45 x10 Widebeam, total electric retrofit is it possible?

[Jen-in-Wellies]

Another consideration is the widebeam side of things. great though they are, you are confined either to the north, or the south of the system, with the narrow canal bit in the middle off limits and no way of crossing between the two except on the back of a lorry. If you want to cruise and see lots of the network a wide beam limits you.

[dmr]

Widebeams can not travel extensively due to a huge number of narrow canals, which part of the system do you plan to be based on? This might have some influence on the choice of boat and the effectiveness of solar.

[Thingi]

All good advice, I plan on being on the Southern part of the system, which thankfully is where the boat that I'm after is already based. Initially I was after a widebeam (although a short one) due to the effectiveness of solar but that indeed does come at the cost of being limited in mobility terms, but I'm still OK with that even if a total conversion is no longer on the cards.

 

It is a real shame the the network narrows just south of Leicester but then opens up again not that much further North. No disrespect to Birmingham but I don't have any plan to travel on that part of the network but I would like to do the northern part, not sure on the cost of cranes/trucks and probably a police escort etc, however something is telling me rather expensive!

 

canalplan.org.uk appears to be an excellent resource although the UI is somewhat dated. The Google maps overlay is also great but it's slow and doesn't seem to indicate widths. Due to my working background I'm actually very, very tempted to design my own HTML5 resource/app that combines route planning and the Google overlay data in a modern user friendly way.   

 

It does seem slight crazy to me that that the network is split the way it is for widebeams. There may even be a business case to join the two together maybe even an M6 type toll to use it could work but I can imagine the capital costs would be rather large to say the least though.

 

 

[Machpoint005]

The OP asked whether an electric retrofit was possible.

 

Yes, it is.

 

What he did not ask (in so many words) but can be inferred was

(1) Would it cost a fortune (yes), and

(2) Would it be a practical propostion out there in real world with everyone looking at it (probably no).

 

 

[Thingi]

18 minutes ago, Machpoint005 said:

The OP asked whether an electric retrofit was possible.

 

Yes, it is.

 

What he did not ask (in so many words) but can be inferred was

(1) Would it cost a fortune (yes), and

(2) Would it be a practical propostion out there in real world with everyone looking at it (probably no).

 

 

Very succinctly put! 

 

Part of the thinking behind going all-electric was the eco-zealotry of the current political establishment. I do have a fear that canal life is under threat, possibly sooner than people expect. I can foresee a future where nobody is allowed to burn anything and that will price a lot of people out of the lifestyle whilst there being no real alternatives at the moment. 
 

[Slim]

13 hours ago, MtB said:

 

I can't help but worry about your grasp of the principles involved given your sloppy use of units. I'll be astonished if you can fit even 1% of your planned 3,600kW of solar panels onto a widebeam roof. Probably closer to 0.1% of your intended 3.6 megaWatts. And batteries are specified in AmpHours or WattHours, not kW. 

 

Another thing is you may not realise is solar panels rarely produce their rated output except in high summer. In winter it is often 5% or even 1%, in my personal experience. 

Actually, in the EV world batteries are specified in kW.  

My observation to the OP would be more around the area of his health. Are you thinking of solo boating? If so you will find it fairly physical. Consider all the up and downing involved in negotiating a lock (and you will be transiting wide ones).   

Edited October 18, 2023 by Slim

[Thingi]

53 minutes ago, Slim said:

Actually, in the EV world batteries are specified in kW.  

My observation to the OP would be more around the area of his health. Are you thinking of solo boating? If so you will find it fairly physical. Consider all the up and downing involved in negotiating a lock (and you will be transiting wide ones).   

 

All points valid, I will be solo boating, I can still do pretty physical stuff but only in bursts. Thankfully enough for lock navigation and other duties, without telling anyone nobody would know I even have a health issue. I've re-learned what my limits are, do too much, too often for too long and I suffer for it, the hardest thing was retraining my brain because my body didn't agree with it! 

[Tracy D'arth]

2 hours ago, Thingi said:

All good advice, I plan on being on the Southern part of the system, which thankfully is where the boat that I'm after is already based. Initially I was after a widebeam (although a short one) due to the effectiveness of solar but that indeed does come at the cost of being limited in mobility terms, but I'm still OK with that even if a total conversion is no longer on the cards.

 

It is a real shame the the network narrows just south of Leicester but then opens up again not that much further North. No disrespect to Birmingham but I don't have any plan to travel on that part of the network but I would like to do the northern part, not sure on the cost of cranes/trucks and probably a police escort etc, however something is telling me rather expensive!

