second home council tax surcharge

[Phoenix_V]

It is proposed to allow councils to increase the tax on second homes by up to 100% and there is a consultation about which second homes should be exempt, probaly won't affect most of us but some may wish to make observations in particular see 5.8 exemption proposed for boats and caravan pitches;

Occupied caravan pitches and boat moorings

5.8 There is currently a mandatory 50% council tax discount for dwellings that consist of a pitch occupied by a caravan, or a mooring occupied by a boat where they are not a person’s sole or main residence. The government wants to ensure that caravans and boats that are currently eligible for this discount continue to receive the discount. As a result, the government proposes that these caravans and boats should be an exception to the council tax premium on second homes.

Question 11 – Do you agree that pitches occupied by caravans and moorings occupied by boats should be an exception to the second homes premium?

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/proposals-to-exempt-categories-of-dwellings-from-the-council-tax-premiums/consultation-on-proposals-to-exempt-categories-of-dwellings-from-the-council-tax-premiums-in-england?fbclid=IwAR1_v47BbM-SeAMATJD2Nrr9RNm1faqXsPFpEN2hZvqEzm7zX-0IxGigosI#fnref:6

 

[Alan de Enfield]

Presumably it is only caravans and moorings that are on residential 'moorings' that are charged council tax ?

 

If it is not someones 'sole or main residence' why would they want to pay for a residential mooring when all they need is a 'leisure' mooring and to pay no Council Tax ?

 

Am I missing something, or just not understanding it ?

[Mike Todd]

I thought the the charging of Council Tax on moorings, especially marinas, is resolved, albeit complicated - the Valuation Office has issued guidance, has it not? (OK, so not the same as setting the level of CT) However, there are cases where the moorer is charged and cases where it is the marina. I had thought that only a minority of moorers pay CT directly, or am I mistaken? It matters in relation to CT benefit - AIUI, this can only be claimed if paid directly, not through a grouping scheme such as when the marina pays it.

Edited July 31, 2023 by Mike Todd

[Phoenix_V]

7 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Presumably it is only caravans and moorings that are on residential 'moorings' that are charged council tax ?

 

 

This is what it says, that is all I know;

"There is currently a mandatory 50% council tax discount for dwellings that consist of a pitch occupied by a caravan, or a mooring occupied by a boat where they are not a person’s sole or main residence."

[Tacet]

7 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Presumably it is only caravans and moorings that are on residential 'moorings' that are charged council tax ?

 

If it is not someones 'sole or main residence' why would they want to pay for a residential mooring when all they need is a 'leisure' mooring and to pay no Council Tax ?

 

Am I missing something, or just not understanding it ?

The first sentence makes little sense (neither caravans nor moorings are to be found on moorings)  so it may well be that you are not understanding.

 

If one owns a residential mooring (or caravan) that is liable to Council tax - in the absence of another party with the liability (e.g. an occupier) you have to pay the tax, whether or not it's your sole or main residence (e.g. it could be vacant or used intermittently).

 

If you are seeking a mooring for leisure boat you may well eschew a residential mooring as its could well cost you more than its leisure cousin as the Council tax liability will typically be more than the non-domestic rates of its equivalent.   Technically, one may also need planning permission to change the use, which if granted would typically be disadvantageous for the owner.

 

 

[magnetman]

8 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Presumably it is only caravans and moorings that are on residential 'moorings' that are charged council tax ?

 

If it is not someones 'sole or main residence' why would they want to pay for a residential mooring when all they need is a 'leisure' mooring and to pay no Council Tax ?

 

Am I missing something, or just not understanding it ?

 

In a lot of cases a residential mooring will be provided with a much higher level of services than a leisure mooring. For example my residential mooring has dedicated shitsnake to each berth, electric, telephone line, domestic waste disposal and an individual postal address. 

 

If one were in a habit of spending time at the mooring and not moving the boat these things can be useful. 

