Awful incident a Autherley Junction today.

[Captain Pegg]

12 minutes ago, churchward said:

I can tell you for certain that the poor man died that night in the hospital.  We had to stay the next day after the incident as I was waiting for a part to arrive at Oxley Marine and Napton Narrowboats who are looking after the couple's boat was informed.   There is no difference in the reported outcome as Lloyd Chandler did not know the fatal outcome as they moved on the same day. He like us was hoping for his survival once in Hospital.

The original version sounded more promising about the prognosis. Unfortunately not to be.

[churchward]

3 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

The original version sounded more promising about the prognosis. Unfortunately not to be.

Yes, it was but that was on the day, we learned the next day that he died. I did post an update further up.

[Mike Todd]

14 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

I prefer my tiller to be pointing the opposite way to the rudder, so I can reach it from the boat ...

Look at it and you may see that in most cases it points both ways.

[peterboat]

3 hours ago, Captain Pegg said:

When I use lock ladders I take nothing with me. Both centre line and windlass are thrown up to the lockside first when ascending, and left there for collection after I’m on the cabin top when descending. Just less stuff to snag.

 

Never got on with having the windlass about my person so I always carry it by hand. It increases the risk of losing it but that’s a tolerable outcome.

Same here slippy ladders are hard enough without anything in your hands 

[MoominPapa]

3 hours ago, Captain Pegg said:

When I use lock ladders I take nothing with me. Both centre line and windlass are thrown up to the lockside first when ascending, and left there for collection after I’m on the cabin top when descending.

I've never got into the habit of throwing the windlass up before climbing the ladder because I worry that one day a miss-throw or bounce off something on the side will result in the windlass descending again and ending up in the lock, or, much worse, landing on my face/head.

 

MP.

 

[Captain Pegg]

22 minutes ago, MoominPapa said:

I've never got into the habit of throwing the windlass up before climbing the ladder because I worry that one day a miss-throw or bounce off something on the side will result in the windlass descending again and ending up in the lock, or, much worse, landing on my face/head.

 

MP.

 

It’s the rope that gets thrown up. Almost always the windlass can simply be placed next to the lock ladder just before you start to ascend. Yes it could accidentally find its way back down again but that’s still of less consequence than me accidentally finding way back down again.

 

And to add I prefer to not use lock ladders. Ideal for me is to step off at the foot and walk up steps with windlass and line in hand but not all locks are configured to make this sensibly possible.

Edited June 4, 2023 by Captain Pegg

[MoominPapa]

24 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

It’s the rope that gets thrown up. Almost always the windlass can simply be placed next to the lock ladder just before you start to ascend. Yes it could accidentally find its way back down again but that’s still of less consequence than me accidentally finding way back down again.

 

And to add I prefer to not use lock ladders. Ideal for me is to step off at the foot and walk up steps with windlass and line in hand but not all locks are configured to make this sensibly possible.

On narrow canals my main use of ladders is to re-board the boat after opening the bottom gates. Going down at least gives the opportunity to look at the security of the bolts holding the handrail in place before use. 

 

MP.

[Captain Pegg]

2 minutes ago, MoominPapa said:

On narrow canals my main use of ladders is to re-board the boat after opening the bottom gates. Going down at least gives the opportunity to look at the security of the bolts holding the handrail in place before use. 

 

MP.

When I first started single handing I used to haul the boat out but that becomes too much hard work when you do a lot.

[trane]

When I bought my own boat the first thing I invested in was a hinged tiller arm. It has become second nature to lift the arm whenever I go into reverse, whether I intend a long reverse or just bringing the boat to a stop in a lock/lock landing/mooring. I can then step on/off without catching the arm, and the tiller cannot catch the lock wall when in a lock and I am up working the paddles.  I had hired for many years and had found the rigid tiller to be a nuisance and potentially dangerous.

 

[Rob-M]

When I have boated with old working boatmen they removed the tiller bar when in a lock and placed it on the cabin top.  One of my near misses was waiting below Tyrley bottom lock on the motor whilst the butty was locked through, I had the boat going astern to pull back to the bottom gates when the paddles were raised causing the boat to crash backwards in to the gates, this forced the button over the tipcat and the rudder hit the gates with such force the tiller was whipped round.  If I hadn't been stood on the steerers step I would have been knocked in the gap between lock gate and stern and almost certainly would have gone through the blades.