 

canalplan.org.uk appears to be an excellent resource although the UI is somewhat dated. The Google maps overlay is also great but it's slow and doesn't seem to indicate widths. Due to my working background I'm actually very, very tempted to design my own HTML5 resource/app that combines route planning and the Google overlay data in a modern user friendly way.   

 

It does seem slight crazy to me that that the network is split the way it is for widebeams. There may even be a business case to join the two together maybe even an M6 type toll to use it could work but I can imagine the capital costs would be rather large to say the least though.

 

 

No!   Don't infest the system further with wide boats, the canal system as a whole is totally unsuitable for wide beam boats.

The narrows is our best defence against total paralysation of the system.

[Jen-in-Wellies]

14 hours ago, Thingi said:

It sounds like I may have a bit may a bit of a rude awakening, while I was assuming that a short widebeam would handle differently than a long narrowboat, I didn't expect it to be that much harder, I really am a complete newbie with a dream (that's close to reality) at the moment.

Have you tried handling a narrow, or wide beam canal boat yet? A weeks hire, especially now the weather has turned will show up any issues for you with the strength/stamina required. You can reduce a lot of the strength used handling a boat with technique, but you only develop the technique by going boating. There isn't a lot of difference in handling between a steel narrow and wide beam isn't that great. Similar techniques work for both.

[Thingi]

6 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Have you tried handling a narrow, or wide beam canal boat yet? A weeks hire, especially now the weather has turned will show up any issues for you with the strength/stamina required. You can reduce a lot of the strength used handling a boat with technique, but you only develop the technique by going boating. There isn't a lot of difference in handling between a steel narrow and wide beam isn't that great. Similar techniques work for both.

 

That is indeed on the cards and a very sensible idea because the answer is a no at the moment. Ideally as well as a hire of a boat I'd like some expert tuition to avoid learning any 'bad habits'. As I write this I'm munching away on yet another lovely genuine Pakistani curry from my neighbour, I need to see how I cope without amazing free food for over a week too 😀

 

Any recommendations would be greatly appreciated, I'm based in Nottingham at the moment. 

[Jen-in-Wellies]

14 minutes ago, Thingi said:

 

That is indeed on the cards and a very sensible idea because the answer is a no at the moment. Ideally as well as a hire of a boat I'd like some expert tuition to avoid learning any 'bad habits'. As I write this I'm munching away on yet another lovely genuine Pakistani curry from my neighbour, I need to see how I cope without amazing free food for over a week too 😀

 

Any recommendations would be greatly appreciated, I'm based in Nottingham at the moment. 

The Trent and Mersey canal would be a good place to start. It has narrow and wide canal sections, plus a river stretch part way along, as well as a river at the end, heading towards Nottingham and up the Soar towards Leicester. Narrow locks are a lot easier to work than wide beam ones and may well convert you to the idea of a narrowboat. CaRT have searchable listings to narrow down some possibilities to ring round.

[mrsmelly]

25 minutes ago, Thingi said:

 

That is indeed on the cards and a very sensible idea because the answer is a no at the moment. Ideally as well as a hire of a boat I'd like some expert tuition to avoid learning any 'bad habits'. As I write this I'm munching away on yet another lovely genuine Pakistani curry from my neighbour, I need to see how I cope without amazing free food for over a week too 😀

 

Any recommendations would be greatly appreciated, I'm based in Nottingham at the moment. 

Nottingham is an ideal place to live on a proper sized boat. Narrowboats are a ridiculous dimension that you should only buy if you intend doing the stupid narrow system we have been lumbered with. From Nottingham you have the river Trent which is brilliant for decent sized boats. You can access the Yorkshire serious waterways such as the A and C and adjoining routes all the way to Leeds/Wakefield/Goole/Selby/York amongst others. Widebeams are immeasurably better boats to live on but you simply MUST buy a poxy narrowbeam if you need countrywide access to the system. Ask anyone who has extensive time of living on both types which is best and the reply will be a resounding call for the wide boat. I ended up back on a narrowboat as I wanted to go back to a certain area that gave me no choice other than to sell my lovely widebeam and buy another narrowboat. @blackrose

Edited October 18, 2023 by mrsmelly

[Tracy D'arth]

6 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

Nottingham is an ideal place to live on a proper sized boat. Narrowboats are a ridiculous dimension that you should only buy if you intend doing the stupid narrow system we have been lumbered with. From Nottingham you have the river Trent which is brilliant for decent sized boats. You can access the Yorkshire serious waterways such as the A and C and adjoining routes all the way to Leeds/Wakefield/Goole/Selby/York amongst others. Widebeams are immeasurably better boats to live on but you simply MUST buy a poxy narrowbeam if you need countrywide access to the system. Ask anyone who has extensive time of living on both types which is best and the reply will be a resounding call for the wide boat. I ended up back on a narrowboat as I wanted to go back to a certain area that gave me no choice other than to sell my lovely widebeam and buy another narrowboat. @blackrose

Its  funny how the posts in favour of cluttering the canals with wide beams are written by someone with no boat at all.