 

 

Edited July 31, 2023 by magnetman

[ditchcrawler]

12 minutes ago, magnetman said:

 

In a lot of cases a residential mooring will be provided with a much higher level of services than a leisure mooring. For example my residential mooring has dedicated shitsnake to each berth, electric, telephone line, domestic waste disposal and an individual postal address. 

 

If one were in a habit of spending time at the mooring and not moving the boat these things can be useful. 

 

 

Unlike most of the marinas on the system where the only plus is a mail address, most pontoons these days have water and electricity regardless, few have a phone connection.

[Sea Dog]

15 hours ago, Phoenix_V said:

"There is currently a mandatory 50% council tax discount for dwellings that consist of a pitch occupied by a caravan, or a mooring occupied by a boat where they are not a person’s sole or main residence."

I suspect the bold above makes the difference with boats and tin tents used for leisure not being classed as "dwellings" hence not subject to CT at either full or 50% rates.

[Momac]

6 minutes ago, Sea Dog said:

I suspect the bold above makes the difference with boats and tin tents used for leisure not being classed as "dwellings" hence not subject to CT at either full or 50% rates.

I believe that to be correct.

 

Some years ago a marina neighbour of ours was living aboard and travelling to work locally for a few months. He did have a house but the boat was a more convenient base for his work. The marina owner noticed this and suggested he should go home, which he did.

 

I would say a marina that allows people to live aboard long term may be held liable for being in breach of their planning consent. Of course  people may do as they wish as long as they are not reported to the authorities or otherwise challenged . I doubt any local authority can , in most cases , spare the resources to go around marians regularly checking for illegal residents.  

 

[john.k]

They can spare the resources here to go around checking if people are sleeping in vans and mobile homes parked on the roadside ....fines are quite substantial ,too............there s a funny thing ...a scrote can steal a car , bash a pensioner,or burgle a house  and get off with probation......if the scrote sleeps in a van and is pinged by the council ,he either pays the large fine ,or goes on SPER ......the State Penalties Enforcement Register.........no pay ,and it gradually ramps up into jail time ......with no parole or probation.

[MtB]

7 minutes ago, MartynG said:

I believe that to be correct.

 

Some years ago a marina neighbour of ours was living aboard and travelling to work locally for a few months. He did have a house but the boat was a more convenient base for his work. The marina owner noticed this and suggested he should go home, which he did.

 

I would say a marina that allows people to live aboard long term may be held liable for being in breach of their planning consent. Of course  people may do as they wish as long as they are not reported to the authorities or otherwise challenged . I doubt any local authority can , in most cases , spare the resources to go around marians regularly checking for illegal residents.  

 

 

 

This always loops back to the difficulty in defining "where you live". This chap probably still "lived" officially in his house as that is where all his stuff is, where his GP is, where his bank statements are sent, is the address on his driving licence and on his employer's records as his 'address'. 

 

Yet at the same time the marina owner was sufficiently worried that he had "moved" into his boat in the marina as to tell he to shove off back "home". 

 

 

[BEngo]

 

11 minutes ago, MartynG said:

doubt any local authority can , in most cases , spare the resources to go around marians regularly checking for illegal residents.  

 

True, and they most certainly do not want to make someone homeless  as then  that problem becomes the council's too.

 

N

[GUMPY]

48 minutes ago, Sea Dog said:

I suspect the bold above makes the difference with boats and tin tents used for leisure not being classed as "dwellings" hence not subject to CT at either full or 50% rates.

There is at least one member on here who has to pay CT on his leisure mooring. He doesn't live on the boat merely stores it on the mooring when not in use. It's all down to council interpretation 🤔

[Bargebuilder]

There is a coastal marina I know very well where the district council sent letters to all boat owners who they had discovered were living on their boats, telling them that this was not permitted and they must move off within a certain notice period. Some of these people had actually been voluntarily paying council tax for moral reasons or to legitimise their residence and the council used this voluntary act to prove they were liveaboards! The irony was, that the council was depriving themselves of council tax and there were people who lived aboard who received no eviction letter because they did not pay council tax and the council were not aware of them.

 

Some councils are so determined to prevent marinas from turning into residential floating villages that they will refuse council tax to do so.

