45 x10 Widebeam, total electric retrofit is it possible?

[Thingi]

Hello all, I'm a complete noob so please be gentle. 

 

I want to purchase a 45 x 10 widebeam and convert it fully to electric Propulsion, Heating & Cooking as a live-aboard. I plan on having around 3600kW of Solar and approximately 48 kW of battery (commercial offering) or preferably 60 kW (DIY Setup).

 

From my calculations that would generate roughly 3 kWh per day in the depths of winter compared to 16.8kWh at the height of summer. I don't have a plans for a permanent mooring, instead ideally I'd like to be able to charge up at a marina when required in winter then get back on my way. The question is how much power draw can be achieved on most moorings with a hookup, do high power draw moorings even exist?

 

Ideally I'd like to use two Nissan Leaf batteries (new, not 2nd hand) like this chaps setup on YouTube:- 

 

 Mainly due to the commercial offerings seeming to be rather steep for what is essentially just a few panels, a battery pack, an invertor and electric motor especially when considering prices of essentially the same kit sold for other uses other than canalboats.

 

However I am also interested in commercial 'off the shelf solutions, I have about 30K for the conversion. 

 

So the question is am I completely mad and this is just a pipedream, or is it possible? Does anyone on the forum own a completely electric boat and can recommend a good supplier who will do the retrofit?

 

 

 

Edited October 17, 2023 by Thingi

[mrsmelly]

Make sure you leave space for your diesel gennie 

[Bobbybass]

Yup....they'll definitely need that.

[Jen-in-Wellies]

calling @peterboat

[Alan de Enfield]

2 hours ago, Thingi said:

From my calculations that would generate roughly 3 kWh per day in the depths of winter

 

I think you are being totally unrealistic - fine on a nice dry cloudless winters day, but when you get a week of rain & snow, low cloud and low temperatures how will you power / heat / light your boat.

 

Somehow you will need to replace every Ah used and Solar will not do it.

 

Use £10k of you budget to fit a proper boat diesel cacooned diesel generator and then see what you can do with your remaining £15k (maybe just fit one battery pack which you can keep charged with the Genny) and keep £5 for rectification work when it just doesn't work as expected.

[roland elsdon]

Friends brother ripped out diesel. Solar lithium electric £30000 plus. Managed 13 miles from marina an overnight and 6 miles back towards marina. Leicester summit. Dead zilch. 

spent a peaceful night ( no lights no fridge no tv no pumps zilch)

At 3pm  from the solar he had enough to get going got within a mile of marina and dead again. Bowhauled in an plugged in.

 

He is now thinking of a gennie or a nice diesel.

Cant prove the above but thats what i was told as we chugged along ..

[blackrose]

3 hours ago, Thingi said:

I want to purchase a 45 x 10 widebeam and convert it fully to electric Propulsion, Heating & Cooking as a live-aboard

 

3 hours ago, Thingi said:

 

Ok I'll ask... What's the purpose of the fully electric propulsion, heating and cooking?

 

Electric propulsion maybe yes. Cooking - what's wrong with gas? Heating as a liveaboard - forget about it.

 

The reason I ask the purpose of your choices is just the practicalities. Do you want to be fully electric as some sort of sustainability quest (which it isn't really) or just to make yourself feel better about living on a boat which isn't really a sustainable lifestyle to begin with?

 

People here with a lot of experience will try to be gentle but sometimes it's difficult when new members with unrealistic ideas present their plans.

Edited October 17, 2023 by blackrose

[Thingi]

18 minutes ago, roland elsdon said:

Friends brother ripped out diesel. Solar lithium electric £30000 plus. Managed 13 miles from marina an overnight and 6 miles back towards marina. Leicester summit. Dead zilch. 

spent a peaceful night ( no lights no fridge no tv no pumps zilch)

At 3pm  from the solar he had enough to get going got within a mile of marina and dead again. Bowhauled in an plugged in.

