A polite plea to dawdlers.

[Mike Todd]

52 minutes ago, M_JG said:

 

I cant understand why somebody doesnt wish to make 'reasonable' progress and in doing so force somebody else to go at their pace. Not a problem on places like the A&C where there is ample opportunity to pass but on the usual canals its just imposing you wishes on somebody else.

 

It frankly smacks of arrogance.

One person's reasonable is another's oppressive. In my experience, being stuck behind a much slower boat for any length of time is extremely rare - that's perhaps why I can remember almost all of them (both?) Yes, I can get frustrated like everyone but more often by manoeuvres other than plain cruising. But I cannot recall a single instance where it made a difference to my overall timetable.

[Captain Pegg]

12 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

One person's reasonable is another's oppressive. In my experience, being stuck behind a much slower boat for any length of time is extremely rare - that's perhaps why I can remember almost all of them (both?) Yes, I can get frustrated like everyone but more often by manoeuvres other than plain cruising. But I cannot recall a single instance where it made a difference to my overall timetable.

 

Generally it doesn't. You just cruise a few minutes longer to get where you want to go. But it isn't relaxing to follow or be followed. Unless perhaps you enjoy being obstinate.

 

But different boat/steerer combinations all go at naturally different speeds for reasons that really don't matter. So just let them, because there's no good reason not to other than very temporarily.

 

 

 

Edited May 24, 2023 by Captain Pegg

[GUMPY]

9 minutes ago, M_JG said:

 

Being a nosey so and so Im looking forward to seeing your boat when it gets to RBS..

What it gets or what it is up for?

It's will be  up for £58,500

Painted 2020, blacked and 6 Anodes last week. As it's 30 years old I also had an insurance survey done last week which put the value at £60k

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Loddon said:

What it gets or what it is up for?

It's will be  up for £58,500

Painted 2020, blacked and 6 Anodes last week. As it's 30 years old I also had an insurance survey done last week which put the value at £60k

 

What it gets is none of my business really but I do like seeing the ins and outs of other boats.

[GUMPY]

14 minutes ago, M_JG said:

 

What it gets is none of my business really but I do like seeing the ins and outs of other boats.

You will have to wait a bit as they are busy with Crick so photos will be next week if we are lucky.

Edited May 24, 2023 by Loddon

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Loddon said:

You will have to wait a bit as they are busy with Crick so photos will be next week if we are lucky.

 

The way things are by the time the vid and photos get posted up it will have sold.

 

 

[David Mack]

1 hour ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

To take as an example, when passing oncoming boats I will tend to remain in the centre of the canal until almost the last minute and then turn to starboard (assuming that the other boat is going to do the same) and then as my bow passes the centre point of the oncoming boat, begin to turn towards their stern, so that we are both out of the centre channel for the minimum amount of time, because the centre is obviously where the greatest depth is going to be. 

I used to do the same, and if the other boat does likewise, the boats pass inches apart and as the sterns pass they pull both boats back into line.

But these days, boating on an ex-working boat, I always move over to my right some time before I actually meet the opposing boat. If I don't, but just carry on steaming up the middle of the canal, most opposing boaters take avoiding action long before it is needed and huddle off to the side, leaving the centre of the channel clear for me to carry on through. And then people complain about 'arrogant working boaters' that won't give way to other craft! You can't win!

Edited May 24, 2023 by David Mack

[IanD]

12 minutes ago, David Mack said:

I used to do the same, and if the other boat does likewise, the boats pass inches apart and as the sterns pass they pull both boats back into line.

But these days, boating on an ex-working boat, I always move over to my right some time before I actually meet the opposing boat. If I don't, but just carry on steaming up the middle of the canal, most opposing boaters take avoiding action long before it is needed and huddle off to the side, leaving the centre of the channel clear for me to carry on through. And then people complain about 'arrogant working boaters' that won't give way to other craft! You can't win!

I do the same as @Wanderer Vagabond -- sometimes if you move over too early (like you do) they do the same (far too early!), then as they move off to the side the water sometimes gets shallower which pushes them away from the bank and back towards the middle, then they panic and go astern and lose all steerage way and the bow of their boat swings across the canal as they try to slow down, then you have to go hard astern to stop hitting them... 😞

Edited May 24, 2023 by IanD

[GUMPY]

53 minutes ago, M_JG said:

 

The way things are by the time the vid and photos get posted up it will have sold.