7 minutes ago, GUMPY said:

There is at least one member on here who has to pay CT on his leisure mooring. He doesn't live on the boat merely stores it on the mooring when not in use. It's all down to council interpretation 🤔

It's more down to the history of the mooring. If a council agrees to classify a particular mooring as residential, then even after the mooring is vacated, it is still a residential mooring. A previous poster stated that, if a residential mooring is occupied, then the owner of the boat has to pay council tax, even if they never even go aboard their boat! If however the mooring is unoccupied, council tax still had to be paid on it, but by the moorings owner, the land owner or the tenant if it's rented but not occupied.

 

I understand that once planning permission is granted to make anything residential and attract council tax, it is very difficult to subsequently get it declassified. So, check that a prospective new mooring doesn't attract a council tax demand before you agree to take it over, unless of course, you are a liveaboard.

 

[GUMPY]

2 hours ago, Bargebuilder said:

2 hours ago, GUMPY said:

 

It's more down to the history of the mooring. If a council agrees to classify a particular mooring as residential, then even after the mooring is vacated, it is still a residential mooring.

AFAIK it has never been a residential mooring as the marina concerned does not permit full time live aboard.

[nbfiresprite]

14 hours ago, GUMPY said:

There is at least one member on here who has to pay CT on his leisure mooring. He doesn't live on the boat merely stores it on the mooring when not in use. It's all down to council interpretation 🤔

More than, many boaters moored at Foxes are charged second home tax on their moorings since Fenland Council contracted out the collection of council tax to the Anglia Revenues Partnershire in 2016. My home is in Dorset, so only on the boat one or maybe two nights per week when I need to be in Cambridge.

 

Main problem in dealing with these worksly layabouts is that you have to wait two or even three months before you get a reply if one at all, Yet you are expected to reply within three days. The Anglia Revenues Partnershire claim that a mooring does not need to be residential for second home tax, just what they deem to be sole use, even when it is clearly stated in the mooring agreement that the mooring is not sole use or residential. Just that you have not changed moorings aleast twice a year. Marinas don't move moorers unless they have to. Having to move a large number of boats takes time and effort by staff who have other things to do.  

[Peanut]

I believe it to be straightforward, it is how you use the mooring, however it is described. If it is your sole residence then it attracts Council Tax, even if you move around the marina, leave for a time and come back. Both you and the marina may have plausible deniability if you have another address to use for your correspondence, doctor and banking.

If your marina is in a populous area, with greater visibility, then you may receive more attention than if you are out in the sticks. The attitude of the local council and the Councillor for the ward, who may take a personal interest, may play a part.

Two boats in a marina I know of, do pay Council Tax on Lesure Morings, one I believe for historic reasons the other voluntary. Another boater has gone on the local Electoral Register, and has not yet been charged  Council Tax.

Allen de Enfield, in a previous post,  gave a link to the regulations, which is what matters. Both the mooring and the boat attract tax, though you will likely be on the lowest band. Back tax might also be payable if they catch you.

That is in marinas, it would be different for continuous cruisers or cmer's who have no fixed abode.

 

[Higgs]

7 hours ago, nbfiresprite said:

Marinas don't move moorers unless they have to. Having to move a large number of boats takes time and effort by staff who have other things to do.  

 

In a marina such as Mercia, about half the marina's capacity is used for residential boats; around 300. A residential moorer on each pontoon will coordinate the twice-yearly movement of residential boats. There's usually some discussion between those moorers, in advance. The staff, in my experience, played only a small part; keeping track of progress - a phone call to the coordinator. The leisure moorers were worked around and not disturbed.

 

 

Edited August 2, 2023 by Higgs

[Jess--]

1 hour ago, Peanut said:

it would be different for continuous cruisers or cmer's who have no fixed abode.

Surely that should be no fixed address?