[Slim]

42 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Have you tried handling a narrow, or wide beam canal boat yet? A weeks hire, especially now the weather has turned will show up any issues for you with the strength/stamina required. You can reduce a lot of the strength used handling a boat with technique, but you only develop the technique by going boating. There isn't a lot of difference in handling between a steel narrow and wide beam isn't that great. Similar techniques work for both.

It's not just strength, it can be stamina. A flight such as Hatton solo is totally different to doing it with a crew of even one. 

[mrsmelly]

1 minute ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Its  funny how the posts in favour of cluttering the canals with wide beams are written by someone with no boat at all.

Lol. You didnt read it correctly. The system I advocated using widebeams on was purpose built for them. My old Dad and his family in the 1930s owned barges in Goole and delivered by them to Nottingham wharfes. The A and C dimensions are without checking something like 200 feet long locks. There is no clutter there at all. Wide boats should not go in the wrong places such as for instance the North Oxford but on the large commercial waterways a widebeam makes vastly more sense than a narrowboat. 

[Thingi]

14 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

Nottingham is an ideal place to live on a proper sized boat. Narrowboats are a ridiculous dimension that you should only buy if you intend doing the stupid narrow system we have been lumbered with. From Nottingham you have the river Trent which is brilliant for decent sized boats. You can access the Yorkshire serious waterways such as the A and C and adjoining routes all the way to Leeds/Wakefield/Goole/Selby/York amongst others. Widebeams are immeasurably better boats to live on but you simply MUST buy a poxy narrowbeam if you need countrywide access to the system. Ask anyone who has extensive time of living on both types which is best and the reply will be a resounding call for the wide boat. I ended up back on a narrowboat as I wanted to go back to a certain area that gave me no choice other than to sell my lovely widebeam and buy another narrowboat. @blackrose

 

I 100% agree, I'm often on Notingham's canal towpath on my e-bike, it's a lovely ride to Sawley Marina and going the other way is also a great ride too. The boat I'm after is on the Southern part of the network though which is closer to family. However if I could get the boat lifted out and put on the Northern part of the network for under 5k that's exactly what I'd do since it's close to all my friends, so Nottingham/Sawley would kind of be my 'home area'. 

Edited October 18, 2023 by Thingi

[mrsmelly]

1 minute ago, Thingi said:

 

I 100% agree, I'm often on Notingham's canal towpath on my e-bike, it's a lovely ride to Sawley Marina and going the other way is also a great ride too. The boat I'm after is on the Southern part of the network though which is closer to family. However if I could get the boat lifted out and put on the Northern part of the network for under 5k that's exactly what I'd do since it's close to all my friends, so Nottingham/Sawley would kind of be my 'home area'. 

I skippered the Nottingham Princess and Prince for a few years and still have the licence. Loads of room up there for a comfy boat. You will find on this forum many people slang widebeam boats off, most of these people have never owned one, indeed many have never been on one. The problem is a lot of new boaters of late have bought widebeams and put them in totaly unsuitable areas which pisses some people off quite rightly. However having lived extensively on both types in the correct locations then a wide boat on such as the Trent and north makes complete sense. Its a lovely trip from Nottingham to York for instance.

[Tracy D'arth]

18 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

I skippered the Nottingham Princess and Prince for a few years and still have the licence. Loads of room up there for a comfy boat. You will find on this forum many people slang widebeam boats off, most of these people have never owned one, indeed many have never been on one. The problem is a lot of new boaters of late have bought widebeams and put them in totaly unsuitable areas which pisses some people off quite rightly. However having lived extensively on both types in the correct locations then a wide boat on such as the Trent and north makes complete sense. Its a lovely trip from Nottingham to York for instance.

Good, you wide boys can all clear off to between Nottingham and York where the water is wide enough for your inflated egos and boats. Leaving the sane slow waterways for what they were intended, narrowboats.

[Alan de Enfield]

23 minutes ago, Thingi said:

I 100% agree, I'm often on Notingham's canal towpath on my e-bike, it's a lovely ride to Sawley Marina and going the other way is also a great ride too. The boat I'm after is on the Southern part of the network though which is closer to family. However if I could get the boat lifted out and put on the Northern part of the network for under 5k that's exactly what I'd do since it's close to all my friends, so Nottingham/Sawley would kind of be my 'home area'. 