 

He is now thinking of a gennie or a nice diesel.

Cant prove the above but thats what i was told as we chugged along ..

 

Thanks Roland, this is exactly the kind of info I was after, it may be '2nd hand info' but it does tie in with my e-bike experience.

 

I got burned because e-bike tech/battery capacity simply wasn't there at the time, I jumped on e-bike train too early, a spare battery lessened the 'range anxiety' but when I look  at the ranges available now... blimey! Looks to be the same thing when it comes to boats too. Over priced and under powered.  

 

It's a great community here on this site, (I've been 'lurking' for a few months now) thanks for everyone's replies so far!

 

 

5 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

 

Ok I'll ask... What's the purpose of the fully electric propulsion, heating and cooking?

 

Electric ropulsion maybe yes. Cooking - what's wrong with gas? Heating as a liveaboard - forget about it.

 

The reason I ask the purpose of your choices is just the practicalities. Do you want to be fully electric as some sort of sustainability quest (which it isn't really) or just to make yourself feel better about living on a boat which isn't really a sustainable lifestyle to begin with?

 

People here with a lot of experience will try to be gentle but sometimes it's difficult when new members with unrealistic ideas present their ideas.

 

 

 

 

Hi Blackrose, I'm not an 'eco-warrior', what I was trying to do was minimise on-going costs by investing as much up-front as possible. I've got some heart problems serious enough for me to try and minimise lugging stuff down tow-paths, I'm still young but me ticker is an OAP! I really don't want to stuck in a marina, I want to move about and enjoy the rest of the time I have left in the most peaceful way possible.

 

[Jen-in-Wellies]

53 minutes ago, Thingi said:

I'm not an 'eco-warrior', what I was trying to do was minimise on-going costs by investing as much up-front as possible. I've got some heart problems serious enough for me to try and minimise lugging stuff down tow-paths, I'm still young but me ticker is an OAP! I really don't want to stuck in a marina, I want to move about and enjoy the rest of the time I have left in the most peaceful way possible.

Sorry to hear that. Relying on solar alone for propulsion, cooking, etc isn't going to work year round. There just isn't the roof area, even on a wide beam. There isn't the grid charging infrastructure on the network to be able to charge when the sun has disappeared to the other hemisphere, or is hiding behind the usual UK gloom. To minimise lugging heavy stuff, diesel is the way to go. For propulsion in either a full on diesel engined boat, or in a hybrid. Bags of coal/wood are heavy and diesel solves that too for heating, though is more expensive. Gas cylinders are heavy and diesel cooking is a thing. Gas cooking is so convenient though, so I'd ask for help loading full and emptying empty cylinders in the gas locker if it were me. I find one 13kg cylinder, weighing around 25kg overall, will do 3 to 4 months of cooking. Diesel itself can be obtained from marinas and fuel boats and is pumped in to your tank, so no heavy lifting required. Marinas and fuel boats usually have gas cylinders and smokeless solid fuel too, so again, no lugging stuff long distances along tow paths.

[Thingi]

46 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Sorry to hear that. Relying on solar alone for propulsion, cooking, etc isn't going to work year round. There just isn't the roof area, even on a wide beam. There isn't the grid charging infrastructure on the network to be able to charge when the sun has disappeared to the other hemisphere, or is hiding behind the usual UK gloom. To minimise lugging heavy stuff, diesel is the way to go. For propulsion in either a full on diesel engined boat, or in a hybrid. Bags of coal/wood are heavy and diesel solves that too for heating, though is more expensive. Gas cylinders are heavy and diesel cooking is a thing. Gas cooking is so convenient though, so I'd ask for help loading full and emptying empty cylinders in the gas locker if it were me. I find one 13kg cylinder, weighing around 25kg overall, will do 3 to 4 months of cooking. Diesel itself can be obtained from marinas and fuel boats and is pumped in to your tank, so no heavy lifting required. Marinas and fuel boats usually have gas cylinders and smokeless solid fuel too, so again, no lugging stuff long distances along tow paths.

