Awful incident a Autherley Junction today.

[Tam & Di]

4 minutes ago, IanD said:

Doesn't that mean if you do get pulled backwards and hit the bank/cill/gate the rudder is more likely to get damaged/bent/unseated because it can't swing sideways out of the way?

 

Never had that happen. I think these terrible accidents are largely a matter of inexperience - if the boat suddenly surged backwards and I was for some reason on the counter I would know without having to think about it that the tiller would swing if I didn't keep a firm grip on it. I would almost certainly be stood in the hatches out of the arc of the tiller anyway, but I can't really think why I would be just stood on the counter in a lock.

 

Tam

[IanD]

1 minute ago, Tam & Di said:

 

Never had that happen. I think these terrible accidents are largely a matter of inexperience - if the boat suddenly surged backwards and I was for some reason on the counter I would know without having to think about it that the tiller would swing if I didn't keep a firm grip on it. I would almost certainly be stood in the hatches out of the arc of the tiller anyway, but I can't really think why I would be just stood on the counter in a lock.

 

Tam

I meant that if the boat is going backwards so the rudder hits the cill/bank/gate (which is causes these accidents) hard enough for the tiller to knock somebody overboard as it swings, if the tiller is tied and can't swing the end-on rudder has to stop 20 tons of boat in a very short distance (a fraction of an inch?), and is likely to get damaged as a result. A stern button takes up the impact by squashing by several inches, but won't usually protect a straight-ahead rudder -- because if it did these accidents wouldn't happen...

[ditchcrawler]

4 hours ago, trane said:

When I bought my own boat the first thing I invested in was a hinged tiller arm. It has become second nature to lift the arm whenever I go into reverse, whether I intend a long reverse or just bringing the boat to a stop in a lock/lock landing/mooring. I can then step on/off without catching the arm, and the tiller cannot catch the lock wall when in a lock and I am up working the paddles.  I had hired for many years and had found the rigid tiller to be a nuisance and potentially dangerous.

 

I have seen a couple of holes in the back of the head from them

[rgreg]

8 hours ago, Captain Pegg said:

When I use lock ladders I take nothing with me. Both centre line and windlass are thrown up to the lockside first when ascending, and left there for collection after I’m on the cabin top when descending. Just less stuff to snag.

 

Never got on with having the windlass about my person so I always carry it by hand. It increases the risk of losing it but that’s a tolerable outcome.

I carry my windlass firmly tucked into a belt; this works for me. 

[ditchcrawler]

20 minutes ago, IanD said:

I meant that if the boat is going backwards so the rudder hits the cill/bank/gate (which is causes these accidents) hard enough for the tiller to knock somebody overboard as it swings, if the tiller is tied and can't swing the end-on rudder has to stop 20 tons of boat in a very short distance (a fraction of an inch?), and is likely to get damaged as a result. A stern button takes up the impact by squashing by several inches, but won't usually protect a straight-ahead rudder -- because if it did these accidents wouldn't happen...

Somewhere like the Napton flight and I am sure its true of many others unless your stern fender is over 3 foot long the rudder blade will hit the cill long before your fender makes contact with the gates

[GUMPY]

8 minutes ago, rgreg said:

I carry my windlass firmly tucked into a belt; this works for me. 

I used to carry mine tucked into the back of my belt. Until that is I slipped one icy morning coming down the steps at the lower end of a lock and landed on my back. Ended up with weeks of back pain.

I now carry it over my shoulder tucked into my jacket/shirt.🤔

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Ange said:

Before we moved aboard I read all the MAIB reports regarding deaths involving narrowboats in order to learn any lessons. I remember the ones previously mentioned plus the one involving a fire - Lindy Lou if I remember correctly.

They were definitely very thorough.

 

I spent some time perusing the Drum Major one before venturing onto the Leeds & Liverpool. From memory (and without going back over the report) there was something perculiar about the lock design on that canal (and likely others) which allowed the boats front fender to easily get caught in the bottom gate. This was subsequently rectified by fitting boards I believe and wasnt an issue there by the time we first boated on there.

 

It is a sobering read still and a reminder of how quickly things can go belly up if one is not paying attention.

 

Sometimes I fear I would come across as a bit rude by not wishing to engage in idle lockside chit chat with gongoozlers or other lock crew.

[Rob-M]

22 minutes ago, GUMPY said:

I used to carry mine tucked into the back of my belt. Until that is I slipped one icy morning coming down the steps at the lower end of a lock and landed on my back. Ended up with weeks of back pain.

I now carry it over my shoulder tucked into my jacket/shirt.🤔

I carry mine over my shoulder tucked in my shirt but the wife keeps telling me off for stretching my collar.

[mark99]

10 hours ago, Captain Pegg said:

When I use lock ladders I take nothing with me. Both centre line and windlass are thrown up to the lockside first when ascending, and left there for collection after I’m on the cabin top when descending. Just less stuff to snag.

 

Never got on with having the windlass about my person so I always carry it by hand. It increases the risk of losing it but that’s a tolerable outcome.

 

I prefer the "chuck it up" ref the windlass after realising that my attention was more on saving the £20 windlass falling in/gripping it/is it tucked in my shirt ok rather than than overall safety. Ie illogical diversion of thought.

Edited June 4, 2023 by mark99

[Lady M]

Or you could put a windlass holding loop, often made of leather, on your belt which should be more secure than the traditional over-shoulder method.

[MtB]

4 hours ago, alias said:

There is a search facility with some useful filters (though I don't know how well it works).

 

As I said, it doesn't work very well at all which I why I can't find the Varney's Lock fatality. Can you?

