Anyone successfully sued a surveyor ?

[Peanut]

24 minutes ago, Bee said:

 PS Avoid lawyers at all costs, they will break your pocket and your heart. The boat can only break your pocket

This ^^^^^^^^^^

[Arthur Marshall]

One of the unexpected problems with boats is that they get built piecemeal, and often amended over the years. So nothing is ever quite where you expect it, or quite as accessible as it was originally. And because every single thing has to fit in a small space with everything else, it's usually hell to figure out. They're all unique.

One friend had to dismantle the entire kitchen to replace a failed shower pump. I still have to take the side off the sink unit to clean the gas jet on the fridge.

At least with your amount of fettling, you'll know where everything is.

[Mike Todd]

2 hours ago, debbbbs said:

His website is all about how qualified and experienced he is and that employing him offered us a guarantee that the boat was worth the money and that there would be no major issues. As a newbie we naturally assumed that when you pay someone to do a job, they do it.

 

The surveyor saw water beneath the shower and at the stern access points inside the boat. On opening the access hatch beneath the shower which we know he did he would have been hit by the pungent odour.If the surveyor had simply made us aware that he had found water throughout the boat beneath the floorboards but was unable to determine where the water was coming from, even as newbies we would have been concerned and requested a more in-depth inspection to determine the cause of the water. However he told us that the water was the result of a leak from the shower that had been fixed. We don't know if this is the result of something he was told or simply an assumption on his behalf. So it wasn't that he missed the problem totally, he either mis diagnosed it or accepted a lie from the marina without question.

 

Ahh, there we have the fatal flaw - his advice was that it was worth the price, not that it was free of any major fault.  Of course, we cannot say on the evidence so far evinced that this is not true. It would be even harder to prove to a court than that he had acted unprofessionalally. 

[debbbbs]

1 hour ago, Bee said:

 For others embarking on this journey always assume that any integral tank is on its way to total failure quite soon.

 As a newbie I didn't know that the integral tank could be allowed to deteriorate to such an extent that it would leak effluent throughout the boat. That's why we instructed a qualified, done it all before, loads of boaty knowledge expensive surveyor.

 

 

[Paul C]

1 minute ago, debbbbs said:

 As a newbie I didn't know that the integral tank could be allowed to deteriorate to such an extent that it would leak effluent throughout the boat. That's why we instructed a qualified, done it all before, loads of boaty knowledge expensive surveyor.

 

 

When you got the quote for the work, was "cassette" suggested?

[debbbbs]

1 minute ago, Paul C said:

When you got the quote for the work, was "cassette" suggested?

Yes.

We made the decision to remove the damaged tank, repair all the corroded metal and reinstate a new tank. It has been installed with flush points on all corners that allows it to be fully cleaned...no mucky corners and a brand new drop down thetford toilet.

On inspection of the corroded tank it was determined that a lack of insulation on the wall below the window in the bathroom had resulted in years of condensation dripping down the wall and corroding the tank.

With a new tank in place we have insulated the wall to ensure this cannot happen again.

[Arthur Marshall]

8 minutes ago, debbbbs said:

Yes.

We made the decision to remove the damaged tank, repair all the corroded metal and reinstate a new tank. It has been installed with flush points on all corners that allows it to be fully cleaned...no mucky corners and a brand new drop down thetford toilet.

On inspection of the corroded tank it was determined that a lack of insulation on the wall below the window in the bathroom had resulted in years of condensation dripping down the wall and corroding the tank.

With a new tank in place we have insulated the wall to ensure this cannot happen again.

Every bit of bare steel in the walls and roof of the boat should be seriously well insulated, but I'm sure you know that already! Condensation pours off any bare steel to a truly remarkable extent - I'd missed a strip about two feet long and six inches high at the pointy end behind the bed at floor level and wound up with about ten gallons of water under the floor and some very soggy floorboards. I never understood why the baseplate of the boat, which isn't insulated, doesn't generate condensation and someone on here explained it once, but it doesn't seem to. Walls and roof, yes. And if it's a steel tank, all the bits of that, too.

41 minutes ago, debbbbs said:

 As a newbie I didn't know that the integral tank could be allowed to deteriorate to such an extent that it would leak effluent throughout the boat. That's why we instructed a qualified, done it all before, loads of boaty knowledge expensive surveyor.

 

 

That's the thing, empty, there'd be no evidence it leaked, even if it did at the time.

I'm not sure being a newbie had much to do with it. I doubt anyone would think to have a prod at the holding tank, however experienced they were. Pretty sure it would never cross my mind as something to do.

[magnetman]

17 minutes ago, debbbbs said:

Yes.

We made the decision to remove the damaged tank, repair all the corroded metal and reinstate a new tank. It has been installed with flush points on all corners that allows it to be fully cleaned...no mucky corners and a brand new drop down thetford toilet.

On inspection of the corroded tank it was determined that a lack of insulation on the wall below the window in the bathroom had resulted in years of condensation dripping down the wall and corroding the tank.

With a new tank in place we have insulated the wall to ensure this cannot happen again.

