pump is the point of failure. 

 

I'm now considering whether it might be better rather than replace the mechanical pump (it'll be a pig to get off and same fitting new one) to just fit an electric pump in its place? If I did that does anyone know what it's flow rate would need be or if it is indeed that crucial?

[Tony Brooks]

RCR fit, or used to fit the rectangular Facet electric pumps, Vetus fit the cylindrical ones. Plenty of options on Google. I don't know the delivery pressure on your mechanical pump, but we used to reckon on about 6 PSI.

 

 

[nicknorman]

8 minutes ago, Motters79 said:

So  today I had a bright idea and put some diesel in a small jar which I then submerged the pumps pick up port into whilst operating the lever and it sucked up nothing. So I am concluding from this that the pump is the point of failure. 

 

I'm now considering whether it might be better rather than replace the mechanical pump (it'll be a pig to get off and same fitting new one) to just fit an electric pump in its place? If I did that does anyone know what it's flow rate would need be or if it is indeed that crucial?

Beta says max fuel flow for the 43 is 10 litres/hr. This is "not a lot" so I would imagine that any electric diesel pump would do.

[MtB]

1 hour ago, nicknorman said:

Beta says max fuel flow for the 43 is 10 litres/hr. This is "not a lot" so I would imagine that any electric diesel pump would do.

 

A bit of arithmetic would work out the actual max flow rate of diesel to produce 43HP at say 25% efficiency.

 

In fact I too suspect it would be 'not a lot' or therabouts.

 

 

 

 

[Tracy D'arth]

The smallest pumps will do the job. Be more concerned about how you are going to connect it into the fuel line and comply with BSS inspections.  I would leave the old pump connected as it is and put the electric one in the flexy line before it.

[Motters79]

23 hours ago, nicknorman said:

It is sounding to me like a fuel blockage at the tank outlet or the pipework. I would try to eliminate this possibility before spending money on a new pump which may well be unnecessary.

I managed to push some clear rubber tube over the end of the pipe from the tank and can easily draw fuel up the pipe by sucking on it so there's no blockage in the pipes. Im in no doubt now that it's the pump that's failed.

[Motters79]

14 hours ago, Tracy D'arth said:

The smallest pumps will do the job. Be more concerned about how you are going to connect it into the fuel line and comply with BSS inspections.  I would leave the old pump connected as it is and put the electric one in the flexy line before it.

That's an idea but could the old pump be or become an obstacle to flow? 

[Tony Brooks]

1 hour ago, Motters79 said:

That's an idea but could the old pump be or become an obstacle to flow? 

 

Not unless the valves are clogged with bug/muck. The electric pump will just push them open. You should keep an occasional eye on the engine oil level in case the diaphragm in the mechanical pump punctures and the diesel leaks into the sump. Remember, the mechanical pump will still be moving when the engine is    spinning.

[Motters79]

14 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Not unless the valves are clogged with bug/muck. The electric pump will just push them open. You should keep an occasional eye on the engine oil level in case the diaphragm in the mechanical pump punctures and the diesel leaks into the sump. Remember, the mechanical pump will still be moving when the engine is    spinning.

I think I'll just replace the mechanical pump. It's obvs knackered, dont want it disintegrating and causing wider damage to the engine. 

[Tony Brooks]

7 hours ago, Motters79 said:

I think I'll just replace the mechanical pump. It's obvs knackered, dont want it disintegrating and causing wider damage to the engine. 

 

It is extremely unlikely to cause damage to the engine if its pipes are removed and connected to the electric pump. If you put the electric pump in series with the mechanical one, the only damage that MIGHT (not will) occur is from oil dilution by fuel.

[Motters79]

Well it's just another thing to worry about. It's already 23 years old and has failed. If I disconnected it oil could leak out of it and if I leave it plumbed in fuel could leak into my engine oil, so I think I'll just put a new mechanical pump on and it should be good for another 23 years 🤞🏻I like to be optimistic 😂

[Tony Brooks]

1 minute ago, Motters79 said:

Well it's just another thing to worry about. It's already 23 years old and has failed. If I disconnected it oil could leak out of it and if I leave it plumbed in fuel could leak into my engine oil, so I think I'll just put a new mechanical pump on and it should be good for another 23 years 🤞🏻I like to be optimistic 😂

 

If oil does not leak out now, why should it if it is disconnected? Even if it did it is very unlikely to be a bad leak. As best practice is to check the oil and coolant before the first start each day, you should get plenty of warning of a developing problem.  I just don't want you to spend money because of a potential (not a certain) problem that might (not will) occur.

[Bee]

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/134903136622?

I think this is the one you need, check first though!