 

I now always remove the tiller bar in such situations and always stand on the step.

[booke23]

14 hours ago, Stroudwater1 said:

How terribly sad. Condolences to the family, and massive thumbs up to those who were there and helped, even just looked on as sometimes too many helping can be as bad as none. You can be proud of yourselves and hope the worst memories will fade. 
 

Do all these fatalities get looked at by MIAB? I’ve looked and can’t find any reference to the fatal accident at Welford in Spring last year. I wonder how many we don’t know about? When we looked at a boat two years ago the broker took us aside to warn us the the reason it was for sale was due to a life changing accident. I hadn’t heard of it and no Google search revealed it.

 

Reminding all onboard to put the engine to neutral if someone goes overboard may help but often it seems it happens too quickly to do anything and the boater is often on their own on the stern anyway. 

 

 

The MAIB should investigate this and other similar past incidents on the canals but they tend not to for some reason.

 

I know they are the 'Marine' accident investigations branch, which would suggest they only investigate incidents related to sea going boats, however as @M_JG has pointed out they do occasionally investigate inland water incidents such as the terrible paddleboard incident in Haverfordwest https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-63895296 and the Norfolk broads fatality in 2020 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-63895296 along with other fatal incidents in the past, but not all.

 

Presumably there is some sort of threshold that has to be crossed before they investigate, but a fatality is a fatality and in my view they should all be properly investigated. 

 

 

[GUMPY]

To keep the tiller straight in locks I have for many years used tiller strings one to each side of the hatch. Works very well for me.

[MtB]

51 minutes ago, booke23 said:

The MAIB should investigate this and other similar past incidents on the canals but they tend not to for some reason.

 

I disagree. MAIB have investigated many past fatal incidents on canals including the DRUM MAJOR sinking in a lock with the particularly tragic death of several disabled people inside (IIRC), and the death of Amanda Chappell when she fell off the back of a hire boat in Varney's Lock on the southern Oxford near Cropredy in a near-identical accident to that in the OP.

 

I've read both MAIB reports in full so I know the investigations were carried out and published, but now I can't find them. There seems to be no effective way of searching the MAIB site other than by just browsing through the hundreds of reports on it.

 

 

 

 

Edited June 4, 2023 by MtB

[Captain Pegg]

1 hour ago, booke23 said:

 

The MAIB should investigate this and other similar past incidents on the canals but they tend not to for some reason.

 

I know they are the 'Marine' accident investigations branch, which would suggest they only investigate incidents related to sea going boats, however as @M_JG has pointed out they do occasionally investigate inland water incidents such as the terrible paddleboard incident in Haverfordwest https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-63895296 and the Norfolk broads fatality in 2020 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-63895296 along with other fatal incidents in the past, but not all.

 

Presumably there is some sort of threshold that has to be crossed before they investigate, but a fatality is a fatality and in my view they should all be properly investigated. 

 

 

 

I wonder if they make a distinction between accidents involving commercial operations and/or third parties versus those that are purely private boating.

[booke23]

13 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

I disagree. MAIB have investigated many past fatal incidents on canals including the DRUM MAJOR sinking in a lock with the particularly tragic death of several disabled people inside (IIRC), and the death of Amanda Chappell when she fell off the back of a hire boat in Varney's Lock on the southern Oxford near Cropredy in a near-identical accident to that in the OP.

 

I've read both MAIB reports in full so I know the investigations were carried out and published, but now I can't find them. There seems to be no effective way of searching the MAIB site other than by just browsing through the hundreds of reports on it.

 

 

 

 

 

They investigated the Drum major sinking as @M_JG already mentioned. Report here https://www.gov.uk/maib-reports/contact-and-sinking-of-narrow-boat-drum-major-while-descending-in-steg-neck-lock-on-the-leeds-and-liverpool-canal-near-gargrave-england-with-loss-of-4-lives

 

The Varney's lock incident wasn't investigated, and another fatal overboard incident on a narrowboat here https://www.gov.uk/maib-reports/person-overboard-from-narrowboat-olesea-with-loss-of-1-life wasn't investigated either, just a preliminary assessment carried out. 

 

Which illustrates my point perfectly. 

 

2 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

 

I wonder if they make a distinction between accidents involving commercial operations and/or third parties versus those that are purely private boating.