I'm a little surprised to hear of a dump through lavatory being fitted. I thought this was a bit old fashioned. You will want to ensure the tank is very well ventilated otherwise the loo itself will work as a vent. I've not had one but was aboard a boat with one of these contraptions and there was definitely a bit of an air about it. 

 

 

[David Mack]

8 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Whilst on the subject - brokers are just as good with their 'wriggle, wriggle' terms and conditions.

 

"Don't believe what is written, we have no idea if it is true, and its not out fault if it is wrong. Its your responsibility to make sure its what you want"

 

Examples from various brokers :

 

Naburn Leisure

The Company normally acts as Broker for the Vendor who unless otherwise stated is not selling in the course of Business. Whilst every care has been taken in the preparation of these particulars, the correctness is not guaranteed and they are intended as a guide only and do not constitute a part of any contract. A prospective buyer is strongly advised to check these particulars and where appropriate at his/her own expense to employ a Qualified Marine Surveyor to carry out a survey and/or have an engine/sea trial conducted, which if conducted by us will not imply any liability on our part. The vessel is offered subject to prior sale, price change or withdrawl without notice. This specification it's content and all photographs are copyright of Naburn Leisure Ltd.

 

Boatshed

The particulars detailed herein are intended to give a fair description of the vessel but their accuracy cannot be guaranteed, these particulars are not a part of any contract or offer and are supplied on the understanding that all negotiations shall be through Boatshed Brokerages, who are acting as brokers for the vendor. The vendor is not selling in the course of a business unless otherwise stated. The prospective purchaser is strongly recommended to check the particulars and where appropriate, at his own expense, to employ qualified agents to carry out surveys, structural and/or mechanical & electrical.

 

ABNB

PLEASE NOTE: This is sales information and not a survey report; providing content details only. The specification in these pages is based on ABNB's visit to the boat and on information given by the owner. This is to help you decide whether to investigate the boat further, be it by surveyor or otherwise. The information here is given in good faith but no description, statement, promise of work to be done, or suggestion for future use, constitutes an offer. If the craft leaves the UK, any necessary VAT paid status may not be available.

 

Aquavista

Please note: this is not a survey report and all pre-owned boats are sold without warranty.

The information provided is based on a superficial inspection carried out by us and information provided by the vendor. No guarantee is given or implied regarding the specification, but descriptions are given in good faith as could be ascertained at the time of inspection. Aquavista takes no responsibility for the accuracy of this information and recommend the use of a marine surveyor to establish the condition of the vessel.

 

 

 

I think Whilton have probably the most 'honest' conditions of sale.

 

Whilton Marina

Neither we nor any third parties provide any warranty or guarantee as to the accuracy, timeliness, performance, completeness or suitability of the information and materials found or offered on this website for any particular purpose. You acknowledge that such information and materials may contain inaccuracies or errors and we expressly exclude liability for any such inaccuracies or errors to the fullest extent permitted by law.

 

 

 

All of those brokers examples deny any responsibility for the boat information they provide in their brochures and advertising material. And they advise you to have a qualified surveyor examine the boat. Little wonder then that newbie/inexperienced buyers think that a survey is going to give them a more definitive condition assessment than the broker advert!

If the surveyors Ts & Cs and in particular the survey limitations are only provided after the survey has been carried out, I would be tempted to think they could be regarded as invalid under consumer protection rules. But the surveyors would presumably counter that they are industry-standard terms, drawn up by the representative trade bodies, and so the courts would be unlikely to rule in favour of a consumer on the point.

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, David Mack said:

All of those brokers examples deny any responsibility for the boat information they provide in their brochures and advertising material. And they advise you to have a qualified surveyor examine the boat. Little wonder then that newbie/inexperienced buyers think that a survey is going to give them a more definitive condition assessment than the broker advert!

If the surveyors Ts & Cs and in particular the survey limitations are only provided after the survey has been carried out, I would be tempted to think they could be regarded as invalid under consumer protection rules. But the surveyors would presumably counter that they are industry-standard terms, drawn up by the representative trade bodies, and so the courts would be unlikely to rule in favour of a consumer on the point.

 

There is no easy answer.

 

As has been said, the 'newbie' is told they need to get a survey, when they do they get told it is 'worthless'.

 

The only positive from the OP point of view is that the surveyor identified work was needed, and allowed the OP to re negotiate the purchase price (probably more than recouping the surveyor cost).

[MtB]

29 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

There is no easy answer.

 

 

Yes there is.

 

Don't buy a boat, then all these horrid problems are avoided.

 

Easy. See? 

 

 

[Tacet]

7 hours ago, David Mack said:

All of those brokers examples deny any responsibility for the boat information they provide in their brochures and advertising material. And they advise you to have a qualified surveyor examine the boat. Little wonder then that newbie/inexperienced buyers think that a survey is going to give them a more definitive condition assessment than the broker advert!

If the surveyors Ts & Cs and in particular the survey limitations are only provided after the survey has been carried out, I would be tempted to think they could be regarded as invalid under consumer protection rules. But the surveyors would presumably counter that they are industry-standard terms, drawn up by the representative trade bodies, and so the courts would be unlikely to rule in favour of a consumer on the point.