 

Thank you so much for the advice. It all makes complete sense. Honestly there's no need to be sorry, you know what they say 'the brightest candles' and all that, it's darn true after working in more countries than I care to remember for over 20 years. Now it's time for very early retirement and to just kick back and relax  

 

I will probably still be on the high-end of power usage even without heating, cooking and propulsion, it'll be mainly for computer gear so I might go with a Bluetti AC300 + a few B300's type solution, they're pricy but tick all my boxes.

[nicknorman]

Power generation aside, I would avoid using any lithium battery that is not LiFePO4 chemistry. I think the Leaf has NMC chemistry which is much less stable and much more prone to going on fire than LiFePO4. I think you would run into trouble with insurance and BSS, maybe not right now, but in the fairly near future.

[Momac]

5 hours ago, Thingi said:

The question is how much power draw can be achieved on most moorings with a hookup

Almost all shore power is 16Amps max

 

[roland elsdon]

Just come back from visiting friend, brother now looking at lpg gennies.

told him he would need serious kw output and clean sine wave and would end up lugging gas bottles etc.

we had an ex650 on gas for years but that wont run a big charger.

told him blind expensive alley but some peops need to do.

drives a f pace jag when asked  why not electric claimed range anxiety🔨🔨🔨🔨🔨

[sueb]

Please remember just moving around the canals is hard work. Locks need effort to work as does mooring up especially if the wind is blowing the wrong way. Good luck. 

[Lady M]

Yes I have been thinking that you may find a widebeam boat is harder to manage than a narrow one.

[LadyG]

I'm well in to my seventies and have been narrowboating for more than four years.

No problem with gas, I pay for delivery, it is dropped in to gas locker. No problem with coal or logs. I have them delivered, usually to the well deck. Water is on tap, and I manage my cassette, which is a pain, but not impossible.

I have redundancy for heating, diesel, solid fuel, even gas heating.

Webasto with radiators is warm when on and cold when off, noisy when on, silent when off  ....

I would not contemplate trying to use solar as main source of energy, it generally wont work on a narrowboat. Buying second hand it's probably best to accept the original set up for a while, there will be some logic to it DAMHIK.

It can be difficult to handle these barges singlehanded, they are difficult to steer in gusty conditions

I had to ask for help today as I could not get alongside a swing bridge landing, and of course there were two shiny boats moored up on the other side!

I have to say this is a rare occurance, but it happens. I could not contemplate buying  a large modern wide beam, even with a fair amount of experience now gained. 

When i started cruising I did have some idea that I would pop in to a marina when I needed batteries topped up, but this has not worked. You need to continuously monitor your batteries, so really you need you need to be self contained, as you can be iced in / breakdown/ medical emergency/ stoppages/ other.

Edited October 17, 2023 by LadyG

[PeterF]

8 hours ago, Thingi said:

From my calculations that would generate roughly 3 kWh per day in the depths of winter compared to 16.8kWh at the height of summer. I don't have a plans for a permanent mooring, instead ideally I'd like to be able to charge up at a marina when required in winter then get back on my way. The question is how much power draw can be achieved on most moorings with a hookup, do high power draw moorings even exist?

 

8 minutes ago, LadyG said:

When i started cruising I did have some idea that I would pop in to a narina when I needed batteries topped up, but this has not worked.

 

You need to be aware that whilst many marinas do offer visitor mooring for a single night or a few nights 

a. they charge handsomely for this, often in the range of £20-£30 per night, one I know is £40 per night, so it is an expensive way to buy electricity and 

b. in the winter these are often taken by people who moor for the whole winter in the marina

Edited October 17, 2023 by PeterF

[MtB]

8 hours ago, Thingi said:

I want to purchase a 45 x 10 widebeam and convert it fully to electric Propulsion, Heating & Cooking as a live-aboard. I plan on having around 3600kW of Solar and approximately 48 kW of battery (commercial offering) or preferably 60 kW (DIY Setup).