 

 

When I sold Parglena in 2012 the add went live at 7pm on a  bank holiday Friday.

20mins later Dominic had an email asking to view, it sold to that man.

[Arthur Marshall]

10 minutes ago, David Mack said:

I used to do the same, and if the other boat does likewise, the boats pass inches apart and as the sterns pass they pull both boats back into line.

But these days, boating on an ex-working boat, I always move over to my right some time before I actually meet the opposing boat. If I don't, but just carry on steaming up the middle of the canal, most opposing boaters take avoiding action long before it is needed and huddle off to the side, leaving the centre of the channel clear for me to carry on through. And then people complain about 'arrogant working boaters' that won't give way to other craft! You can't win!

Twice today I've moved over to the towpath side to give room to an oncoming boat as the Macc is pretty shallow on the offside, as well as overhung with trees, and both times the oncoming boat has gone right over into the trees, leaving a huge gap between us. Mind you, the second one ignored my friendly wave and blanked me completely so maybe they were just in a grump because it's warm and sunny.

[Tacet]

3 hours ago, IanD said:

 

I'm sure the boatyard would have been happy about me delivering the boat back to them late, so long as I explained about dawdler-twat... 😉

 

My point is that the whole incident was completely unnecessary, he wasn't in a hurry so it would have been absolutely no skin off his nose to pull over and slow down for a minute or so to let me pass -- and I had asked nicely, and explained why I wanted to do this. His response was "it's not a Grand Prix", and to not just refuse to let me pass but deliberately add extra delay when he was mooring up "at home". Just plain selfish bloody-mindedness... 😞

Agreed.  It's odd when those....who think it is not a race/why the hurry/take the train if you're in a rush... are themselves sufficiently short of time to preclude letting me by

[IanD]

4 minutes ago, Tacet said:

Agreed.  It's odd when those....who think it is not a race/why the hurry/take the train if you're in a rush... are themselves sufficiently short of time to preclude letting me by

It's not being short of time, it's the arrogant assumption that since they are happy to pootle along slowly, everyone else should be too -- because they're *right*...

[Tacet]

2 hours ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

I think that you will find that nowhere have I said anything about forcing other people to 'go at my pace', in fact I have clearly stated in my first post,".....To be honest, if I'm caught up by another boat I'm quite content to pull over and let them pass....."  but you obviously missed that. The fact is that on most narrow canals, overtaking is simply a PITA because of the underwater profile of the canal (always shallower at the sides). Overtaking on wide canals and rivers, no real problem, but narrow canals not really. So you are following someone down the Rushall canal (if it's open at the moment), or the Chesterfield, or the Huddersfield and you want them to get out of your way (and inevitably run aground) so that you can overtake, that to me sounds more like arrogance.

If there is space for two boats to pass in opposite directions, there is space for one to pass the other in the same direction, given suitable cooperation and skill in both instances.

 

[Wanderer Vagabond]

2 hours ago, Captain Pegg said:

@Tom and Bex on Tatty Lucy passed @Rob-M and myself on Vulpes with no difficulty at all half way along the central section of the Walsall canal during last years BCN Challenge. The Rushall has nothing on the Walsall when it comes to weeds and shallowness.

 

The reason that was possible is because we got ourselves into a position where they could overtake because it was obvious they were much faster than us.

 

 

 

Did that involve pulling over to the side and stopping? I think that @MtB earlier in the thread mentioned that was his approach to allowing overtaking boats to pass, and realistically it is probably the easiest way to do it. Anything else invariably involves either someone running aground (given how shallow the canals generally are) or either the bow or stern drifting out as the other boat passes.

 

A while back I had to force my way past a boat on the Grand Union that was travelling at a speed that my boat simply could not cruise at. I'd spent over an hour behind him constantly going from drive into neutral and finally on a clear straight stretch decided to overtake as he wasn't going to invite me to do so. The effect is that as the pressure wave from your bow hits his stern, his bow then starts to go to port (towards your boat). As the pressure wave then travels along his boat to his bow, it pushes it away from you, and in this case he ended out in the reeds.  Can't say I felt particularly good about it, but constantly going into and out of drive, as I was doing, cannot be good for the boat. I suppose that, as others have suggested, I could simply have stopped and had lunch or a coffee break, or something, but the speed he was going, even if I'd stopped for half an hour, I'd still have caught him up again.