No fixed abode would be where you could be on any boat / car / house / shop doorway etc and this will change from day to day

No fixed address would be where you will be on a boat called xxxx (registration yyyy) or in a motorhome (registration zzzz) etc but the location of the boat etc may change from day to day (i.e. what you will be in is identified but where it will be is not)

[Bargebuilder]

8 hours ago, nbfiresprite said:

More than, many boaters moored at Foxes are charged second home tax on their moorings since Fenland Council contracted out the collection of council tax to the Anglia Revenues Partnershire in 2016. My home is in Dorset, so only on the boat one or maybe two nights per week when I need to be in Cambridge.

 

Main problem in dealing with these worksly layabouts is that you have to wait two or even three months before you get a reply if one at all, Yet you are expected to reply within three days. The Anglia Revenues Partnershire claim that a mooring does not need to be residential for second home tax, just what they deem to be sole use, even when it is clearly stated in the mooring agreement that the mooring is not sole use or residential. Just that you have not changed moorings aleast twice a year. Marinas don't move moorers unless they have to. Having to move a large number of boats takes time and effort by staff who have other things to do.  

When you say many boaters are charged second home tax, would you describe their and your boat as a second home? 

 

Any boat with a cabin, loo and a stove could be lived in, and there are hundreds of thousands of them in coastal and inland marinas, the vast majority of which don't swap berths every few months, but they are clearly not second homes and no attempt is made to collect council tax from their owners. People turn up on some and maybe most weekends, plus the occasional week for a holiday, often but not always take the boat out, but always return to a home where they pay council tax, have a doctor, are registered with banks, insurance companies, kids go to school etc.

 

I can understand why councils might want to charge council tax to people who do live on their boats: they might argue that they enjoy at least most of the services which the tax pays for. 

 

I know of many examples where people live full time on their boats but use family members addresses to 'prove' that they don't. The council must struggle to separate the genuine leisure boaters from the true liveaboards.

 

If you are being charged council tax and your boat is strictly for leisure use, don't pay the tax, let them prove their case in court and set a precedent in law for all councils to follow.

[Higgs]

In a previous discussion, it appeared to be the pitch that qualified for residential status and not the boat. If the place moored up against was registered as a  residential place then, boat there or not, it was deemed residential.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 2, 2023 by Higgs

[Alan de Enfield]

 

Source : Government "Council Tax Manual"

The Valuation Office Agency's (VOA) technical manual for assessing domestic property for Council Tax.

 

The policy that the legislation is intended to achieve can be summarised as follows. Although this specifically refers to boats and moorings the same principles apply to caravans and their pitches.

a) If a boat which is someone’s sole or main residence is moored “permanently” at a mooring, then the mooring is domestic property, and both the mooring and the boat are subject to Council Tax.

b) If a boat which is someone’s sole or main residence stops at a mooring and moves away for a sufficiently long period (see 6.2), and it seems that when next in use that mooring will be used by that same boat or another boat which is someone’s sole or main residence, then the mooring is domestic but the mooring only is subject to Council Tax.

c) If a boat which is someone’s sole or main residence is moored at a mooring and moves away, and it seems that when next in use the mooring will be used by a non-sole or main residence boat, then the mooring is non-domestic and subject to non-domestic rates.

d) If there is a mooring with no way of telling what sort of craft will be moored at it, then it is non-domestic and subject to non-domestic rates.

Whether the value of the boat or caravan can be included with the pitch is a matter of fact and degree. As a general rule, where a dwelling boat or caravan occupies a mooring or pitch for a substantial period of time - such duration would usually be for 12 months or more - it should be included in the band value, even if it moves away for brief periods of say 2 to 4 weeks, provided it then returns to its original mooring or pitch. The question to be asked is whether the occupation can be characterised as that of a ‘settler’ or a ‘wayfarer’. If the latter, then only the mooring or pitch should be valued.

 

The following circumstances help to identify the council tax implications for the boat and its mooring where a boat is the sole or main residence of an individual.

Example 1

Purpose built living accommodation based on a flat bottomed barge. The structure is moored to the bank by mooring lines and provided with affixed water, electricity and sewage connections. It may or may not have its own propulsion or engine.