 

 

I can't help but worry about your grasp of the principles involved given your sloppy use of units. I'll be astonished if you can fit even 1% of your planned 3,600kW of solar panels onto a widebeam roof. Probably closer to 0.1% of your intended 3.6 megaWatts. And batteries are specified in AmpHours or WattHours, not kW. 

 

Another thing is you may not realise is solar panels rarely produce their rated output except in high summer. In winter it is often 5% or even 1%, in my personal experience. 

[Thingi]

I'm so glad everyone has been so very, very helpful in the thread! I think it's safe to say that my original idea is a non-starter. The technology simply isn't quite there yet and short stop over charges do sound awfully expensive for just electricity purchases.

 

Sticking with the original setup as is does indeed sound like a very good idea to start with. That along with a Bluetti + PV System for just my electronics sounds very much like the way to go, they are LiFePO4 based. 

 

I grew up in Southampton just across the river from Ocean Village where my mate had a 26' yacht, we'd often pop across to the Isle of Wight and I've even done the trip a few times in my old sea kayak but I must confess I've never attempted to manoeuvre a widebeam or a narrowboat.

 

I admit I did love mooring up on the Hamble effortlessly while watching the hooray-henrys fail spectacularly despite their deep pockets. It sounds like I may have a bit may a bit of a rude awakening, while I was assuming that a short widebeam would handle differently than a long narrowboat, I didn't expect it to be that much harder, I really am a complete newbie with a dream (that's close to reality) at the moment.

 

 

 

[Ronaldo47]

A decade or so ago, one of the hire companies did offer some pure electric narrowboats. The trouble from my point of view was that you were pretty well compelled to follow a fixed itinery from boat yard to boatyard  where overnight charging facilities had been arranged, and I did not hire boats to spend nights in boatyards ( it might have been alternate nights) .  Unless/until ultra-rapid chargers become  available, popping in for a quick battery top-up will only be a pipe-dream.  

 

 

Edited October 17, 2023 by Ronaldo47
typos

[Thingi]

24 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

I can't help but worry about your grasp of the principles involved given your sloppy use of units. I'll be astonished if you can fit even 1% of your planned 3,600kW of solar panels onto a widebeam roof. Probably closer to 0.1% of your intended 3.6 megaWatts. And batteries are specified in AmpHours or WattHours, not kW. 

 

Another thing is you may not realise is solar panels rarely produce their rated output except in high summer. In winter it is often 5% or even 1%, in my personal experience. 

 

Pedantry is ugly trait and so is condescension, you knew exactly what I meant, but thanks for your 'input'.

Edited October 17, 2023 by Thingi

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Thingi said:

 

Pedantry is ugly trait and so is condescension, you knew exactly what I meant, but thanks for your 'input'.

 

He has form, just ignore him.

[MtB]

7 hours ago, Thingi said:

 

Pedantry is ugly trait and so is condescension, you knew exactly what I meant, but thanks for your 'input'.

 

Now who's being condescending?

 

Either you don't understand or you can't be arsed to get the units right. Neither scenario bodes well for someone contemplating spending £25k converting a boat to electric power. 

 

Your accusation of pedantry is also misplaced in my opinion. Attention to detail is essential in all matters technical.

 

 

[IanD]

43 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Now who's being condescending?

 

Either you don't understand or you can't be arsed to get the units right. Neither scenario bodes well for someone contemplating spending £25k converting a boat to electric power. 

 

Your accusation of pedantry is also misplaced in my opinion. Attention to detail is essential in all matters technical.

 

Perhaps you should use MW (or MegaWatts) not megaWatts then... 😉

[roland elsdon]

Look for a conventional tried tested boat.

You will have a great time.

Just dont put a fatboat on a narrow canal!