The thing to bear in mind throughout, is that the current owner is seeking to sell its boat to you.

[Phoenix_V]

If you do go after ABC a main plank of your argument will be that they deliberately hid the problem. Make sure you have some evidence of that.

[Mad Harold]

You have have had a bad experience, I have too with buying a boat.I have said before that buying a used boat is rather like taking up with a new woman, in that you don't know what you've got untill you live with her.

My experience with my particular boat was not as expensive as yours, but it hurt just the same. 

Rather than pursue this, it may be better for your sanity to regretfully write it off to bitter experience.

[debbbbs]

On 10/12/2023 at 19:59, magnetman said:

I've not had one but was aboard a boat with one of these contraptions and there was definitely a bit of an air about it. 

 

 

If there was an odour it's because there was a problem.

The new tank we have fitted does not omit any odours. It shouldn't be classed as outdated, when installed and maintained properly the tank will last as long as the boat. Also with the addition of extra access points on every corner we are able to totally flush the whole tank to keep every corner clean.

We have spoken with other boaters who have cassette toilets and regret their decision. I suppose its what your used to and what you like.

[Jerra]

12 minutes ago, debbbbs said:

If there was an odour it's because there was a problem.

The new tank we have fitted does not omit any odours. It shouldn't be classed as outdated, when installed and maintained properly the tank will last as long as the boat. Also with the addition of extra access points on every corner we are able to totally flush the whole tank to keep every corner clean.

We have spoken with other boaters who have cassette toilets and regret their decision. I suppose its what your used to and what you like.

I have used portable/cassette toilets in caravans for decades, however, I wouldn't have anything other than a pump out on the boat.

[Tony Brooks]

I trust the workers also fitted TWO large bore breathers, one at each end of the tank, say a minimum of 1" ID and 2" better. This allows air to move across the effluent and helps minimise the anaerobic decomposition. that is the smelly one, you really want aerobic decomposition.

[Arthur Marshall]

9 minutes ago, debbbbs said:

If there was an odour it's because there was a problem.

The new tank we have fitted does not omit any odours. It shouldn't be classed as outdated, when installed and maintained properly the tank will last as long as the boat. Also with the addition of extra access points on every corner we are able to totally flush the whole tank to keep every corner clean.

We have spoken with other boaters who have cassette toilets and regret their decision. I suppose its what your used to and what you like.

A lot depends on usage and your travel pattern for emptying! There's a history of toilet wars on here - we all tend to like what we've got and are used to. I'm usually the only person on my boat and a cassette suits me fine, while when I lived on, a pump out would have been impractical as there was nowhere in sensible range to empty it. As long as you've got what you want and are happy with it, ignore any disparaging comments. Which goes for just about everything else too.

Because of the nature of the forum and of boats, someone on here will have had every possible variety of stuff that can go wrong. So it looks like a category of disasters, but it isn't - most of it never happens.

[MtB]

2 hours ago, debbbbs said:

The new tank we have fitted does not omit any odours. It shouldn't be classed as outdated, when installed and maintained properly the tank will last as long as the boat.

 

"A brave assertion, minister", as Sir Humphrey Appleby might have suggested.

 

Rotted-through toilet tanks are commonplace. They rust from the inside from condensation I reckon, and remarkably quickly. 

 

What have you done to the inside of your new tank to prevent condensation corrosion? Just curious.

 

 

 

 

[IanD]

3 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

"A brave assertion, minister", as Sir Humphrey Appleby might have suggested.

 

Rotted-through toilet tanks are commonplace. They rust from the inside from condensation I reckon, and remarkably quickly. 

 

What have you done to the inside of your new tank to prevent condensation corrosion? Just curious.

Maybe it's a stainless steel tank?

[MtB]

1 minute ago, IanD said:

Maybe it's a stainless steel tank?

 

That'll be it! Well spotted!

 

 

 

 

[IanD]

3 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

That'll be it! Well spotted!

 

Are you saying that SS tanks rust remarkably quickly from the inside because of condensation? Doesn't make sense...

[MtB]

No

[blackrose]

On 10/12/2023 at 18:02, DShK said:

 

I take the view that a surveyor is basically just paying to have a mate who (potentially) knows more abouts boats than you do, for the day. 

 

I think one is hopefully paying for a slightly more detailed service than that. Most people's mates who know more about boats than them don't generally have the knowledge and experience to perform a proper hull thickness/condition survey for example.

 

5 hours ago, debbbbs said:

We have spoken with other boaters who have cassette toilets and regret their decision. I suppose its what your used to and what you like.

 

Indeed, the choice of toilet is purely personal and I'm sure there are some pump out owners who also regret their decision. I've had both types on different boats and personally I'd never go back to a pump out. 

Edited December 12, 2023 by blackrose

[DShK]

I don't mean in ability. I mean in it's worth. It's advice not a guarantee. 

Edited December 12, 2023 by DShK