[IanD]

6 minutes ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

[snip]

 

A while back I had to force my way past a boat on the Grand Union that was travelling at a speed that my boat simply could not cruise at. I'd spent over an hour behind him constantly going from drive into neutral and finally on a clear straight stretch decided to overtake as he wasn't going to invite me to do so. The effect is that as the pressure wave from your bow hits his stern, his bow then starts to go to port (towards your boat). As the pressure wave then travels along his boat to his bow, it pushes it away from you, and in this case he ended out in the reeds.  Can't say I felt particularly good about it, but constantly going into and out of drive, as I was doing, cannot be good for the boat. I suppose that, as others have suggested, I could simply have stopped and had lunch or a coffee break, or something, but the speed he was going, even if I'd stopped for half an hour, I'd still have caught him up again.

 

And that is exactly the problem -- he must have been aware that you'd been on his tail for an hour, so why didn't he invite you to pass? At most places on the GU (with no moored boats!) this can be done with no big problem with a bit of co-operation. I've passed boats like this on multiple occasions (and occasionally been passed...) with no problem, and a friendly "thank you".

 

If he ended up in the reeds, this was his fault for being obstructive, not yours for overtaking.

Edited May 24, 2023 by IanD

[Wanderer Vagabond]

5 minutes ago, Tacet said:

If there is space for two boats to pass in opposite directions, there is space for one to pass the other in the same direction, given suitable cooperation and skill in both instances.

 

As I said earlier, that would be the case if the canals were dredged to the same depth across their entire width, but they aren't. The only deep bit is in the middle (on most narrow canals) and when you put two boats travelling in the same direction, neither of them will be in the deepest bit so both will be slowed down. 'Co-operation' involves one boat stopping and moving to the side (probably holding it on the centre line whilst standing on the bank), anything else is just a poor compromise. 

[IanD]

6 minutes ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

As I said earlier, that would be the case if the canals were dredged to the same depth across their entire width, but they aren't. The only deep bit is in the middle (on most narrow canals) and when you put two boats travelling in the same direction, neither of them will be in the deepest bit so both will be slowed down. 'Co-operation' involves one boat stopping and moving to the side (probably holding it on the centre line whilst standing on the bank), anything else is just a poor compromise. 

I've passed boats quite a few times on various canals and they've never had to get off with a centre line, just pull over and usually slow down to tickover (to keep steerage way) or stop (if that's what they prefer). Never had a problem with a bit of forethought and co-operation, as you pass they get pulled back out into the canal behind you. But then I've never tried to do this on a narrow/shallow section of canal, because that would be dumb...

Edited May 24, 2023 by IanD

[Wanderer Vagabond]

6 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

And that is exactly the problem -- he must have been aware that you'd been on his tail for an hour, so why didn't he invite you to pass? At most places on the GU (with no moored boats!) this can be done with no big problem with a bit of co-operation.

 

If he ended up in the reeds, this was his fault, not yours...

It is a problem, but not one I'm going to get very aerated about, it was just one problem of many to overcome. Interestingly the follow on was that we stopped for lunch at Stoke Bruene with the intention of going on through Blisworth Tunnel later. The 'slow boat' arrived about an hour or more later, then I realised that he was going to carry on towards Blisworth. That was the fastest we've ever cleared the decks and cast off, to get going before he got to us as the thought of spending a couple of hours behind him going through Blisworth Tunnels really didn't appeal

[Captain Pegg]

32 minutes ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

Did that involve pulling over to the side and stopping? I think that @MtB earlier in the thread mentioned that was his approach to allowing overtaking boats to pass, and realistically it is probably the easiest way to do it. Anything else invariably involves either someone running aground (given how shallow the canals generally are) or either the bow or stern drifting out as the other boat passes.

 

A while back I had to force my way past a boat on the Grand Union that was travelling at a speed that my boat simply could not cruise at. I'd spent over an hour behind him constantly going from drive into neutral and finally on a clear straight stretch decided to overtake as he wasn't going to invite me to do so. The effect is that as the pressure wave from your bow hits his stern, his bow then starts to go to port (towards your boat). As the pressure wave then travels along his boat to his bow, it pushes it away from you, and in this case he ended out in the reeds.  Can't say I felt particularly good about it, but constantly going into and out of drive, as I was doing, cannot be good for the boat. I suppose that, as others have suggested, I could simply have stopped and had lunch or a coffee break, or something, but the speed he was going, even if I'd stopped for half an hour, I'd still have caught him up again.