 

The problem is with a 10 foot 'widebeam' it is the worst of both worlds and has none of the benefits of either.

 

It is too wide to use the narrow canals and far to narrow to benefit from the additional beam that a 'widebeam' waterway allows.

 

I have had both, and my curent 14 foot widebeam felt very comfortable and 'in the right place' on the Northern waterways.

 

My other boat is a PROPER widebeam being 23 feet beam, but that is based on 'lumpy waters'.

[Thingi]

25 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

I skippered the Nottingham Princess and Prince for a few years and still have the licence. Loads of room up there for a comfy boat. You will find on this forum many people slang widebeam boats off, most of these people have never owned one, indeed many have never been on one. The problem is a lot of new boaters of late have bought widebeams and put them in totaly unsuitable areas which pisses some people off quite rightly. However having lived extensively on both types in the correct locations then a wide boat on such as the Trent and north makes complete sense. Its a lovely trip from Nottingham to York for instance.

 

The first anti-widebeam person I spoke to was off the forums, it was a Marina Manager (who I shall not name). Their argument was that I wouldn't be able to access the whole network (not bothered) and the Marina gets less money for Widebeam moorings in the grand scheme of things (again not really applicable to me). As you say it's a totally valid point that putting a huge boat 70' x 12' where it rightly has no place to be is rude and inconsiderate.... but at 45' x 10' I'd call that a pretty dinky widebeam anyway but big enough for me personally. As others have said where I am there's plenty of room.

Edited October 18, 2023 by Thingi

[mrsmelly]

2 minutes ago, Thingi said:

 

The first anti-widebeam person I spoke to was off the forums, it was a Marina Manager (who I shall not name). Their argument was that I wouldn't be able to access the whole network (not bothered) and the Marina gets less money for Widebeam moorings in the grand scheme of things (again not really applicable to me). As you say it's a totally valid point that putting a huge boat 70' x 12' where it rightly has no place to be is rude and inconsiderate.... but at 45' x 10' I'd call that a pretty dinky widebeam anyway but big enough for me personally. As others have said where I am there's plenty of room.

In reality its narrowboats that are weird, we are the only country realy that has them out of the millions of boats worldwide.  45 by ten is tiny against what is on such as the Ouse ( Yorkshire ) and the Aire and Calder but the extra 3 feet makes it much more comfy to live on. The narrow system is lovely and suited to narrowboats, problem is as you are finding out some people have an unreasonable hatred of widebeams even on waterways that were built for their dimensions, but hey ho.

[Jen-in-Wellies]

9 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

In reality its narrowboats that are weird, we are the only country realy that has them out of the millions of boats worldwide.  45 by ten is tiny against what is on such as the Ouse ( Yorkshire ) and the Aire and Calder but the extra 3 feet makes it much more comfy to live on. The narrow system is lovely and suited to narrowboats, problem is as you are finding out some people have an unreasonable hatred of widebeams even on waterways that were built for their dimensions, but hey ho.

The question I've wondered is just how many bottles of port had James Brindley drunk when he decided that seven feet was the ideal width for his new canals across the Midlands?

[Thingi]

13 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

The question I've wondered is just how many bottles of port had James Brindley drunk when he decided that seven feet was the ideal width for his new canals across the Midlands?

 

Working in computers/IT James Brindley reminds me of when Microsoft's Bill Gates said "640kb ought to be enough for anybody" 🤣 

Edited October 18, 2023 by Thingi

[Paul C]

36 minutes ago, Thingi said:

 

Working in computers/IT James Brindley reminds me of when Microsoft's Bill Gates said "640kb ought to be enough for anybody" 🤣 

 

It was never standardised at 7' in the early days, but eventually a "de-facto" standard of 7' emerged. The anomaly is that every other country went on to develop their waterways network with wider and wider gauge, look at eg France and there's wide waterways there. England is somewhat unique in never fully converting to a wider standard, and the rest is history. Its kinda quaint. Some people aren't bothered by the narrowness in the interior of a boat, others are. And some people would find a 70'x14' claustrophobic. If you've never been or stayed on a boat, its definitely worth trying before you buy.

[ditchcrawler]

17 hours ago, Thingi said:

 

Sticking with the original setup as is does indeed sound like a very good idea to start with. That along with a Bluetti + PV System for just my electronics sounds very much like the way to go, they are LiFePO4 based. 

 

 

 

 

 

And how are you going to recharge it, at the end of the day int not a power station producing power, its a battery and inverter. Why not size you house batteries for what you want to do and have a decent inverter wired in for you 230 Volt supply