At intervals commonly but not exclusively every 2 - 3 years the structure is moved away for condition surveys and general maintenance. The mooring is a separate hereditament because it is occupied exclusively by one boat for a period of more than 12 months. This provides rateable occupation. The mooring is also domestic property by virtue of s.66(4) because it is occupied by a boat which is someone’s sole or main residence.

The flat bottomed barge together with its living accommodation is a chattel. As the boat is permanently located on the mooring and only moves away every 2-3 years for maintenance, it can be considered to be enjoyed with the land. The value of the boat should therefore be included in the valuation for banding purposes.

Example 2

A family lives on a barge and pay rent to the riparian (‘of river bank’) owner for a mooring on the river bank. Water is supplied to the river bank. At times during the year, the barge goes cruising leaving the mooring vacant until its return. The mooring is a separate hereditament because it is used exclusively by one boat during the year. When the barge is present, the mooring is domestic property by virtue of s.66(4) because it is occupied by a boat which is someone’s sole or main residence. When the barge is absent, the mooring is domestic property by virtue of s.66(5) because it appears that when next in use the mooring will be domestic. However, the barge is insufficiently annexed to the land to be regarded as part of the hereditament, and the mooring only should be valued to determine the appropriate band

Example 3

Where a marina with berths contains both moored pleasure boats and boats whose occupants use them as sole or main residences the outcome may on the facts be either a composite hereditament, a combination of composite hereditament and separate domestic hereditaments or indeed separate domestic hereditaments leading to separate bands .

The presence of a composite hereditament may be indicated by identifying the following features;

• Where boats that are occupied as an individual’s sole or main residence do not have a permanent right to any specific mooring
• Evidence that boats which are an individual’s sole or main residence are actually physically moved on at least two occasions a year.
• The boat that is an individual’s sole or main residence must be moved to a different berth not merely out and shortly afterwards returning to the same berth.

The presence of separate domestic dwellings within the boundary of the marina but not included in the composite hereditament would be indicated by ;

• A boat that is the sole or main residence of an individual remaining on the same mooring for more than 12 months. If in that time it left for a few days , then it returned to the same mooring the few days away would be considered de minimus and by virtue of sec 66 (5) it would be domestic.
• If while the boat is away the marina operator temporarily puts another boat on the mooring; but the berth holder always returns to his original berth, this would indicate a separate hereditament by virtue of the boat owners ability to exclude others and hence rateable occupation.
• Where a marina operator reserves the right to move boats to different moorings but actually does not exercise the right.

[Higgs]

9 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

The policy that the legislation is intended to achieve can be summarised as follows. Although this specifically refers to boats and moorings the same principles apply to caravans and their pitches.

a) If a boat which is someone’s sole or main residence is moored “permanently” at a mooring, then the mooring is domestic property, and both the mooring and the boat are subject to Council Tax.

 

 

 

I find that in bold is ambiguous. The boat could be used anywhere, and not necessarily that mooring all the time. Planning permission is required to create a residential mooring place.

 

 

Edited August 2, 2023 by Higgs

[Tacet]

10 minutes ago, Higgs said:

 

 

I find that in bold is ambiguous. The boat could be used anywhere, and not necessarily that mooring all the time. Planning permission is required to create a residential mooring place.

 

 

In those circumstances, which essentially relate to what we call houseboats, there is only a single hereditament.  The boat is not assessed separately, it is simply that it's value is taken into account in setting the appropriate value and banding.

 

Planning permission is not required to create a residential mooring.  You might well be in breach of the planning regulations but it doesn't remove your tax liability if, in fact, you occupy a residential mooring.

Edited August 2, 2023 by Tacet

[Higgs]

2 minutes ago, Tacet said:

11 minutes ago, Higgs said:

 

 

I find that in bold is ambiguous. The boat could be used anywhere, and not necessarily that mooring all the time. Planning permission is required to create a residential mooring place.

 

In those circumstances, which essentially relate to what we call houseboats, there is only a single hereditament.  The boat is not assessed separately, it is simply that it's value is taken into account in setting the appropriate value and banding.

 

Houseboat - different matter. Boat - non specific.