 

A reasonable assumption, but they investigate all types of fatal marine incident whether it be private, commercial or third party.  

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, booke23 said:

reasonable assumption, but they investigate all types of fatal marine incident whether it be private, commercial or third party.  

 

Maybe the BSS should take on the MAIBs role for the Inland waterways - it might be something useful for them to do.

 

The MAIB is responsible for 'the sea' (but have, in the past, investigated Inland waterways accidents)

 

 

Contents

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More information about the work of MAIB can be found in our information leaflets.

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[magnetman]

I quite like the way MAIB stands for Messing About In Boats. 

 

 

[MtB]

32 minutes ago, booke23 said:

The Varney's lock incident wasn't investigated, and another fatal overboard incident on a narrowboat here https://www.gov.uk/maib-reports/person-overboard-from-narrowboat-olesea-with-loss-of-1-life wasn't investigated either, just a preliminary assessment carried out. 

 

Which illustrates my point perfectly. 

 

I'm inclined to disagree. I took a particular interest in the Varney's Lock death as I was present when it happened. I can remember finding and reading the MAIB report on the incident about five years afterwards which ran to many pages of fine detail about exactly what happened. ISTR it actually saying she'd entered the lock with side fenders down and when she engaged a lot of astern power to keep the boat beck from the gates, one fender string broke and the boat moved back quickly and hit the bottom gates. She fell over the back taff rail into the water and was drawn under the boat by the propeller flow in astern.

 

But I can't find the report now, hence my comment about the search facility lacking.

 

 

[booke23]

16 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

I'm inclined to disagree. I took a particular interest in the Varney's Lock death as I was present when it happened. I can remember finding and reading the MAIB report on the incident about five years afterwards which ran to many pages of fine detail about exactly what happened. ISTR it actually saying she'd entered the lock with side fenders down and when she engaged a lot of astern power to keep the boat beck from the gates, one fender string broke and the boat moved back quickly and hit the bottom gates. She fell over the back taff rail into the water and was drawn under the boat by the propeller flow in astern.

 

But I can't find the report now, hence my comment about the search facility lacking.

 

 

 

I can't find it either. Maybe it was an HSE or coroners report. 

 

Didn't realise you witnessed that one, must have been traumatic to say the least. 

 

Edited June 4, 2023 by booke23

[Guest]

Just now, booke23 said:

 

I can't find it wither. Maybe it was an HSE or coroners report. 

 

Didn't realise you witnessed that one, must have been traumatic to say the least. 

 

 

 

BW investigated as the MAIB were content to leave it to them.

[Ange]

Before we moved aboard I read all the MAIB reports regarding deaths involving narrowboats in order to learn any lessons. I remember the ones previously mentioned plus the one involving a fire - Lindy Lou if I remember correctly.

They were definitely very thorough.

[alias]

22 minutes ago, MtB said:

But I can't find the report now, hence my comment about the search facility lacking.

 

There is a search facility with some useful filters (though I don't know how well it works). It doesn't distinguish inland vs other waters, but thins the herd a little. 

https://www.gov.uk/maib-reports?vessel_type[]=recreational-craft-power&report_type[]=investigation-report&report_type[]=completed-preliminary-examination

 

Edited June 4, 2023 by alias

[Captain Pegg]

1 hour ago, booke23 said:

A reasonable assumption, but they investigate all types of fatal marine incident whether it be private, commercial or third party.  

I meant as a significant factor in their decision to investigate or not rather than as a rule. Having worked with the equivalent body in the rail industry they will make a decision based on the specific circumstances of the accident. In that field there is probably no purely private operation so no direct comparison.

[Tam & Di]

2 hours ago, Rob-M said:

When I have boated with old working boatmen they removed the tiller bar when in a lock and placed it on the cabin top.

We'd certainly remove the butty tiller, but we had tiller strings to it hold it straight on the motor which was the normal way to go on in my experience.

 

Tam

[IanD]

10 minutes ago, Tam & Di said:

We'd certainly remove the butty tiller, but we had tiller strings to it hold it straight on the motor which was the normal way to go on in my experience.

 

Tam

Doesn't that mean if you do get pulled backwards and hit the bank/cill/gate the rudder is more likely to get damaged/bent/unseated because it can't swing sideways out of the way? On most boats the stern button isn't long enough to protect the rudder if this happens...