 

No, we couldn't have reached side at the location if we'd wanted. But it didn't prevent the other boat from passing without problem.

 

Often I prefer to pull to the side and stop but it's rarely if ever totally necessary if as you say both boats know what they're doing. I'm with @Stroudwater1, if you want to make it happen you can.

 

I can't say I've never overtaken a boat without being invited, generally that would be day boats of which I've overtaken many, but I have waited longer than necessary to be offered the opportunity.

 

Even on the BCN Challenge where a bit of brinksmanship between boats isn't discouraged the rules state that boats should only overtake when invited. And for balance boats that deliberately obstruct the progress of others can be docked points. 

 

 

Edited May 24, 2023 by Captain Pegg

[Iain_S]

4 hours ago, Captain Pegg said:

 

For a bit of evening entertainment I read the owners manual of a boat I moved recently and the section on bow thrusters said "they are only effective when moving in forward gear". I think I used them twice in 44 hours of cruising and neither time was I moving forward.

 

The general tone of the piece on bow thrusters was "please try not to use them, they aren't up to much".

 

The whole thing was a bit odd.

I think the word "only" should have been "least".

[agg221]

Oates is an odd boat in respect of this discussion. On a relatively deep stretch it is very fast. The question was asked earlier about what is the fastest you have gone - I am not going to declare that but suffice to say it was probably a smidge over 4mph (we can break fairly thick ice at 4mph...) However, it draws a surprisingly large amount so on a shallow stretch or through a bridge hole it will suddenly slow right up. This can confuse people, but we aren't generally being followed as we are faster on the deep stretches. I don't think we have ever held anyone up at locks either - the crew is not the most efficient, but it does know what it is doing and most roles are interchangeable, including steering between three of us at least.

 

Where we run into problems following very slow boats is that we do need to run to a bit of a timetable and there are consequences if we don't. We might go out for a weekend, or up to a week but at the end we have to get back as the children have school and my wife and I have work. It's not optional. We will have contingency built in, but not enough for an extra day. On the last day, we might plan to cruise for 6hrs and would be OK if that became 8. From the bottom of Audlem to our mooring is normally 3.5hrs. We are fine if that becomes 4.5hrs and OK if that becomes 5hrs (and the world won't fall apart if it's longer) but when, for example, the person on the boat ahead of you decides that he won't bother doing the locks because you can do them for him while he stands chatting to the two guests on his boat, that is galling. On one occasion, the four of us worked both our boat and the two boats ahead of us up the flight - that's pushing it. If we didn't get the boat back, someone would face a long walk to the car, followed by a 3hr drive back the following weekend, boat it back and another long walk back to pick up the car and drive it 3hrs home. It's not a trivial consequence.

 

If somebody has chosen a slow dawdle through the countryside then there is no reason they shouldn't have one, but the impact of adding more than about 3hrs to our journey is that we will still be driving home at midnight with work the next day, when they are comfortably moored up for the night. Everyone should be free to enjoy their boating the way they want to, but not at the expense of others who may have different needs.

 

Alec

Edited May 24, 2023 by agg221

[Captain Pegg]

1 minute ago, Iain_S said:

I think the word "only" should have been "least".

 

Indeed. They are for trimming the boat not steering it.

[Mike Todd]

11 hours ago, Tacet said:

If there is space for two boats to pass in opposite directions, there is space for one to pass the other in the same direction, given suitable cooperation and skill in both instances.

 

The hydrodynamics don't quite work that way . . . 

 

overtaking is not the same as passing (time to do it, for one - hence need greater length free of anything else)

[Midnight]

14 hours ago, Loddon said:

I have 5hrs river boating and  6hrs canal boating left to do. Hopefully won't meet any dawdlers or speedsters in that time.

Rothersthorpe could be a problem if we get behind a numpty🤔

We came up Rothersthorpe last Monday, never saw another boat going up or down. Many locks were full so maybe someone in front or they leak full.

[Alan de Enfield]

12 hours ago, Tacet said:

If there is space for two boats to pass in opposite directions, there is space for one to pass the other in the same direction, given suitable cooperation and skill in both instances.

 

 

And, sufficient length of suitable canal.

It takes 'seconds' to pass an oncoming boat, but to overtake can take 'minutes' and 100s of yards unless the boat being overtaken actually 'pulls in'.