 

Firstly I know there was a full MAIB report on the Varney's Lock death because having been there, I watched out for ages for the report and I read it from end to end several times over. Secondly, the reason it was so thorough is because MAIB reports are not admissible in a court of law, so that the truth can be reported on without the authors being dragged into court, cross examined and ripped to bits by clever lawyers, just like the air accident reports.

 

But not knowing the name of the vessel (I never saw it published) I can't get any meaningful search results. 

[Guest]

35 minutes ago, MtB said:

But not knowing the name of the vessel (I never saw it published) I can't get any meaningful search results. 

 

The boat was called Harry from Kate Boats.

 

 

[ditchcrawler]

26 minutes ago, M_JG said:

 

The boat was called Harry from Kate Boats.

 

 

Now in private ownership I think

[john6767]

2 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Now in private ownership I think

It is indeed in private ownership, I will not say where it moors as that seems a bit unfair to the current owners.

[ditchcrawler]

23 minutes ago, john6767 said:

It is indeed in private ownership, I will not say where it moors as that seems a bit unfair to the current owners.

I will say no more, but I am sure they must be aware of its history 

[Tam & Di]

4 hours ago, M_JG said:

Sometimes I fear I would come across as a bit rude by not wishing to engage in idle lockside chit chat with gongoozlers or other lock crew.

And that is the major element. Working a lock is a potentially dangerous occupation, and anything else such as chit chat has to be peripheral to the main task which is concentrating on the job and doing it safely and properly. If you come across as rude, then tough tit.

 

When we're on our own Di and me barely need to pass a word in a lock - we both know exactly what we are doing, and we do it.

 

It does help if you're an antisocial git like me, but it's seen me well over our years of boating. 😁

Edited June 4, 2023 by Tam & Di

[LadyG]

13 hours ago, Captain Pegg said:

When I use lock ladders I take nothing with me. Both centre line and windlass are thrown up to the lockside first when ascending, and left there for collection after I’m on the cabin top when descending. Just less stuff to snag.

 

Never got on with having the windlass about my person so I always carry it by hand. It increases the risk of losing it but that’s a tolerable outcome.

If you throw the windlass and the centreline before climbing ladder what happens when the boat moves away as you ascend the ladder, it's quite likely your centreline will end up in the lock. I'm assuming broad lock, and your on the lock side,  but the boat is left to its own devices while you  operate the lock. I just want to be sure I have the boat , the centreline, and the windlass as I get to top of the ladder.

As a boater said to me the other day, " if something can go wrong , one day it will" Throwing my windlass on to the lock,  one day I will see it bouncing back down!

[David Mack]

8 hours ago, MtB said:

There seems to be no effective way of searching the MAIB site other than by just browsing through the hundreds of reports on it.

Putting "Drum Major", with the inverted commas, takes you straight there. If you omit the inverted commas you get lot of other results for incidents that involve drums or majors. 

As with any search engine it helps if you can be reasonably specific about what you are searching for.

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Putting "Drum Major", with the inverted commas, takes you straight there. If you omit the inverted commas you get lot of other results for incidents that involve drums or majors. 

As with any search engine it helps if you can be reasonably specific about what you are searching for.

 

Thats not the boat/incident being looked for though.

 

Putting "Harry" in the MAIB search box doesn't locate it either.

 

Nor does the name of the lock or the hire co.

[GUMPY]

Tried "Canal" under transport / maritime and shipping  then this came up

 

https://www.gov.uk/maib-reports/person-overboard-from-narrowboat-olesea-with-loss-of-1-life

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, GUMPY said:

Tried "Canal" under transport / maritime and shipping  then this came up

 

https://www.gov.uk/maib-reports/person-overboard-from-narrowboat-olesea-with-loss-of-1-life

 

I think that is the Alrewas one.

[David Mack]

5 minutes ago, GUMPY said:

Tried "Canal" under transport / maritime and shipping  then this came up

 

https://www.gov.uk/maib-reports/person-overboard-from-narrowboat-olesea-with-loss-of-1-life

The resultant Safety Flyer is still on the MAIB website at https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/safety-lessons-narrow-boat-propellers. But it really needs to be somewhere more accessible if the safety lessons are to be available to current newbie boaters.

[Captain Pegg]

1 hour ago, LadyG said:

If you throw the windlass and the centreline before climbing ladder what happens when the boat moves away as you ascend the ladder, it's quite likely your centreline will end up in the lock. I'm assuming broad lock, and your on the lock side,  but the boat is left to its own devices while you  operate the lock. I just want to be sure I have the boat , the centreline, and the windlass as I get to top of the ladder.

As a boater said to me the other day, " if something can go wrong , one day it will" Throwing my windlass on to the lock,  one day I will see it bouncing back down!

I’m really talking about narrow locks. You can’t really miss the ladder. You don’t need a centre line at all narrow locks depending on how they behave with the length of boat in question. Although when descending with with my own 35’ boat I need the line to make sure the boat stays within reach of the ladder.

 

Broad locks are a different beast and I agree it can be difficult to get the boat alongside the ladder as the water forces involved want to push you away. Thankfully those I do regularly on the Grand Union have steps up so I step off with centre line and windlass on approach. There are a few where that approach doesn’t work due to tail bridges. I may get to work out how to approach northern broad locks later this year.

 

Edited June 4, 2023 by Captain Pegg

[magnetman]

Boathook with the spike cut down and the hook reduced is useful for picking up a line from the top of the boat. 

A bit unusual and I'm not sure if it is a boat hook but this works OK on the end of a 9ft wooden pole. 

 

Also good for close quarter combat.

 

 

[koukouvagia]

I've mentioned this before, but worth repeating.  I was following a boat whose steerer was swept off the counter.  She was fiddling with an umbrella, the rudder hit an underwater obstruction, it swung round and in she went.

I always steered from the step with the tiller in the small of my back.